5D Mk2 &/or T1i / 500D question

<p><strong>Please note,</strong> <em> I am addressing this question to people with direct experience of the issues I raise, please only answer if you own either of the cameras and also if you are using the video in a PAL region.</em><br>

<br /> I am a broadcast camera operator and final cut editor, I currently shoot on Digibeta, DSR-DVCAM and compact HDV, I am in a PAL video region (UK) and despite some reservations, am gradually being seduced by the idea of video in a DSLR.<br>

I will continue to shoot on full-size video cameras (perhaps even alongside the DSLR for audio) so this question is really in the context of augmenting my kit for specialist applications than replacing what I'm already using.<br>

A couple of questions:<br>

I understand that both cameras shoot at 30fps (I know there is a slower 1080 mode for the t1i) obviously this is different from the PAL standard, so how are users converting? Do you do it through canons software or do you do it through your NLE suite? How fluid are the results?<br>

I know that the footage on the 5D Mk2 is 1080 and the 30fps footage on the T1i 720, but is this widescreen or 4:3? <br>

Any demos I've had appear to show the full area of the LCD, which would make it 4:3 or therabouts, is there a 16:9 mode? <br>

Is it possible to display 16:9 guides?</p>

<p>My primary interest is going to be using superwide lenses (well 17-40) tilt shift lens (24 mk1) and maybe even a lensbaby 3G or muse, as these are areas I cannot replicate with a video camera. Obviously full frame is going to be better for this, has anybody else tried this? Have you any results I could see?<br>

I am on FCP 6, which can integrate different types of footage in one timeline, has anybody tried intercutting footage from their DSLR with footage from HDV, DVCAM or Digibeta? I understand there will be downconversion required to standard def has anybody cut in this way? How were the results?<br>

I realise this is more video and that there is a video forum, however as this question is specifically for those using the Canon EOS system I hope the moderator shall allow this post to stay in this thread.</p>

 

<p>Wow, all those questions can probably be fully addressed at dvxuser.com, they have many video experts shooting with 5d2 in pal countries. They even have a dedicated section for 5d2 camera. I doubt you will get any useful reply here because most of us here exclusively shoot stills only with 5d2/t1i. I do shoot video and use a PC. I use cineform conversion SW and edit with vegas pro 8. With FCP you should have no problem as I understand that the .mov files are native to that SW.</p>

<p>Just understand that there is a sensor size difference between the two cameras which effects the effective performance of the lenses used. In stills the 17-40 will actually perform like a 27.2-64 lens when shooting stills on the T1i and you don't get true wide angle imaging. I don't know how the video performance is effected. However, I have bodies with both types of sensor and the you only get true wide angle performance on the full size sensor of the 5D. However, the telephoto performance on the X1i is apparently 1.6 greater than the 5D. I don't know how any of this works with video.</p>

<p>If wide is your primary interest I think the 5D2 is the way to go. I have seen many people using a 14mm fisheye with the video on the 5D2.</p>

<p>I have and shoot with the canon 5D Mark II. It is not only 30FPS it is anywhere between 1/30 and 1/4000 with the newest canon firmware which now allows for manual controls. The Camera comes with firmware 1.0.7 the latest is 1.1.0 or something. I have cut video going between my Canon GL1 (Video Camera) and the 5D Mark II. They look totally different. The GL1 is good, but the 1080 P is soooo much sharper and clearer that it makes the Canon GL1 look kind of strange. The GL1 I think Zooms and Pans a little smoother and focuses better. The 5D Mark II is a little hard to get autofocus correct so I always use manual. But I am using 85 1.2L wide open for very shallow dof. I LOVE my 17-40 F4L for Video use but I shoot a lot in the evenings and indoors natural light and would recommend faster glass. If you get the 5D Mark II try to spring for the 16-35 F2.8 or fast primes. Also, you can change the 5D mark II to shoot a 720 to match your other camera this also saves tons of space on your CF cards. The 1080P chews through space so fast you will need the new 16 or 32 GB UltraDMA cards.</p>

<p>Where can you change it to shoot 720? I have the new firmware and I am not seeing it. 1080 is just to huge for casual use.</p>

<p>I am a film shooter of 25+ years experience but until I got the 5DII have never really shot video. I have owned consuemr video cameras but they tend to sit in the cupboard. My kids all ski race (I do this recreationally) and I have shot video with the 5DII. The quality of 5DII video is amazing and the new software allows focusing which was an issue. While I claim no expertise I have a few observations:<br>

The 5DII video imposes a huge processor load - almost everyone I know cannot play the 1080p videos as their PC is not powerful enough - so bear in mind this cost I think Canon states dual core plus 3Mb RAM and a graphics card as the minimum.<br>

If you play camera to TV you will need to buy a $50-$100 Mini HDMI-HDMI cable as this is the only way to get good quality on a TV from the camera<br>

UDMA cards are best but if you only shoot short sequences an 8MB card will be fine<br>

