Low light solutions

<p>I'm definitely an amateur but I understand how to correctly get "exposure" using Shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and the limitations of camera and lens.<br>

I am trying to get good tack sharp results in stage productions of bands and dancers who are moving alot. These subjects are stage lit and I do not want to use any flash.<br>

My equipment is D700, 70-200 f2.8 VR, 24-70 f2.8, on monopod usually.<br>

I was wondering if anyone has simple solutions for the above conditions.<br>

It seems I am limited in my quest by slow shutter speeds (usually 1/200 at best) despite fast lens', high ISO, and wide open apertures. Is this just the nature of the beast or is there a better solution??<br>

Thanks in advance for any useful tips or comments.</p>

<p>Anticipate and shoot a bunch at moments when the dancers are still or almost still. What print size is the final output? Don't be afraid to go 6400 ISO or higher if final output is not big. Learn to create good motion blur photos. Buy fast primes...</p>

<p>PS. If flash is officially not allowed, okay. If you just don't want to use it, I suggest you learn... </p>

<p>You could try the F1.4 50mm, but then you have awfully little DOF.<br /> But stages are often brighter than it seems at first sight. Depends on the lights. You will need to carefully select an exposure to avoid blown out highlights. Often this lets you expose at reasonable speeds and F-values. And don't be afraid of high ISOs.<br /> Good luck!</p>

<p>Hi Brian. I assume that calling 1/200 a "slow shutter speed" is a relative term, because of the subject movement (by most standards, that's quite fast). Short of getting your subjects to hold still (or panning with them) so you can live with a longer shutter, you can't change the laws of physics - exposure is a function of light level, aperture, shutter speed and ISO. Flash would help the light, but you say that's out; a D3s/D4 would help the ISO performance (possibly so would a D800, if you don't mind downscaling). Faster lenses (primes) would get you a couple of stops, at the cost of depth of field. Shooting wider or from further back (so the subjects are smaller) should help, but obviously you're stuck with a change of composition. If there is intermittent stage lighting, you might be able to set up a lighting trigger so your shutter is activated when the lights go up (I've done a home-made lightning trigger for my D700, which kind of works). Otherwise, I suspect there's no magic - sorry. I don't suppose turning up at rehearsals with a flash is acceptable?</p>

<p>I wouldn't call 1/200th a slow shutter speed, what problems are you having with your pictures?</p>

<p>Hi Brian,</p>

<p>I shoot often in similar conditions and I found fast primes to be a must if flash has to be avoided.</p>

<p>Usually I have a kit of three lenses 24/1.4 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 and I mostly use them at f2 but sometimes I have to go wide open. I shoot in Manual mode, setting the aperture (i.e. f2), shutter speed (this depends on situations but 1/200 is only acceptable for those moving fast... ) and leaving the camera in AutoISO, not limiting it. I prefer ISO6400 images properly exposed rather than ISO1600 underexposed. I shoot always handheld.</p>

<p>These stage works are tricky because of the light quality, sources, colors, etc... so it is critical important to not rely on the camera light meter but to expose for the face of your subject. This mean sometimes exposure corrections of -2EV or even more....<br /> Good luck!</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>I am trying to get good tack sharp results in stage productions of bands and dancers who are moving alot. These subjects are stage lit and I do not want to use any flash.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I would call 1/200 sec a slow shutter speed for capturing moving dancers. You need 1/1000 or faster to freeze that kind of action.</p>

<p>Unless you use flash to freeze the action, you are not going to get "tack sharp" images under such shooting conditions. When you raise the ISO on the D700 to 1600, 3200 and above, the images are not going to be all that sharp due to noise, and you need a fast shutter speed such as 1/500 but preferably 1/1000 to stop the motion, and you also need some depth of field so that f1.4 or f2 is not going to be the answer either.</p>

<p>You can raise the ISO and use 1/500 sec and get reasonable images, good for web display and small prints, perhaps even 8x10 prints, but that is not something I would called "tack sharp," whose definition is of course debateable.</p>

<p>If you are allowed to use flash, I would consider it.</p>

<p>Have you tried shooting bursts at max frame rate? That way you're more likely to capture moments of slower movement within the overall activity. It will at least give you more choices when editing - always good in marginal and unpredictable situations.</p>

