Russian Rangefinders

<p>Has Anyone here used one of the Russian Rangefinders like a Zorki or a Fed? Any thoughts or bits of advice?</p>

<p>I've had experienced Zorki 4 , FED 2,3,4,5 and Kiev 3,4. There are many photographers that have pretty memories with Zorki 4 but mine was different. The shutter speed esp. in slower ones seemed to be inaccurate, rangefinder adjustment was always tricky and the travelling curtain sometimes stuck.<br>

With FEDs and Kievs , my luck got better, the optics and the camera itself usually worked very well. In my opinion, the Russian RF series is a matter of luck. There was a lack of standart postproduction quality control procedures, so not every of them came out smooth.<br>

But, I still use Kiev 4 with Jup 8,9,11,12 lenses, and had good results. If you get a good copy of RRFs, with a good lens, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.</p>

<p>Just a word of caution, most of the RFs are Ukranian, not russian...</p>

<p>I've got a Kiev and Fed and a Zorki 4. My general advice. Russian cameras for fun, not as your primary picture takers.</p>

<p>Russian rangefinders 10 tp 12 years ago were very inexpensive. One could buy a Zorki 4; Jupiter-8 5cm F2 lens; case for 9 to 12 bucks; say 16 to 19 with freight to the USA. I bought over a dozen of them like this as singles; paid with a 20 dollar bil ie cash thru the mail. In bulk I got so many that to feed the habit I was reselling them again on Ebay. I really never had an global shutter issues with Zorkis; like mentioend above; but did have some dud Fed 2's that were worn out. Russian stuff is a bit like Harbor Freight; some stuff works well; some is OK; some is just junk. When I was a seller of this stuff *about all* the good stuff was from a Ukraine sellers; all teh bad carp was from fellow usa ebayers; they sell off the duds in the USA for 3 times more than a overseas purchase. Today prices are way higher.</p>

<p> Russian Leica Thread Mount (LTM) bodies do NOT have a roller cam; the hold a subset of LTM lenses. The main issue is they require a ring type LTM lens cam; common with about all brands of LTM lenses. Thus my 10.cm F2.5 Nikkor will not work on a Russian body; but it will work on a Leica M3 or Bessa R which have a roller cam. Non 50mm lenses tend not to fit on Russian bodies; unless on uses a Russian LTM lens whcih has a ring cam. There are exceptions; like mu 80mm F2.8 Culiminar LTM has a ring cam.</p>

<p>Once on the Leica board there was a very deep anti russian LTM stuff hatred here; ie "you are not welcome here". A decade ago old grumpy farts would go nuts when non-Leica items were discussed; so bad that the bulk of knowledge about Russian LTM is on another camera board; the hatred drove folks away. In away it is sad; since there is more NON Leica LTM items in existance than Leica stuff. With time the folks with deep biases died off; left or mellowed out. One has a giant world of other brand LTM lenses; Nikkor; Canon; Minolta,Zeiss. About every lens maker at one time made LTM lenses.</p>

<p>Russian LTM stuff varies all over the place in quality. The aluminum cam ring on a lens tends to wear too. You will find that some folks hate tyhem; others tolerate them; others love them. To me it is amazing that I could buy a Zorki3C 11 years ago for about 25 bucks and shoot 300 rolls thru it with no issues; while others seem to have massive ones. The Jupiter-9 8.5cm F2 LTM has a checked reputation; later ones I have dlet with cannot be fixed thay have a missmatched helix to lens block and have a progressive focus error.</p>

<p>Old Russian LTM bodies for many decades have been used to make fake Leicas; often very funny and weird; ie engravings for Generals; weird wild colors; fake WW2 German cameras.</p>

<p>Here I call them "Russian cameras" because I am older; I do not have to use what is trendy to look cute. I have called them Russian Cameras for 50 damn years; and called film ie "film" and not analog.</p>