The 5DII video is subject to white balance issues - I only see this when I shoot ski racing but even though I set the white balance with an Expodisk I find that the snow colour changes as I pan - this is not a bigf deal as almost no one else notices as they look at the skier not the snow!<br>

Evan at 30fps the video is not good enough for sharp slow motion or frame by frame play of a skier - even in slalom where the speed is around 50km/h. I suspect that the 24fps of the cheaper models is a lot worse.<br>

You need to get the microphone of the camera if you plan to zoom or focus the lens. Even with USM lenses you hard the noise on the 5DII. I only really shoot video (not audio) so I have not used an external microphone but you can hear zooming and focusing on the internal 5DII mic. I believe the other bodies do not have connectors for an external mic.<br>

The thing about the 5DII video is the quality for more static situations. One of the kids had to make a 5 minute video where he played a news reporter. This is an easy subject as the we quickly rigged a studio at home - set up lighting and set the camera. The quality of the output when displayed on a large HDTV (using HDMI) blew me and everyone else away - the quality looked better than a CBC HD broadcast.<br>

For lenses the DSLR is an order of magnitude better than a good consumer HD video camera. The 300 f2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 are the lenses I use the most. I have the 16-35 F2.8 II but have only used it once for video. This lens is amazing however and I love it.<br>

As far as I know the 5DII only shoots 4x3 - my HDTV allows me to strech this to fit 16x9 but I don't usually do this. Interestingly while i notice the short / fat people impact of pulling a 4x3 image onto 16x9 most people do not. Indeed the default in US and canadian hotels with HDTVs appear to be setting the TV so it shows 4x3 video in 16x9!<br>

My final point is that the 5DII video looks more like the output from a high end TV camera not a video camera. Modst of the ski coaches would love to shoot with a DSLR - the issue is the price and the fact that you run out of storage rapidly.</p>

<p>Thanks Philip,<br>

I have two suggestions that may help the problems you are having:<br>

White Balance: Use the preset for outdoors sunny or outdoors cloudy, don't trust AWB as it will tack and change as the camera moves or light changes.<br>

Slow-Mo quality: The frame rate is what it is and you can't change that, however, if your individual frames are blurred then it is likely to be motion blur rather than a fault of the cameras transport rate. As with stills photography the way to reduce motion blur is to set a faster shutter. In theory whatever exposure settings you would use for stills capture would work just as well for video, you wouldn't capture ski slopes with a 1/30th in stills (unless you wanted the blur) so don't do it in video.<br>

The 'ideal' shutter speed for video is usually 1/50 or 1/60 depending on your tv region, but for fast moving subjects it is common to use faster shutters.</p>

<p>Thanks again for sharing your experience.</p>

<p>A lot of good suggestions here, but some wrong info, too. I can only speak for the 5D2. It does output 16:9 when in 1080p, but use 4:3 when in 720p. Frame rate is fixed at 30fps, even with the latest firmware. I've seen people convert this to 24fps. There are websites, such as http://www.cinema5d.com which are full of details on how this can be done, and would be the place to find out how PAL conversion is best achieved along with answers to your other questions. When shooting moving subjects, you mustn't use a fast shutter speed because it will result in jerky motion in playback; something like 1/30-1/60 is typically appropriate. This means that individual frames will have motion blur, but this is normal.</p>

<p>Hi Paul,</p>

<p>I'm also in the UK and I have the 5D2. The 5D2 definitely shoots in widescreen. When in movie mode you get two 16:9 guide bars that appear at the top and bottom of the screen. I never use it in the 720 mode, I always shoot in the full 1080 mode. You also don't need to spend a fortune on UDMA cards. Any card with a write speed of 8+MB/s works great. I bought a 32GB Kingston CF card for £55 and it is great, even for longer clips.</p>

<p>I read somewhere that although the files are 'officially' 30fps, they are actually shot at 29.97fps. Apparently there is a line of code in the header of each movie file that states 30fps. Perhaps this can be changed. Apparently some users were experiencing loss of audio sync in longer clips. I think they corrected this by somehow altering the code in the file header to the actual rate of 29.97fps.</p>

<p>I am a complete video novice but I have made a couple of short video/photo compilations in iMovie and I find it best to convert all video files to a more suitable format for editing using a free program called MPEG Streamclip. Once they're converted I drop them into iMovie for editing. Many people who use the 5D2 for video use MPEG Streamclip and also Final Cut.</p>

<p>I heard that the 5D2 was used for some scenes in the latest Harry Potter movie. Also, I believe the movie 'Iron Man' was shot with the 5D2. So, the 5D2 is definitely a serious piece of kit. The short clips I have filmed are stunning.</p>

<p>The 5D2 will be a far better choice over the 500D. It will give far superior results when filming in low light. Also, you'll have a far shallower depth of field with the 5D2 for real Hollywood style effects.</p>

<p>Hi Jamie,<br>

yeah the 29.97 is the frame rate for NTSC. Would be nice if Canon realised they had customers outside Japan and the States (who usually pay well over the US and Japan prices into the bargain)<br>