<p>I shoot a lot of dance shows with my D700. Sometimes I use a 70-200mm f/2.8, but more often I use a pair of fast primes, for me the 28mm f/1.4 AF-D and 85mm f/1.4 AF-D lenses. (The 24mm f/1.4 AF-S or 35mm f/1.4 AF-S lenses would be my choice if I were buying/renting today). I don't find 50mm a useful focal length for most of what I do, but clearly a 50mm f/1.4 is the least expensive way to get an f/1.4 lens, and if you can choose your position, this could work great. My lenses are very similar Mihai's choices. I also prefer to shoot at f/2 (a full stop faster than an f/2.8 zoom) but sometimes open up to f/1.4. Remember that if you're shooting at 1/200 sec at f/2.8 and ISO 6400 before, an f/1.4 prime would let you shoot at 1/800 sec. Finally, I shoot handheld as well. My arms are fatigued holding a 70-200/2.8 for two hours, but not by holding an 85/1.4 prime. Shooting without a monopod gives me more flexibility.</p>

<p>I sometimes also set the camera to manual mode, dial in a shutter speed and aperture, and let the camera range Auto-ISO to ISO 6400. More, often, however, I set the camera to aperture priority, and set my minimum shutter speed in the Auto ISO dialog. I think this has a couple advantages: (1) Sometimes stage lights can get very bright, unexpectedly. This ensures that the camera is free to increase the shutter speed above your minimum when that happens. (2) When the light gets really low, I generally prefer to get correctly exposed shots and take the risk of motion blur, rather than getting under-exposed shots at my preferred shutter speed that I have to push in post-processing. Not always though --- sometimes at the beginning and end of a dance when the lights are generally lowest, the best shots are silhouettes that the meter would think are underexposed. (3) In A mode only one dial is needed to control the aperture, so the other dial can be used for easy exposure compensation (a custom setting to adjust the EV shift without pressing the EV shift button). In M mode, one dial is needed to control the aperture and the other for shutter speed, so no easy exposure compensation is possible.</p>

<p>However, a disadvantage is that even setting the Auto-ISO dialog to come up with the Fn button (by placing it in your MyMenu) still means there are several button presses and dial twiddles, while looking at the rear LCD, to change the shutter speed, instead of just twiddling the command dial. So, I generally shoot a dance in A mode at f/2, with a shutter speed minimum of 1/250 sec in my Auto-ISO dialog, and an ISO maximum of ISO 3200 or ISO 6400, but I leave manual mode set to f/1.4, 1/500 sec, and switch into that quickly if I realize the dance is particularly fast, or if I want to take a silhouette. Practice switching back and forth between M and A mode without taking your eye off the viewfinder. I actually prefer the dedicated mode dial of the consumer DSLRs for this reason, but it can be done with practice with the D700.</p>

<p>Some of the dances I shoot are pretty frenetic, but I have never experienced needing 1/1000 sec. I generally shoot at 1/250 sec, but for really fast dance I go up to 1/500 sec. 1/500 sec may even be too fast, since sometimes the best photos have a little motion blur to indicate movement. For example, I recently shot a martial arts dance at 1/500 sec. The bodies of the dancers were frozen, even in mid-jump, but the very tip of their extremities, or their swords, showed just a hint of motion blur. I agree that 1/1000 sec would have frozen this completely, but just a little slower, like 1/320 sec, would have kept their bodies frozen but showed a little more blur in the tip of their extremities, showing the viewer how they were moving. Obviously, this is to taste.</p>

<p>To summarize, an f/1.4 prime will give you an extra two stops over an f/2.8 zoom. A D3s or D4 will give you about an extra stop, maybe a little more, over a D700. Renting equipment for a show is great, especially if you can bill it to the show's producers! =) With a D700 I prefer ISO 3200, but ISO 6400 is fine as well. Note that shadow noise at ISO 6400 with the D700 can be quite bad, but if the scene is actually fairly bright, but you are using high ISO to enable high shutter speeds, the noise is much more tolerable. I recently shot a dance with a D700 and a D4. With the D4 I set the maximum ISO to 10,000, and the files looked like the D700 at ISO 3200. I could have gone to ISO 12,800, and probably even a little further, since the D4 is both cleaner and higher resolution. Compared to shooting dance with film, or with a D100, however, the D700 is a revelation.</p><div></div>

