Good Inexpensive MF Starter?

OK. I looked around in here and could not find a question

similar to this, so hopefully it doesn't get filtered out. I would like

some recommendations on a good starter camera for MF. I

don't want to spend alot of money, mainly because I really don't

know if I want to pursue the format until I give it a try. I don't care

if it's used/old, I just want some suggs.

the Mamiya TLR's. Do a seach and you will get everything about them

A twin lens reflex is a good place to start on a budget.You can get Minolta's,Rollei's,Yashica's,& Mamiya's& Zeiss TLR's for $200-500 (or less.)The Mamiya's are a little more,but nice because of their interchangable lenses.If you can afford it,a prism is nice,that upside down & backwards things can drive a begginer nuts.Make no mistake a 1960's TLR for $150 can produce startlingly sharp images today!All of these suggested cameras have real decent glass and will produce professional results,its just getting used to their manual operating & viewing systems that takes a little time.Sometimes slow is better,this is the case here.

If you have a few more $$ consider a used 645 or 6x6 SLR these can be had for $300-1000.Mamiya 645's are available cheap used, and can be resold for what you paid in 6 months if MF aint for you.

Good luck & happy shooting.

Yashica Mat, Rolleicord, Minolta Autocord. Set aside $100 for a service if you want everything to work correctly.

Basic advice for buying a TLR: (if you buy online, ask the seller to do this) open the camera, set the shutter to B, hold down shutter release, and look through the shooting lens (i.e., towards a light source). You want to be absolutely certain that the lens is perfect. I bought and returned several on eBay that had scratches, fungus, knicks, and chips in the shooting lens (even after the seller did the "test" for me). So make sure you get a money back guarantee. An honest seller will offer this, as will most shops. In fact, it's probably worth it to go ahead and spend the few extra bucks to buy from a reputable shop. What you save in headaches, returns, etc. will make it worth it.

 

In your post, you said you didn't want to spend a lot of money. What range does that cover? One man's ceiling is another man's floor. Give an idea of how much you'd like to spend, and the recommendations can be a lot more focused. Also, what kind of shooting do you plan to do?

 

Garvey

The words inexpensive and Medium format should not be used in the same sentence.

<i>The words inexpensive and Medium format should not be used in the same sentence.</i>

<p>

Well, unless you count a Brownie Hawkeye - available from your local thrift store for about a buck :-)

 

All of the above recommendations are good. Mamiya is still your best buy for a versatile TLR in my opinion.

Matthew,

 

An alternative to buying a used camera would be to rent one (or different types) over a few weekends. This would allow you to try out different formats (e.g., 6x6, 6x4.5, 6x7) as well as different types of cameras (e.g., TLRs, SLR, rangefinder). Of course, the cost for a series of rentals and accessories could exceed the price of a used TLR, but you will get better coverage of what is available to you.

 

Have fun experimenting.

 

-Nick

For those of you that have asked (for clarity):

 

About $300 seems to be resonable for me (although a buck will do as well!).

 

Also, I plan on doing mostly B/W shots with it.

 

Changeable lenses would be a plus too.

 

Thanks for the responses so far. They're helping.

<p>I was in pretty much the same situation a little while ago, and I am now using my Dad's old Yashica-Mat LM (free! How's that for inexpensive?), but I did have to have it cleaned and serviced (so not totally free afterall, but close enough!). The lens still has some fungus in it, but it still seems to take wonderful photos. I've run Fuji Provia 100 slide film through it, and I love the results. Fantastic. The images look sharp, and I can't see any effect from the fungus, or at least not in the photos that I've taken. All shots were metered using the built-in Selenium cell meter.</p>

 

<p>Bottom line? Try a TLR (Rollei - don't know which one, Yashica-Mat, around USD 200?) or a restored folder camera, which are nice for their compactness (Agfa Isolette, Zeiss Ikon, etc., USD 15 - 300, depending on condition).</p>

 

<p>Personally, I am using my Dad's Yashica TLR, and am looking for a folder myself (currently I'm looking at some products being offered by seller 'certo6' on eBay).</p>

 

<p>Or maybe you might like to try a modified/fixed Kiev 88 from Kiev/USA (<a href="http://www.kievusa.com/">http://www.kievusa.com/</a>). I believe that they have a Hassy-like camera (modified and CLA'd Kiev 88 body, waist-level viewfinder, 80mm lens, 120 roll film back) for USD 499.</p>

 

<p>Also, read this article:

<a href="http://www.williamsphotographic.com/suggest.html">http://www.williamsphotographic.com/suggest.html</a></p>

 

<p>I am not related to any of these people/companies in any way! Just sharing my own research!</p>

 

<p>Jason</p>

I am very happy with the Mamiya TLR system I began acquiring four years ago. Right now I have a C3 body, 65 and 135mm lenses with shades (a requirement for this camera) and a porrofinder, which is a somewhat cheaper prism-style finder with mirrors. (I mostly use the waist-level finder anyway.) Total cost about $800, the cost of a single upper-end 35mm body. Most of my use is studio with flash, thought I'm teaching myself to do more hand-held general work. Though I occasionally lust after something sexier, it's really hard to convince myself there are many photos the Mamiya can't take.