<p>A single Russian camera buy from an unknown seller may work well and focus well; or be somebody elses dud they are hawking off. The common Zorki 4 is what Russians used when the USA went to Kodapack/Instamatic; thus there are millions of them.</p>

<p> One can adjust a Zorki/Fed' RF mechanism for infinity; and for close range ie gain too. Most goofballs just align the infinity adjust which is easy. The close adjust requires rotating the pie/finger follower; and is less understood. Once one does this one has to readjsut the infinity; and go back and forth. Alot of Goobers sellers just adjust the easy infinity adjust and then sell the camera; you get it; see a water tower aligns up and thus think all is ok. Most of the time it works; but one does get a close focus error if the pie cam was messed with. These folks then declare Russian LTM stuff is crap; when they have a camera that was aligned wrong.</p>

<p>One has a combo/gamble of alot of 30 to 60 year old Russian LTM stuff that is great to poor; plus folks who fiddle with them; folks who resell their duds; folks who rebuild leneses in error; a totally weird brew.</p>

 

<p>I haven't noticed much "hatred" of Feds and Zorkis (and Kievs). They are a crapshoot though. You may get a good one but odds are it will come to you with problems. If you are handy you can fix them up. If you have a good technician who is willing to work on them, they can be rewarding. Ditto with the lenses. Keep in mind though that even in good repair, they tend to be a lot more "rough and ready" than Leicas. Using a Fed does not feel like using a Leica II or III. Also it might be hard to find parts here in the US for some russian cameras.</p>

<p>I had fun with the ones I bought (and sold) and if I were in Russia, I could be pretty content using these cameras with my local technician giving it an occasional service. But if you can afford a Leica M or even a leica IIIc or IIIf, you'd probably be better off with the leica.</p>

<p>I love my FSU cameras, my Kiev IIa is my favorite film camera, with my Fed-2 a close second. Earlier cameras have a better reputation. Many of the FSU lenses are amazing pieces of glass for a low price. The thing is that you can't just buy the cheapest ones on ebay if you want to be assured of a reliable camera. Look for cameras that have been CLA'd, and read seller feedback ratings to see the seller's history. I've bought a zorki and a few lenses from <a href="http://fedka.com/catalog/">Fedka</a> here in the US. His prices are high compared to ebay sellers, but when you consider the price of shipping from Europe, the difference isn't really all that much more and you know you'll get a reliable camera. The zorki I bough from Fedka arrived with the rangefinder very badly out of alignment which may have happened during shipment, I was able to quickly get a replacement from him, with no problems. </p>

<p>There are probably hundreds of discussions, together with lots of pictures, etc. on the Classic Manual Cameras forum of old FSU/"Russian"/Ukrainian, etc cameras of all kinds--folders, rangefinders, and even the occasional SLR. (examples from the last couple of weeks alone, <a href="../classic-cameras-forum/00W5Cp">link</a> and <a href="../classic-cameras-forum/00W3qw">link</a>).</p>

<p>Many of us have personally found a lot of the folklore and "received knowledge" on the variability and unreliability of these cameras to be way overstated. Their optics are more often than not astonishingly good (although a lot of old Zorkis do seem to have an excess of Leica "glow"). The Kievs are some of the nicest shooters around, especially if you are not a "bottom-loader". The FEDs can be excellent too.</p>

<p>As Kelly Flanigan noted the Russian LTM cameras don't have a round RF cam follower. What I have always wondered is, could a rolling cam follower be fitted? If it could, would that bring any advantage to the bodies? Just wondering.</p>

<p>Experience does vary wildly. How many of us outside the former Soviet Union have bought a lot of these and used them hard? I purchased 3 russian cameras, a Fed dressed up like a Leica, a Fed not dressed up like a Leica, and a Kiev 4AM. The Kiev worked fine till it developed a light leak (these are cameras designed to be serviced every once in a while, not unreasonable unless you compare them to Leicas). The regular Fed worked a little roughly but fine. And the Fed dressed up like a Leica didn't even have the clearance to load film. Ironically I had a friend of mine service that one and once I could actually load film, it worked very well. But I didn't exactly subject any of them to regular use.</p>