<p>One more photo: this is an example when I wished I had used a fast prime instead of the 70-200/2.8, and why I rarely use the zoom for dance shows. This photo was taken with the 70-200mm VR I, which I also don't like for other reasons. The 70-200/2.8 VR II shows much less vignetting and is sharper across the frame, but it is still f/2.8 and the focus breathing in the VR II might be important if you are quite close to your subjects. Zooms are flexible, but I usually find fast primes more suitable for dance photography.</p><div></div>

<p>Samuel - your issue with the difficulty of tweaking the shutter speed in aperture priority is one of my whinges about the D700 - I usually stick to manual and auto-ISO in low light (so I can tweak the shutter speed and aperture quickly, but sometimes bump into minimum ISO when it's too bright) and aperture priority in daylight (when I can get by with a less-than-optimal shutter speed). I'm very glad that the D800 has a more intelligent auto-ISO so that you can, at least, suit the shutter speed to zoom lens length (rather than aiming at worst case, or relying on primes). It would have been nice to have a Canon-style "safety shift" when you run into minimum (or maximum) ISO in manual mode, though. And, of course, it would have been nice if you could reach the ISO button with the hand which isn't supporting a chuffing enormous 200 f/2 without risking dropping the camera (for example by allowing ISO to be mapped to <i>one of the obviously programmable buttons</i> which you can reach with the right hand), but I'm not bitter that I (and DPReview) have been ignored on that request for several years now... (I'm convinced that Nikon moved more AF functionality to where only the left hand can reach it on the D800 just to spite me.) :-)</p>

<p>I have similar challenges shooting figure skating -- fast moving subjects under generally low light. You have excellent equipment -- I use the same 70-200 but on a D200, which is much slower to AF than your D700 and not nearly as good with high ISOs. Faster primes aren't much help in my opinion because of the combination of lack of depth of field with moving subjects. I generally shoot aperture priority at 2.8 and get shutting speeds about 1/200. You've got to pan with the subject, use the right AF mode (i'm still experimenting on which works best) and wait for the peak of motion where the subject stops for a fraction of a second. Also need to shoot when the subject is in whatever light there is, not off at the fringe. And most of all shoot lots of frames and be prepared to delete the bad ones. I just finished editing down a skating show where I shot about 2400 frames and ended up with about 400 keepers.</p>

<p>I see again and again the same confusion regarding depth of field. Depth of field depends on many factors and there is no any rule saying that a lens at f2 must have a too narrow DOF in order to be used... </p>

<p>For instance, 24/1.4 at f2 has an incredible DOF. From dofmaster calculator, for this lens mounted on D700 we have:</p>

<table summary="results of depth of field calculation" width="100%">

<tbody>

<tr>

<td align="left" valign="top" width="55%">Subject distance </td>

<td id="resultsDistance" align="left" valign="top">6 m</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td colspan="2" align="top"> </td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td colspan="2" align="left">Depth of field </td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td >Near limit </td>

<td id="dofNear" align="left">3.7 m</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td >Far limit </td>

<td id="dofFar" align="left">15.9 m</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td >Total </td>

<td id="dofTotal" align="left">12.2 m</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td colspan="2"> </td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td >In front of subject </td>

<td id="dofFront" align="left">2.3 m (19%)</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td >Behind subject </td>

<td id="dofRear" align="left">9.9 m (81%)</td>

</tr>

</tbody>

</table>

<p>So one can shoot a group of dancers with very good results, using a 24mm lens at f2.</p>

<p>With a longer lens, i.e. 85/1.4 you are focusing on a single person, not on a group... so f2 works very well. There is a very narrow DOF only when you are very close to the subject but even in these circumstances you can use the DOF in a creative way. </p>

<p>Most concerts I shoot are prohibiting the use of flash or are restricting it to a brief part of the show so developing a strategy to get good images without a flash is essential.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>It seems I am limited in my quest by slow shutter speeds (usually 1/200 at best) despite fast lens', high ISO, and wide open apertures. Is this just the nature of the beast or is there a better solution??</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes. You need a good camera, fast shutter speeds and high ISOs. I am usually at ISO 3200 or 6400 1/500th at f2 with a Canon L 135mm, or sometimes 1/500th at f2.8 with a 200mm (FF). Depending on the light, you can sometimes drop to 1/250th, but I never go below this. Sometimes I am at 280mm at f4 (200 + 1.4 TC). I just have to underexpose the shot and adjust in post. There is no way around this. A VR/IS lens can help when the dancers are still or striking a pose. As you are wide open, you will never get everyone sharp - it doesn't matter as long as you get the center of interest in focus. Your kit should be fine, although one tele lens faster than f2.8 would not go amiss. </p>