I'm familiar with MPEG streamclip though I've not found it to be brilliant at frame rate conversion but cheers for the heads up.<br>

I'm not particularly after hollywood style effects, and for the bulk of stuff I will still use the DSR and Digi (powered zoom lens, manual aperture ring, professional audio, 3ccd etc etc) but I don't have superwide zooms, tilt-shifts or decent macros for these cameras, so the 5Dm2 would be used for these situations.<br>

I also want to shoot some test interviews with my 50mm at f1.8 or the 70 macro at f2.8 to see how it looks, could be very intimate.<br>

It's more about increasing my range than replacing anything I'm using already.<br>

Do you edit on a NTSC or PAL timeline?<br>

How do you output?<br>

Thanks again.</p>

<p>Hi Paul</p>

<p>I am a complete amateur at video so I can't help you much with the technical side of things. I edited completely in PAL but I can't remember what format I used for the output (I am at work at present and don't have my Macbook to hand).</p>

<p>I used MPEG Streamclip to convert the video to the Apple Intermediate Codec for easier editing. If you don't, any changes you make will need to be rendered each time (as far as my basic knowledge understands). As far as I am aware, I did not use MPEG Streamclip to alter the frame rate. I left it at 29.97.</p>

<p>The Streamclip conversion settings I was given by another user were:</p>

<p><br /><strong>Compression:</strong> <em>Apple Intermediate Codec for HD or DV-NTSC for SD</em><br /><strong>Frame Size:</strong> <em>(A supported FCE frame size, for example 1920x1080, 1440x1080, 720x480, etc. The supported frame size you choose should be as close to your original frame size as possible)</em><br /><strong>Frame Rate:</strong> <em>29.97</em><br /><strong>Sound:</strong> <em>Uncompressed Stereo 48kHz</em><br /><br>

When I said Hollywood effects, I simply meant the shallower depth of field. So, when you plan on shooting your test interviews with your 50mm f1.8 you will get a much more intimate look (shallower depth of focus) using the 5D compared to the 500D because of the larger sensor area of the 5D. Also remember that there is no manual aperture control on the 5D when shooting video. You could attach your 50mm f1.8 and it may start filming using an aperture of f11 which would be really annoying if you're after a shallow depth of focus. The easiest way to get around this is to remove the lens from the camera and then reattach it just slightly i.e. push it into place on the body but don't turn it fully clockwise until it locks into position... just turn it a tiny bit to stop the lens falling off (make sure you have taken precautions to actually prevent the lens falling off!). The aperture on the camera will then show up as 0.0 but you will have forced the camera to use the lens wide open (in the case of the 50mm lens it will be shooting at f1.8). Another way to do it (and a safer way to do it) is to buy the cheapest, nastiest and shortest extension tube you can find. That way you can attach the lens properly without it falling off but the aperture will still remain wide open at all times.</p>

<p>I must stress that the 5D2 movies are phenomenal in low light, especially with the 50mm f1.8 lens. It really is quite incredible and the quality will be in a different league compared to the 500D.</p>

<p>Cheers Jamie,<br>

Didn't know there wasn't manual exposure (I tend to lock shutter at 1/50th and use a combination of NDs & dedolights to get the light right for my chosen aperture.<br>

I thought the recent firmware upgrade permitted manual control during video? Hmm, if not I need to write it off all together.<br>

Maybe the Mk3 will support PAL and allow manual control :o(</p>

<p>Hi y'all - just to clear something up. There is no 720 size on the 5D mk ii. The options are 1080 and 480 (SD). Even the new firmware (1.1) does not have a 720 setting.<br>

http://wiki.planet5d.com/index.php?title=Mkii_video#File_Sizes</p>

 

<p>Hi Paul,</p>

<p>Yes, manual control of exposure and a frame rate of 24fps is what everyone has been screaming for since its release. It doesn't look like we're going to get it. The 5D movie mode surpassed all Canon's wildest expectations. It was introduced after requests by Reuters so that their photographers could capture footage if a film crew wasn't available. Canon was taken a bit by surprise by the reaction of the public, particularly after Vincent LaForet made it famous. Perhaps Canon now regrets not including manual control and a different frame rate at the design stage or maybe they purposely omitted those features to protect their range of pro video cameras. I wouldn't be surpised if the upcoming EOS 1D4 brings us full manual control of HD video at 24fps as it will help rebalance the impact of the Nikon D3 which (along with the AF problems of the 1D3) severely dented Canon's leadership of the DSLR world.</p>

<p>Thanks again for all the input, I might hire a body from Calumet and see how I get along with it. I had reservations and I think that for my purposes these were well realised.<br>

Cheers</p>

<p>Hi Paul</p>

<p><strong>IMPORTANT UPDATE</strong><br>

<strong></strong><br>

It seems you were right. I have just been on another thread and it appears that full manual control of shutter speed and aperture has been granted in the form of the latest firmware release. I didn't know this. I'll be updating my firmware this weekend to try it out. So, perhaps the 5D2 will be worth considering after all.</p>