<p>I've bought 4 Leicas, a IIIf BD, 2 M2's and 1 M8. All the M's worked perfectly when I got them and still do (and I've worked the M2's pretty hard). The IIIf BD was seriously in need of service when I bought it at a show (for a pretty cheap price) and once serviced has worked flawlessly since (but not worked hard).</p>

<p>My impression is that the Kievs are definitely made better, but the Feds can be ok too, and the Fed/Leicas can be very entertaining.</p>

<p>See this is the kind of guy who should be buying these cameras!<br>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00W787?unified_p=1">http://www.photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00W787?unified_p=1</a><br>

Of course he's not buying the ones in better condition from more reputable sources, he likes to fix them up and he's obviously good at it, but it gives you an idea of what they can be like. I just wish I had the skill to fix these things up. It would give me great satisfaction. Too bad I have no such talent.</p>

<p>Thanks Everyone! I have been looking into getting a rangefinder for my photo class. Thanks everyone for the advice and info, it is greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>My own experience with the different flavors of Russian cameras over the past 15 years has been similar to that described by the others here. Very inexpensive but a gamble on actually being a useful shooter. Not mentioned earlier is that the Kievs can have their own peculiar set of shutter problems, one nasty one is when the roller blind shutter becomes cocked in the guides and hangs open.<br>

One interesting use for the LTM Russian clones is as a dedicated body for wide angle lenses such as Voigtlanders. As long as the shutter is firing, with the large DOF with these, one can usually zone focus the lens with the scale on the lens even if the camera RF isn't accurate (or working at all).</p>

<p>RE <em>One interesting use for the LTM Russian clones is as a dedicated body for wide angle lenses such as Voigtlanders.</em></p>

<p><br /> Here I got a 15mm VC LTM lens when they first came out; it is a great fun lens; super dinky.</p>

<p><br /> On a Russian camera they "tend" to work OK; but on some bodies the lead-in/start of the thread is not well controlled.</p>

<p>By bodies; I mean how the craps dice are thrown; ie not by model; by luck!</p>

<p>Thus the "ears" on the VC lens do not always line up properly. They are suppose to be at the Noon and 6 oclock positions; here is shot were the lead-in is off; thus one gets vignetting.</p>

<p>The 15mm LTM VC has some "ears" I guess as a lens shade; they align correctly on my Leica M3 with adapters; and my Bessa R; and most of my Russian "stuff"</p>

<p><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/ektar/15mm%20VC%20lens/tripods-411.jpg" alt="" /><br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/ektar/15mm%20VC%20lens/tripods-412.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>I've seen one russian LTM RF that has a roller cam - "Drug" (or "Droug"). it also has a nice 1:1 Albada viewfinder with two frames: 50 and 85mm. Unfortunately, it's a rare camera and most of them seem to have a broken (rapidwinder-style) film advance mechanism.</p>

<p>In view of Kelly Flanigan's comments, my luck with LTM Leicas has been better than I realized. I tended to use Zorki 3Ms.</p>

<p>These old cameras are no different from other old mechanical devices, they can't be expected to work flawlessly after 40+ years of use (or storage). Once cleaned and serviced, they are quite easy to use, and can give excellent results.<br>

My particular favorites are the old Zorki/FED 1 Leica clones. Compared side-by-side with a Leica, you can see why a Leica costs so much more. The Leica has a much smoother winding action, and is more refined in other ways. But when comparing the resulting pictures between the old Soviet cams and the Leica, you would have a hard time seeing any difference, and depending on the quality of the lens you have, the Soviet camera might even make a better image.<br>