<p>Robin - this is a heck of a forum to suggest that a D700 isn't a good camera (for low light shooting), given that Brian's already using high ISO and f/2.8. :-) Admittedly a D3s or D4 (or maybe D800), or a 5D3 or 1Dx, would be better, but only incrementally. I concede that a 135 f/2 would help (by one stop), and I'm not sure I'd recommend the 135 f/2 DC for the same use, although I've used it in very low light. Sadly, Nikon don't have anything longer than 85mm and faster than f/2.<br />

<br />

Mihai - depth of field is (approximately) unchanged by focal length, if the subject size is kept the same within the frame (i.e. you move closer for a wider lens, farther away for a longer lens). For a full-height shot of a standing person, therefore, we can say that a certain aperture won't cover the depth of the person no matter the focal length of the lens; I would hope most attempts to rule out wide apertures start with the kind of shot being discussed, otherwise you're quite right that no aperture is "too wide" (and you can always embrace the shallow depth of field look, as Robin says).<br />

<br />

You can say that a 24mm lens has incredible depth of field, but the depth of field is very similar to that of a 200mm lens used at the same aperture <i>but from much further away</i>. Hence my suggestion of "shooting wider or from further back" - shrinking the subjects in the frame will both reduce motion blur and increase the depth of field, whether you use a 24mm f/1.4 (from up close) or an 84mm f/1.4 (from a distance).<br />

<br />

The problem, in both cases, is that the subject is very small in the frame. Accept that, and you can shoot in low light no matter the lens (although a wide angle will probably help minimise camera shake). Want a poster-sized sharp image filled with a band member in low light, and depth of field gets to be a problem.</p>

<p>Large aperture primes, flash or strobes when possible (off camera preferably) and expert post processing skills to get the highest image quality when shooting in low light.</p>

<p>When my kids were doing High school and community theater I used to get there early and get close enough to used my 50mm f1.8 lens. I tried a monopod but I found that it just got in my way. So normally I would shoot at 1/30th of a second. F2 or 2.8. I would use ISO 800 and sometimes I would shoot B/W film with ASA 800 film. I would choose moments where my kids were not moving. At the end of a dance step or something like that. Since it was my kids I would go to all the shows so after about 3 shows I knew very well when the best shot would be. I generally would sit on the right aisle side first then the lest aisle side the next show. I liked the 50mm because it was easy to hand hold at 1/30th of a second. Back to the monopod is it will not really help with moving subjects. It might let you shoot at a slightly lower shutter speed but it will not cause the action of the stage to slow down. Also the other thing I did was take photos when the audience was clapping, laughing or the actors were making a lot of noise. I did that so that my camea would not disrupt the enjoyment of those around me. Since I knew the other parents I would usually grab a few shots of their kids so they would have some photos also. I have 6 kids but only 3 of them were into the theatre. Over the High School years I went to many performances. </p>

<p> If I were going to a performance without my kids on stage I would not even take a camera as I have no use for a picture of strangers acting. I would just enjoy the show. I have been to a few professional performances and will probably attend a few more. </p>

<p>flash is the idea way to accomplish what you want</p>

Absolutely fabulous responses, thank you.

I have a 50mm 1.8 but never thought to use it.

I've never experimented with auto ISO.

I appreciate the photographer skill suggestions like panning, motion blur and timing that I try to do but clearly i need more

practice.

I have pretty good flash skills but I'm determined to figure this out without one.

I thought the D700 was about as much as I needed or wanted to spend on a camera, I used to have a D100.

Let me review your excellent comments and I'll post some examples from last weekends dance recital.

