problem w T7i and sport scene mode

At the high school that I help the yearbook, one of the girls shot a volleyball game, where the pix were not sharp :-(

Camera = Canon T7. Relevant parameters were Auto ISO, Max Auto ISO = 25600, sport scene mode.

Sport scene mode was used because most of the kids are button pushers, not photographers. Otherwise I would have them on shutter priority.

I checked the images:

- The ISO was from 2000 to 5000, so changing, but clearly not maxed out.

- The shutter speed was down at about 1/125 and 1/160. This is way too slow for sports in general and volleyball specifically.

So, the question is, why would the camera in sport scene mode be keeping the shutter speed down at 1/125 and 1/160?

As I understand, sport scene would use the fastest possible shutter speed, to freeze action.

The auto ISO was not near maxed out, so clearly it could go higher, to get the shutter speed up.

Trying to figure out how the sport scene mode works has not been easy. The manual leaves out a lot of data.

I did figure out that the AF was in area mode rather than single subject, and that has been fixed.

At the high school that I help the yearbook, one of the girls shot a volleyball game, where the pix were not sharp :-(

 

Camera = Canon T7. Relevant parameters were Auto ISO, Max Auto ISO = 25600, sport scene mode.

Sport scene mode was used because most of the kids are button pushers, not photographers. Otherwise I would have them on shutter priority.

 

I checked the images:

- The ISO was from 2000 to 5000, so changing, but clearly not maxed out.

- The shutter speed was down at about 1/125 and 1/160. This is way too slow for sports in general and volleyball specifically.

 

So, the question is, why would the camera in sport scene mode be keeping the shutter speed down at 1/125 and 1/160?

As I understand, sport scene would use the fastest possible shutter speed, to freeze action.

The auto ISO was not near maxed out, so clearly it could go higher, to get the shutter speed up.

 

Trying to figure out how the sport scene mode works has not been easy. The manual leaves out a lot of data.

 

I did figure out that the AF was in area mode rather than single subject, and that has been fixed.

don't know but it's easy to set the shutter and aperture in manual mode and let the ISO stay on auto

The base problem is the kids are page editors first, not photographers.

So I have to use the simplest method for the "button pushers," which is why I went with the sport scene.

1. What were the typical APERTURES that the camera selected?

2. What was the LENS that the girl was using?

"SPORTS" Mode (The Running Man Icon) works to an algorithm, and that algorithm that takes into account many variables and as you mentioned prioritizes Shutter Speed to be fast; my experience is not necessarily the fastest possible speed available.

My experience with "SPORTS" Mode is that it will attempt to keep the ISO down if possible, and also the fact that "SPORTS" Mode automatically selects FAST DRIVE Mode seems to somewhat limit the Shutter Speed priortization aspect of the algorithm especially if shooting with a "kit lens" or a similar slow lens and in relatively low light.

I am reasonably certain that "SPORTS" Mode automatically selects "AUTO ISO" - but I am not sure that the maximum ISO available is the same as if AUTO ISO is selected, manually by the photographer, when the Camera Mode is selected to one of the "Creative Modes" (i.e. M Tv Av P and B).

***

In the shooting situation that you describe, and assuming that the lighting conditions would be reasonably constant - say within three stops - I would have Auto ISO setting the upper limit to or near the maximum ISO; Evaluative Metering; and Tv Mode such that the Shutter Speed was effectively fast enough to freeze the action at the smallest MAXIMUM aperture of the lens being used. For example - if using a kit lens (18~55 F/3.5 to 5.6) then use “F/5.6” as the aperture datum. You could set a manual ISO if the lighting were constant across the playing area.

WW

#1 Aperture f4 to f5, so probably wide open.

#2 Lens = 18-135 kit lens

The max auto ISO in scene mode is not specified in the T7 manual. At least I could not find it.

Whereas, for the T3 and T5, auto ISO is indeed limited to 3200 in scene mode, vs max of 6400 in P,A,V or M modes.

I had thought that in sports mode, the auto ISO would raise the ISO to get the shutter speed high enough for sports. But 1/125 and 1/160 are definitely not fast enough for sports. I would have expected at least 1/250, but was hoping for 1/500 (which is what I was shooting at in shutter priority mode). And there was enough headroom in the ISO to get the shutter up that high.

I guess I have to go experiment with the T7 (and T5) to figure out how the auto ISO works in sport scene mode, and to see how the sports scene mode behaves.

So much for relying on the scene mode.

I got caught by the ASS-U-ME.

I was shooting myself in the configuration you recommended; manually set ISO to 12800 (lighting was consistent) and shutter priority.

Although next time I will go full manual. The light from the electronic scoreboard confused the meter, so any frame with the scoreboard in it was significantly underexposed.

The difficult part is that I shoot a Nikon D7200, but the kids are using the school's Canon T7 and T5. I am not familiar with the Canon gear, especially the scene modes, which I never used on my Nikon. Guess it is time I learned the Canon.