 

Good luck.

The TLR's can certainly be good value and produce excellent results. That said, I personally hate the TLR design for its ridiculous ergonomics. They are just about tolerable if used on a tripod. A yashica TLR was my first MF camera so I took the classical advice as well. I sold the camera fairly soon and traded in some of my 35 mm equipment for an MF SLR. If you are really stuck on a TLR the Mamiya C330 at least offers the possibility of changing lenses and so is much more versatile.

 

If you are on a budget, then bear in mind that 35 mm can produce excellent results up to about A4 size. The only advantage of medium format is if you want to make larger prints or submit larger slides to impress editors (Yes you will get smoother gradation, and record more detail but this will not automatically improve your pictures). I would wait until you can afford either an SLR or rangefinder camera before investing in MF. The Pentax 645 (manual focus version) would be a reasonable choice as it offers a built in prism. For handheld use a rangefinder camera such as a Mamiya 6 or FUJI is a better bet. If you like MF then you will probably want to upgrade the TLR anyway. Given a choice between a 35 mm camera or a MF TLR I would choose the 35 mm everytime.

 

Clearly my opinions reflect my way of working, but don't assume a TLR will suit you just because lots of people suggest them.

You should realise that you will need a handheld meter to use most of the

cameras recommended so far.

A Kiev 60 TTL Kit is a great package to start with (You have to buy one that works of course). You can add some very nice Zeiss Jena lenses for very little money. I bought a used but mint Kiev 60 Kit for 350 DM recently via ebay and added Zeiss Jena lenses (4,0/50 and 2,8/180 for 150 DM each). The reason for buying this camera was that I wanted to have fun with the Arsat 30 mm lens (full frame fisheye)which I have found for 300,- DM used ( I did not want to buy a 30 mm lens for my Hasselblads because I could not justify the expense). Ah yes, and then there is the 65 mm lens I found at ebay for about 120 DM. Yesterday a friend of mine gave me a Zeiss Jena 120mm lens and a Pentacon 4,0/300 (they need servicing but they were for free). This is a very cheap system to start with that gives you a lot of options and reasonable quality. I will publish the results of a Hasselblad/Kiev comparison during the next months.

 

Have fun

 

Ulrik

"(You have to buy one that works of course)" That says it all for Kiev's. I would be cautious about old cameras for which parts are no longer available as well. A reliable 35 mm camera is a much better photographic tool than a tempremental MF one. Spend a bit more and get something decent or wait until you can afford it. If you find that MF is really not for you, can always sell a reputable brand.

If you might be interested in a modular system-type camera, you might consider the Bronica S2A. Figure about $500 for a body in good working order with a Nikkor 75mm/2.8 lens, waist level finder, and switchable 12/24 back. Additional backs will be about $80 each, and each of the four main Nikkor lenses (50/3.5, 135/3.5, 200/4) can be had for under $300 each. Info at:

 

http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/bronica.html

 

If you click on my name below and go to my gallery, there are some photos made with this system in the "Travel," "Landscapes," "Portraits," and "Some Places in New York" folders.

Matthew: You might consider one of the Seagull cameras, brand new in the price range $230 to $400 (US). Shutterbug Jan. 2002 has a test report on them. My pick would be the 4A-107 which has a 75 mm f3.5 Tessar type lens and a number of other nice features. The article says the optics are very good and the shutter speeds are accurate - a good start. It even has a hot shoe which is lacking on my Rolleis. As mentioned, you would also need a light meter ($50). The other TLR's mentioned were probably a little better when they were new, but they can be a big money trap if they need fixing.

Or you migh not want to go with a Seagull, since I hear they tend to fall apart after a while. The words "good camera" and "Made in China" do not, in my experience, go together.

 

I'll throw another vote in for the Mamiya TLR. I bought a C330f with 80mm f/2.8 for $275 on eBay. I ended up with 55mm f/4.5, 105mm f/3.5, and 180mm f/4.5 lenses to better match my 35mm lens lineup (105mm is closer to my 58mm f/1.2 "normal" lens). I have been nothing but pleased with this kit.

