Troubles with selling prints as "unofficial" event photog?

<p>As the unofficial photographer for a lot of the teams at my son's school (both those he's a part of and those we attend just to support the team), I capture a lot of images. I also shoot at events where my wife runs (typically 5-10k events).</p>

<p>I'd like to look into selling prints to the opposing teams/contestants. Is there any problem with marketing as an unofficial photog? Seems to me that if the event is publically accessable there shouldn't be, but doesn't mean logical reasoning holds true. Obviously this would be shooting on spec, and while I don't typically work that way, if I'm already there taking photos I figured I might take a chance on additional revenue streams.</p>

<p>I've been the "official" photog at several events as a hired shooter, but one wouldn't expect to have issues there.</p>

<p>I ran through the old forum posts, but didn't see anything addressing this topic.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance!</p>

<p>If there is an "official" photographer who has an agreement with the school and/or teams to take and sell photographs then at the very least it would be tacky to compete with him.<br>

If there isn't I'd ask whomever runs the events if he has a problem with it. I do it all the time at club soccer games. Normally I will give the team manager my card and ask her to contact me via e-mail and I will send mail manager a CD with low resolution files with a watermark -- along with a price list. I try to get the manager to take the orders and send them to me in one large order --- saves me a lot of time and trips to the Post Office. I use a couple of methods to encourage the idea of 1 rather than many orders by offering a 10% rebate to the team if the order is more than $100 and if it's more than $250 I'll add a 11x14 print of the manager's choice in addition to the 10% rebate. The offer has a 4 week dead-line so anything ordered after that is regular price and they pay for postage.<br>

The best $$$'s come from the younger teams -- 8 and 9 years and younger if they have them.</p>

<p>Thanks Bill,</p>

<p>The school events I've been shooting are primarily a small private school, playing against another, but I've also attended other public HS events (friends kids playing, or just open that day) for practice, portfoliio building and fun (I know dirty word). So I haven't seen many other photogs, much less official ones. I have been to a few races with official photogs, but not all.</p>

<p>I wouldn't try to compete against another if an official photog is present, though would still take photos for the above reasons.</p>

<p>I was thinking about an online purchase/hosting arrangement. I figured I would provide a few low-res photos for the coach with a link to the web site. A rebate to the team and/or a large image/poster would be a good way to incentivise the coach to spread the word.</p>

<p><strong>"Is there any problem with marketing as an unofficial photog?"</strong></p>

<p>I have no idea about your specific case, because I don't know the details, location and other factors - and if I did, I'd likely not know the law where you are, anyway.<br />But I can give an example relative to my own situation and location:</p>

<p>For events where the Event Organizer has allocated the right to an Official Photographer, to photograph and SELL those photos, the Official Photographer mostly always PAYS for those rights. That Official Photographer might NOT necessarily be a Stills Photographer. <br />If the event is ticketed and/or within private property, the Terms of Entry / Attendance usually state that Patrons can take images for private use and not for sale or profit. Some venues PROHIBIT ALL Photography.<br />All School Property (Public and Private), have terms of entry and if scrutinized closely enough, those terms usually include the recording of images and sound – many all allow general recording for personal use ONLY.<br />For Public Property, irrespective of the activity which is happening on that Property - there are some public areas of land where photography for PROFIT, requires a Licence: and this is usually purchased from the local authority, such as Local / Municipal Council.</p>

<p>So I think you had best research at least three areas:<br />the Schools<br />the Events’ Organisers<br />the Public Areas Administrations.</p>

<p>Notwithstanding the above: when I am the Official Photographer at a venue, if another person were to shoot a collection of shots at the venue and put them up for SALE OR for SOME OTHER FINANCIAL BENEFIT my best (most effective) recourse is to (begin to) bring legal action against the Venue Organizer with whom I have the contract for sole rights to shoot and sell for profit.<br>

<br />Then it is in the Venue’s best interest to shut that other person’s sales down, as quickly as possible. This then relieves me of the hassle of all the follow up - as the Venues and Schools which I shot for have more clout; more time; more money; more staff to follow up AND they have the ability to ban said person(s) from re-entry.<br />The rules, law and options available to all players might, be different where you work.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>If there are no restrictions on photography at a public accessible event, you are not a party to any contract with the venue and "official" photographer and are not interfering with the photographer's shooting, it is much more forgiving than something such as doing something like this at a wedding or the like. One can expect that some sore feelings may be directed at you nevertheless. The reasonableness of that depending on the circumstances.</p>