My "pocket" camera is a FED-1948-Zorki with it's original lens. The camera functions perfectly (after installing new shutter curtains and cleaning it up), and it is a joy to use. I got it because I wanted to save wear-and-tear on my old Leica IIIa, but then I found out that this particular Zorki camera was actually rather rare, and was more valuable than the IIIa.<br>

Anyway, I love to use and tinker with the old FSU cameras. They are easy to find, relatively cheap, and unusual enough to be interesting to collect. And, they are capable of taking great pictures.</p>

<p>In '70-80es the plant "Arsenal" (Kiev, Ukraine) produced the "Kiev-5" that appeares to be not a bad camera. It has a crank winder, selen metering, long base RF combined with VF, bright lines and automatic parallax correction of VF frame. The shutter is same as in Kiev 4/Contax II (frost proof vertical moving curtains made of very thin leather and aluminium strips). It is looking like the hybrid of Leica M and Kiev/Contax. I prefer Leica M2/M3, so intend to place at the page "Classified" the Kiev-5 outfit including 4-5 lens (2.8/35mm, 2.0/85mm, 4.0/135 Jupiter's - clones of Sonnar's; Helios 2.0/50, collapsible uncoated Tessar 3.5/50) and backup body Kiev-4a.</p>

<p>Cody,<br>

Some advices, based on personal experience.<br>

1) preferably use Russian (Soviet) rangefinder with Russian (Soviet) glass, unless you use 20mm or wider lens.<br>

2) a good bet is to have either Zorki-1 (simply 'Zorki') or Zorki-C with collapsible Industar-22 - this is bottom loaded like Barnack Leicas, or Zorki-3, Zorki-3M, Zorki-4 with either early Jupiter-8, or Jupiter-3 (all quoted lenses are 50mm). You can use 'Barnack' Zorki's with J-8 and J-3, too, if you like. Some people do. Skip Zorki-5 and Zorki-6.<br>

3) buy either with CLA, or with option to return back, or if you have good technician handy, you can take a risk and buy off the auction site or elsewhere.<br>

4) Kiev cameras are not advised, unless your technician gives you green light with them (these are more complicated mechanically, more difficult to repair and service).<br>

You can read about Kievs here: http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zconrfKiev.htm<br>

note the paragraph <strong>Huge Quality Drop </strong><br>

5) FEDs are a matter of taste. I had FED-2 for a year, did not like the feel, sold it. Now have four Zorki bodies, much nicer. But some folks just love FED-2 and FED-3.<br>

Zorki and the M39 glass quoted above for Zorki were made in Krasnogorsk, near Moscow, while FED was made in Kharkov (Ukraine) and Kievs were made in Kiev, also Ukraine.<br>

I also think that, unless you only start to play with rangefinders, it's better to use it as a 'second' camera, and use something more reliable for critical work. For example, Russian glass can be poor if you shoot something with the light source in your frame, while Zeiss or Letz stand it just fine. I, for example, have Leica M3 and Contax G2, but Zorkis are fun to use and they do not cost too much, so you can just take the camera with you anywhere. Zorki-1 with Industar-22 fits in most pockets.</p>

<p>I found this thread looking for info on how to calibrate a Kiev 4 I just got. Paid $30 for the thing with a 50 1.8. I have a Contax 2a but the shutter flung and I just use film for fun and personal art work, I'm not fixing it.<br>

Test roll from the Kiev looks great! No light leaks and the sharpness is just as good as my Contax, and I shot with both the Russian Helios lens and my Zeiss Jena 50. I honestly think the Russian lens may have more clarity but I didn't shoot the same subject/situation for comparison. The only problem is the rangefinder is a little off, at infinity it bumps a little too far. But it's bright and clear, I think it's a hell of deal.<br>

Also gotta say it, my primary camera is a Nikon D3s, sorry but the old stuff is 50 year old technology and not practical for professional use, so it's all for fun. Just had to throw that out there after reading the comments about haters on the Leica forum. I think if you could grab any modern camera and transport back 60 years and hand it to HCB he'd be so thrilled he would wet himself.</p>