Sleazy selfies

And an honest one.

Yes. I took you at face value.

damn few artful "nudes" are found in f@c3b00k photo groups

I don't doubt that. I'm not on Facebook and have no intention ever to join. I was questioning your comment: "I do wonder how and when "art photography" came to mean photos of girls and women either nekkid or partly unclothed ..." It always meant that. Those on Facebook and on PN, for that matter, may think of it as "art photography" and I think of much of it, as I think you do, as anything but (or butt, as the case may be).

Robert Mapplethorpe biopic

Haven't seen that one. I recommend Patti Smith's book, Just Kids. It's as much about Mapplethorpe and Mapplethorpe and her as it is about herself. She talks about his creative genius as well as his buying into the Andy Warhol circle of "success."

The rampant disinformation (read: lies), the bullying, the sexting, even the drunken high school partying photos that can come back to haunt you, are all different degrees of the same social media issue.

The overarching moral here I think is that we must be mature enough to deal with the price of freedom. That is, to be truly free people, we must accept that nothing is ever going to be 100% safe. And that is the way it must be.

If you go for 100% freedom, you have perhaps 10% safety. If you go for 100% safety, you have perhaps 10% freedom. But if you go for maybe 90% freedom, you get perhaps 90% safety. It's the diminishing returns formula, this time applied to society.

You can't learn from being safe. You can't learn from success, either. You only learn from making mistakes, and hopefully observing the mistakes of others. Our elders cannot learn our lessons on our behalf. We have to make them ourselves.

I recall many years ago I used to occasionally be a bit of a smart alec on forums. I don't think I was ever nasty, but I could be smart, indignant and occasionally aggressive. I realized that this was not conducive to conversation, engagement, relationships or learning. And so I thought, cut the crap and don't pour fuel on the fire. If people don't want to engage productively, responding aggressively isn't going to change anyone's mind. I have standards, but the best way to share and keep those standards is to act like a grown-up.

I had the freedom to make mistakes, I made them, and I learned from them. It took a while, though!

You only learn from making mistakes

I think young people will, of course, make mistakes and will hopefully learn from them. But the article makes clear that some of these mistakes are devastating and some of them they simply don't recover from. In such dire cases, we can certainly and should certainly at least try to guide them and society's duty is to come up with ways to work with technology that keeps it as safe as possible. Not 100 per cent safe, which would only be a straw man's goal. The freedom to make mistakes is one thing. The freedom to ruin your life, at a very young age and before you have the maturity to achieve full responsibility for yourself, is quite another.

We, thankfully, took away the freedom of children to be laborers back in the 30s. It meant a hardship for some families who relied on that income but it was a good move and a good restriction imposed on society. Our freedom to drive safely comes with the restriction of having to wear seat belts and obey traffic restrictions. In fact, sometimes it's through restriction that freedom can be attained and maintained.

Mostly, society is a balancing act, not a one-way street. Some things are best self taught. Others will have to be learned from others. And some things must be imposed.

But the article makes clear that some of these mistakes are devastating and some of them they simply don't recover from.

Ah, yes, I agree. You don't let kids - or adults - play in traffic. I was speaking too generally.

You can also learn from the mistakes of others. The lessons learned thatcare worthwhile passing on are part of upbringing and education. We don't have to make the same mistakes over and over again. We just have to listen to people such as parents, teachers and other people who know.

Doing that is not quite as common as it used to be. FOMO, and all that.

For those of you on Twitter or TikTok, check out #silhouettechallange. This challenge invites everyone to post 'sexy' videos of themselves in silhouette. Almost 100% of the participants seem to be ordinary young women. The 'top 10' videos are unsurprisingly those videos that are not 100% 2-D .

I have no moral views on this. Most female participants seem to see it as a 'bit of fun' and a chance to show off their 'sexy moves' anonymously (in silhouette). Still, the great difference between the number of female and male participants suggests that females are still the main (willing) providers of sexualized content. At least for this challenge. I should add that many female tweeters have congratulated each other on their video responses to the challenge.

Most female participants seem to see it as a 'bit of fun' and a chance to show off their 'sexy moves' anonymously (in silhouette). Still, the great difference between the number of female and male participants suggests that females are still the main (willing) providers of sexualized content.

Many people in society are "willing" to do a whole lot of things not as much based on genuine personal choice as much as what they've internalized of cultural norms and expectations. That women or men seem willing to do certain things and even seem to be having fun doing them doesn't mean such things are healthy or advised. As culture changes, so will our "willingness" to engage in certain behaviors. As our relationship to the relatively young phenomenon of the Internet changes, so will mindless Internet memes change ... unless society is just a hopeless mess after all.

I have no moral views on this.

Having no moral view is having a moral view!

Surprised to find this convo active & ongoing. Surprised again, to find the OP here is the OP "over there". Heh. Life is filled with surprises, it seems.

I'm all for freedom of expression and I'm also all for freedom of response. Silence is often complicity. Glad you spoke up and asked him some questions ... which still remain unanswered.

I agree that people's behaviour is influenced by the cultural norms and expectations of their peer group. And, indeed, these can become 'internalized'. My personal view is that relatively few people become able to free themselves of 'internalized' cultural norms and expectations and accept the consequences. In this thread, we've talked about the influence of media and the music industry on the behaviour of some groups of young women (and men). The motivation for young people to join in with a social trend/meme in the pee peer group has been around for all my life: rockers, mods, hippies, punks, goths, clubbers, ... the list goes on. And adults are subject to cultural influences too, either of their chosen peer group and/or their locality.

Yes, it is a moral view (and my internalized Dutch cultural norm ;)) to 'live and let live', at least on this topic. It may not be entirely healthy or advised but I see it as far less unhealthy or ill-advised than, for example, doing drugs, being in an abusive relationship, etc. I have (non-religious) faith in most youngsters to eventually grow out of it and start posting selfies with friends, latte's, and pets.

Many people in society are "willing" to do a whole lot of things not as much based on genuine personal choice as much as what they've internalized of cultural norms and expectations. That women or men seem willing to do certain things and even seem to be having fun doing them doesn't mean such things are healthy or advised. As culture changes, so will our "willingness" to engage in certain behaviors. As our relationship to the relatively young phenomenon of the Internet changes, so will mindless Internet memes change ... unless society is just a hopeless mess after all.

 

Having no moral view is having a moral view!