<p>I think even if you don't buy a ticket, the event organizer/property owner can limit your photography and/or access to the property. As a parent, I would assume that you have the permission to attend, and to take pictures for personal use at, certain school events. Certain schools (colleges) are highly protective of anything that relates to sports and profits, and I think you would be walking on very thin ice if you were to trying to compete for these profits, even as a parent. They have legal staff specifically for these things.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"One can expect that some sore feelings may be directed at you nevertheless. The <strong>reasonableness</strong> of that depending on the circumstances."</em><br /><em> </em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think that this is a very important general point, for the OP to consider: in relation to how much effort he (the OP) might put in; how much angst he might take; who he might put off-side; for how much monetary gain he might eventually reap.</p>

<p><br />Even "<strong><em>reasonable</em></strong> circumstances" are oft misunderstood.<br /><br />I recall me NOT shooting officially at a particular Sporting Meet, but toting some white lenses in the Public Area to grab some personal shots of my relative - all quite Kosher, nothing more than what others were doing, 'cept I had some heavy gear on me. My gear scored me quite a mouthful from the Official Photographer - a full splatter, without so much as a "by your leave". In this regard, the OP needs to know the rules of the game and where he actually stands, should he be challenged.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p>D:</p>

<p>Without knowing the specifics, the quickest way to get an answer to your question is to try it out on a limited basis. I wouldn't invest any more time/money into this than I'm willing to lose if I'm told I must shut down immediately.</p>

<p>I'm the unofficial photographer at my children's sporting activities, too. After the activity, I post a link and send out an email. I don't watermark these photos in any way. They're web sized (950 pixels on the largest size). The galleries are heavily represented with my own children. I'm taking photos of my children because I enjoy doing such. I take photos of the other children as a courtesy. I usually make complimentary prints for the coaches. I've been asked to be the official photographer from time to time and do the individual and team shots. Those go into one of my regular galleries where they can be purchased (along with collecting sales tax, shipping, etc.) I've priced these to be competitive with the local team photographers, which is substantially under what I normally charge for the same sized prints.</p>

<p>I've never made much money from this, even when I've been asked to provide a service and charge for prints. I've never expected to. I don't want to commercialize my children's school activities. I don't expect to make money by showing up. I try to act like a parent instead of a photographer when I'm at these events. :)</p>

<p>Eric</p>

<p>D - </p>

<p>As John pointed out - any agreement is between the league and the photographer - not you and the photographer. </p>

<p>As William W pointed out - if an official photographer sees someone else selling photos of an event they had "exclusive" rights to - they typically go to the event host and let them deal with it. Event hosts tend to have more power and their words go farther than a peer to peer conversation. </p>

<p>Most youth sporting events that I'm familiar with have "official" or sanctioned photographers. Teams and leagues tend to view that as another fundraising source - so they get a little upset when someone cuts in their piece of the action. As was pointed out - photographers either pay for the right to be there via a flat rate or a percentage of sales from the event. Sometimes at the H.S. level - the photographer who is contracted with the host school's yearbook also has an exclusive right or right of first refusal to shoot the action shots for events too. I know that applies for at least 3 or 4 local High Schools. They don't attend every game, but when they do - they are hawks if a local person happens to publish a photo of the event for sale. </p>

<p>In some cases (rare, but it does happen) the event will pay a photographer to be there - the photographer then hands over the images from the event and the organization handles all the sales and printing. </p>

<p>Even if you don't see the photographer - it doesn't mean that he or she isn't there - they do occasionally take breaks - and sometimes they are hard to spot to begin with. </p>

<p>Best advice - Contact the organizer. Find out if they are interested or have a contract. If they do have a contract - it is not good etiquette to compete on the side with the contracted photographer - probably is legal, but not good sport. Compete with them in the negotiation and ability to deliver. That will get you the business. Another thing to consider (I actually had this happen once) - is that the league may not want action photos taken of their event. My son was playing for a city sponsored flag football league - I asked the coach if it was okay if I took some photos for the kids - action shots. He indicated that he was fine with it and all of our team's parents were too. I shot one game - then the next game - a city official came up to me and asked me if I was shooting for myself or someone else - I, of course, told him I was shooting for our team. He said - "Nope - not allowed. You can shoot your own kid only - no one else's. " Apparently someone from the team that we had played the previous evening had called the city park and rec and complained. I explained that I had a kid on the team and the parents were okay with it - but he insisted that it was not okay while he was around. I did talk to the league official the next day - and he agreed with the other official. They did not allow, nor would they allow photography of their games in a general sense. Parents could take snapshots of their kids - but showing up with a pro body and a 70-200 f2.8 was crossing the line. The city's view is that there are too many freaks out there and they didn't want to be exposed to a lawsuit from one of the parents. </p>

<p>Also - keep in mind that you will be putting in a lot of long hours for little return - Action shots, while rewarding from an achievement and personal view, are not where the money is in youth sports. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Make sure you have written permission from parents prior to posting images for sale on a website.</p>

<p>All - Thanks for your posts. They provide a range of thoughts to consider.</p>