BTW the Canon software is great is helping me troubleshoot.

It gave me all the EXIF data and importantly, I could see what focus points the camera used.

It was the focus point display that told me that the camera was set to area/zone focus and not single point.

Area/zone focusing is of no use in a volleyball game, with many players on the court. The problem was that the area focusing could not focus on the subject in a mass of other players, half the time the wrong (closest) player was focused on.

I’m assuming that the camera is “T7i” (800D) and you’ve inadvertently omitted the “i”.

I had a squiz at the T7i User Manual out of curiosity – I can’t see any note of a limiting of the upper Auto ISO figure when in the Basic Modes, but I’d bet a Mars bar there is a limit it will be a few stops under the Maximum ISO capacity of the camera: this would follow the convention that Canon applies to their other models.

I have experience with older model “Rebel” series, shooting in similar situations with School Students using those cameras and yes, I confirm that in low light and/or with slow lenses and the ISO quite high, I typically they attained Shutter Speeds around 1/125s in the Basic “Sports” mode and that’s why I suggest that they don’t use that Mode and I set up the cameras for the Students, as I described above.

If it is an Indoor Gym, then the light is reasonably even across the playing area, albeit typically low level.

Good luck.

WW

. . . I could see what focus points the camera used. It was the focus point display that told me that the camera was set to area/zone focus and not single point.

I think the AF Selection should be a User Select Option between "Area" and "Point" when the Camera is in "Sports" Mode, so if you select Centre Point AF, then I advise to instruct the kids to keep the main person in the centre of the frame.

Actually, I'd stick the AF on centre point anyway, and tell the kids to keep the main player in the centre, whatever other camera mode selections you make.

WW

So the problem was missed focus, not motion blur because of the slow shutter speed?

Actually both, missed focus and slow shutter speed.

There was motion blur on things like serves and spikes, where the players (especially the arm) were moving fast.

I’m assuming that the camera is “T7i” (800D) and you’ve inadvertently omitted the “i”.

 

I had a squiz at the T7i User Manual out of curiosity – I can’t see any note of a limiting of the upper Auto ISO figure when in the Basic Modes, but I’d bet a Mars bar there is a limit it will be a few stops under the Maximum ISO capacity of the camera: this would follow the convention that Canon applies to their other models.

 

I have experience with older model “Rebel” series, shooting in similar situations with School Students using those cameras and yes, I confirm that in low light and/or with slow lenses and the ISO quite high, I typically they attained Shutter Speeds around 1/125s in the Basic “Sports” mode and that’s why I suggest that they don’t use that Mode and I set up the cameras for the Students, as I described above.

 

If it is an Indoor Gym, then the light is reasonably even across the playing area, albeit typically low level.

 

Good luck.

 

WW

Yes, T7i.

You confirmed the problems; lack of sufficient documentation and the operational problem :-(

Groan. More prodedures to write. Then how small are the odds that the kids will actually read and follow them? The teacher told me that the current generation of kids don't read instructions. Groan. I came from the RTFM generation.

I hope the yearbook staff next year is large enough to have a dedicated group of photographers. It will be much easier to train a group of 4 or so photographers, than to train ALL of the page editors (who have to shoot their own pictures).

... stop groaning... you wouldn't do it if you didn't love it!

good luck

William,

You are correct. Something in me wants to help the kids, or me. It sorta is like a 2nd chance to improve on my own yearbook.

William,

Thanks for the help.

I'm going to the school today, and will experiment with the camera.

William,

The T7i, sport scene mode, ISO maxed out at 6400, just as you suspected it would.

Kids went to shoot volleyball today, and I set the T7i to: shutter priority, 1/500 sec, auto ISO.

I will see how the shots turned out next week, but a quick peek at the LCD showed the exposure looked OK.

I shot full manual ISO = 12800, 1/500 sec, f/6.3.

Fantastic!

If you were attaining good exposure at ISO 12800, 1/500 sec @ f/6.3..... then the kids on Tv Mode @ 1/500s and AUTO ISO using the EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM kit lens, had a bit of latitude... I like your logic.

WW

I was shooting on M because of the electronic scoreboard and lighted sign on the scorekeepers desk. Those 2 things messed up the camera's meter the last time I shot volleyball, and I got significant underexposure if they were in the frame. Got to hand it to the architect, the lighting was even, the exposure all over the court was consistent.

I wasn't quite ready to take the kids to full M yet, I just got them off the scene mode. And I wanted to validate how even the lighting was, with ME shooting in M first.

With the consistent lighting, M really should not be a problem. Maybe the next game.

Next time, I will switch them to the shorter 18-55 lens. The extra range of the 18-135 makes the zoom a bit stiffer to work than the shorter 18-55.

I did a LOT of zooming on my Nikon 18-140, so I am going to switch to my shorter 18-70 myself, for the same reason.