 

The TLR setup is very helpful if you want to shoot infrared (i.e. Kodak HIE with an opaque filter) or near-infrared (i.e. Ilford SFX-200 with a nearly opaque Hoya R72 filter) because the viewing lens isn't obscured like an SLR would be.

The most fun camera I currently own is my Mamiya C220 that I bought for a total of $160 on E-bay. (Incl. freight &c). The camera may look just a tad beat up but is light tight, all speeds are in synch and the glass is clear. When you check out Mamiyas you will find that there are "black" and "chrome" lenses and that there is a pricedifference between the two. I have a "chrome" 80 mm as my one and only lens for this camera. If is quite OK and even though it would be fun to add a portrait tele (180mm) or a wide angle (55mm) I have not done it yet.

 

What I like about the camera is for one thing the bellows focusing that allows you to focus really close on things (remember to adjust for parallax!) I also like the weight (this is a TANK) and the all mechanical operation of the thing.

 

I olso own (but not use) an old Rolleicord (Good build, so-so focusing, Triotar is a lousy lens compared) and a Lubitel-2 (a thoroughly horrible camera in every sense).

Christian: I detect a bit of snobbery in your assertion that cameras made in China tend to fall apart. The Chinese tend to use old designs but from what I have seen they build solid stuff that does not fall apart. The finish may not be as good as the Japanese, but this was also true of most American-made cameras in the 30's, 40's and 50's and yet most of them still work, if you can find film for them. If you don't like Chinese stuff because it falls apart, you had better stay out of the hardware stores, clothing stores and Walmart.

Vartan said: "The TLR's can certainly be good value and produce excellent results. That said, I personally hate the TLR design for its ridiculous ergonomics."

 

I have to disagree. I use a Rolleiflex, and it's amazing how the controls just fall into the proper place when you hold it properly-- especially considering that a rectangular box looks so unwieldy at first. Additionally, if the definition of "ergonomics" includes simplicity of use as well, then I have to vote again for the Rollei. Aperture, speed, and focus-- much simpler than the super-modern SLRs we have at work.

 

Cheers,

Dave

I was in the same situation about a year ago and bought a Bronica EC with 2 backs, 3 lenses, a set of close up rings and some other things. I have around $900 invested in total. I know there is risk with older cameras but all my equipment works well and I thoroughly enjoy it. The reversed image in the waist level finder has worked wonders on my 'seeing' a scene and I enjoy doing the same shot with B & W and color by switching the backs. I take my time and carefully analyze each shot, instead of click and whir with a 35mm, then throw away 75% of the negatives. I say go for medium format, if you buy good used equipment you can recover your cost, and it will open your eyes to a whole new way of photographing.

>>The words "good camera" and "Made in China" do not, in my experience, go together.

 

 

I read in a newspaper a month ago, reporting that Minolta is planning to move "all" its production facilities to China. Partly due to the low cost. Partly due to its potential internal market.

 

 

Seagull used to make decent cameras, twenty years ago. Those were the days when cost accounting was not a business consideration.

 

 

But old state enterprises, Seagull included, are struggling in the rapid changes, especially WTO is looming ahead. These state enterprises, along with the employees plus management, are being shaken up. Perhaps this is the possible cause of quality problem.

 

 

But quality should be improving. A Japanese brand called the "Texar" is using Seagull TLR's as OEM. The test reports in Japan is not negative.

Go to AGFA Isolette, folding cheap, good lens and after you'll see if you go to another camera. I own an Isolette (compur1/500 and Solinar lens 4 elements) which is as good as a Cord, a Yashicamat...for 50$.

Bob Squires wrote:

" If you don't like Chinese stuff because it falls apart, you had

better stay out of the hardware stores, clothing stores and

Walmart."

 

EXACTLY!

 

Seriously, its not that China can't produce quality items. When

the U.S. normalized relatons with China in the 70s the quality of

Chinese goods that became newly available was superb.

However, now most Chinese merchandise seems to have every

possible corner cut to meet a price.I will not buy Chinese tools at

a hardware store (if I have a choice)because I've had ample

experience with their falling apart. Neither would I buy a Chinese

camera. FWIW, an early 50s Rolleiflex, including the cost of a

CLA from someone like Krikor Marellian, wouldn't be much more

than the most expensive 4 element lensed version of a Seagull.

Granted, the initial picture quality will most likely be identical, but

you'll be able to pass the Rollei down to your kids. The Seagull

may only last long enough to shoot a couple of dozen roll of film.

{I'll also grant that the old Rollei focusing screen will be darker

than the one on a Seagull and that good(i.e. Maxwell) screens

are expensive, but I think its a worthwhile tradeoff).