<p>Brian: good luck, and I'm glad you think we've helped! I look forward to your results. (And, retrospectively, I'll echo Craig's advice - shoot a lot of images and be prepared to ditch a lot. This might mean a fast CF card, and when I'm going for action I tend to resort to JPEG for write speed and space reasons.)</p>

<p>To clarify: the D700 is perfectly capable of doing what you want. My point is that you do need a camera that gives good performance at ISO3200. I am frequently asked about this as I take a lot of dance/theater. I have usually resort to saying that you need the $$$ to get the fast longer lenses and a pro or semi-pro camera to use successfully at 3200 and up. For much of photography the equipment is fairly unimportant, but for dance you need to spend to get the results. I usually suggest too that a Canon Rebel or Nikon D3100/5100 may work quite well with an 85mm f1.8 100/2 or similar. This is a "budget" solution that can work pretty well. Brian has a great kit so he should be OK, but it is true - one is often/usually working at the very limit: there's no way around it.</p>

<p>Brian, when I had to do some stage work, a professional photographer gave me some very good advice. He recommended metering on the face of the person on stage. Frequently the background is not nearly as important as the subject on the stage, and the background might then be underexposed if you meter on the face(s). But it will also allow you to use a faster shutter speed if you aren't averaging the exposure for the entire scene.</p>

<p>I haven't been following this thread but quite frequently I shoot in low light stage light conditions with moving or somewhat moving subjects. I think the best performing lens in this situation is the 85/1.4 AF-S. It has impeccable autofocus performance and very good sharpness already at f/1.4-f/2. Not all shots of moving subjects will be in perfect focus of course, but it does let you go way up on the shutter speed (1/500s minimum, 1/1000s recommended) and a good proportion of shots shoudl come out in focus, with very high sharpness. It's expensive but I think it's the best performing lens I have. The newer 70-200 II also has excellent sharpness and autofocus but I think it's too contrasty for stage lit conditions, making very, very deep shadows that can be difficult to recover.</p>

<p>I also use the 135/2 DC and 200/2 VR for such conditions but I'm not sure if I can recommend them as much as the 85mm. The latter is just so good.</p>

<p>If you need shorter focal length lenses then the 35/1.4 AF-S is also an outstanding performer for its focal length. I haven't used the 50/1.4 AF-S in these conditons much, but it's likely that itwill also yield good results and for a much lower price than the 35 and 85. The new 85/1.8 AF-S also gets high commendations but the 85/1.4 seems to get a bit higher MTF in tests, and due to the nano coating it should deal with stage light better (if you want to shoot into the lights and retain contrast, the 85/1.4 AF-S does this excellently). I thikn it would be best to test both f/1.8 and f/1.4 of the 85mm just to be sure you're not spending too much money if you can get away with less. But my experience is limited to the 1.4 and that gets the big thumbs up from me, if you haven't noticed. ;-)</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I am limited in my quest by slow shutter speeds (usually 1/200 at best) despite fast lens', high ISO, and wide open apertures. Is this just the nature of the beast or is there a better solution??</p>

</blockquote>

<p>pretty much nature of the beast, since your equipment is pretty good. it's unclear whether you are always shooting in the same venue or not, but in any event i would assume you are dealing with a lot of variation in lighting.</p>

<p>i shoot in much the same conditions with D3s, 24-70, 70-200, 50/1.4 and 85/1.4, although probably more music than dance. 1.4 is very difficult for moving subjects so i use f/2 if i can. prime vs. zoom is in some ways a matter of personal preference but also depends on conditions. if you start with one focal length you're pretty much committed to that, at least until the end of that particular dance. switching lenses in the middle of a quickly-moving performance is a drag, and dance can change angles and perspective in the blink of an eye, so there are definite advantages to zooms, except for the fact that nikon doesn't make them faster than 2.8. the 70-200 is about as good as it gets as far as speedy focus, responsiveness and IQ, so i would have no hesitation about using that. not sure about the monopod though, that could get in the way if you want to shoot from a low angle, though i guess you could use a QR. for the times when 2.8 isnt fast enough, i recommend having at least one 1.4 lens but a full set (24/35/50/85) might be cost-prohibitive to most shooters.</p>

<p>with a d700, your ISO should be clean to 3200, so you might be able to get a faster shutter if you're not that high up normally. i usually dial in manual ISO and shoot in manual but YMMV. if there's a lot of variable stage lighting at different EVs, Auto-ISO can theoretically stop you from overexposing, but that depends on you using it correctly.</p>

<p>as far as technique with dance my top three tips are: 1) start your burst prior to the movement initiating and pan through with AF-C; 2) make sure not to frame too tight. you can always crop later but you cant put a hand or foot outside the frame back in; and 3) use AF-On to focus when shooting action (decouple shutter from focus). good luck!</p>

<p>Great tips from some obviously well experienced photographers. I will use auto ISO and my 50mm lens next shoot. I'm going to check out the 85 primes. I'll try and post some examples this weekend.</p>