Very difficult choice...

<p>Hi,<br />I shoot with a medium format for few years and I'm decided to fall into the wonderfull world of "rangefinder" 35mm but i just can't made up my mind for one camera.<br />I've read some about these :<br />- Leica CL<br />- Canonet QL17 G3<br />- Bessa R2/3<br />- Yashica 35 GSN<br />I have 800 USD for body + lens.<br />What should i take ?<br />I know that the yashica and Canon are quite cheaper than the 2 other ones.<br />I absolutly want a camera with a build in meter.<br />I really need advices.<br />Thanks !</p>

<p>PS : Is there a big difference between the leica CL and the Minolta CLE and Leitz CL. (cause the minolta and leitz are cheaper than leica...)</p>

<p>Harold, there is practically no difference between a Leica CL and a Leitz Minolta CL. They are mechanical cameras with funky meters that too often require overhauls. The CLE is totally electronic. It is hard to get serviced when it's electronic go bonkers. I own 2, one functional.<br>

Do yourself a favor and get a new RF like the Zeiss Ikon which comes with a guarantee or a solid used RF like the Leica M6 which is very easily serviced when the need arises. </p>

<p>Short answer: Bessa R2.</p>

 

<p>Old Leicas almost always need sevice. Count on $300+. Sherry at Golden Touch Camera Repair has all the spare and upgraded parts for CL which she will put in at an overhaul. The meter cells are mostly bad and the plastic is ageing and brittle.</p>

<p>Anything you buy willl need service probably. Just like a used car, count on new tires, brakes, tune up, and oil change. Cameras are not much different.</p>

<p>With $800, I would go cheap and have it serviced. I agree with the first answer 100% </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I'd think about getting the Canonet or Yashica for the time being and save until you have at least $1500. Then go to KEH or ebay and shop for an M6 and a lens. Otherwise you might call Sherry about a CL. Don't know enough about the Bessa, but that could be another option.</p>

<p>Have to disagree a little with tobey. A used Leica doesn't necessarily need service. It's certainly possible to find used M6's that are good to go. I've had one model of Leica or another for 30 years and only once had to send one out for repair. A lot depends on who owned it and how it was used and treated.</p>

 

<p>$800 will not get you into a Leica & lens. Go lower with the Yashica GSN. It has a sharper lens than the Canonet (though the Canonet is sharp, too). The Yashica is more the size of the Leica M series. Canonets have been rising in value recently. Save for a Leica. Expect to pay in the ballpark of $2k. You can pick one up an M6 & lens in excellent condition that will not need a CLA.</p>

<p>With your budget you will have to compromise. The best compromise in your list is the Bessa R2. It's the best compromise for the following reasons: 1) it has the longest effective base length in the list, though still short of ideal, 2) it has the brightest, cleanest viewfinder, 3) it takes interchangeable lenses</p>

<p>When you move to range-finders, the brightness of the viewfinder defines the character of your visual experience and the effective base length determines the accuracy of your focus and constrains your selection of lenses. The Bessa R2 has an EBL of 25 while the CL has an EBL of under 19. By comparison, the "ideal" .72x Leica is up around 49mm. The R2 will accurately focus any lens up to a 50mm f1.0, but will have trouble with longer and faster lenses. It won't do the 75mm f1.4 wide open, it won't do a 90mm Summicron wide open, and using a 90mm f2.8 with the R2 is pushing it. There's a reason the CL's dedicated 90's were of f4 speed. Having said all that, the Bessa R2 is still the best in your list.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I'd get the Bessa R2M. You'll eventually want a different lens and get frustrated with the Canonet or the Yashica. They're good choices if you only have $75, but with $800.</p>

<p>The R2M is $590 new and they are hard to find used. As for the lens, the Canon 50/1.8 may be the best value lens. They often sell for <$150. You will need an adapter though. Many of the old Canon rangefinder lenses are good value for the money.</p>

<p>Your other option is to get a Bessa R. The Bessa R is a screwmount camera and while the build quality of the Bessa R2M is a bit better, the Bessa R will sell used for $200-$250, which leaves you more money for lenses.</p>

<p>I would get a user M3 and buy a Canon 50mm f1.8 LTM lens with adapter in execllent condition. If you are patient you can get the above for 800 or less.</p>

<p>I just checked KEH which has several M2 and M3 bodies in bargain condition for less than 600. You then have 200 to get the canon 50f1.8 which should be easy.</p>

<p>John, he wants a built in meter though, that's the hang up for that budget. Also the other cameras he mentions have closer to a 35mm lens.</p>

<p>Hexar AF (silver) is what I would do on $800 with change to spare, though it's not specifically a manual focus rangefinder.</p>

<p>Try the Hexar AF. You'll find these in the $450-500 (US); excellent cameras with 35mm/2.0 lens matching the quality of the 35mm Summicron.</p>

<p>I wonder if for that money, you couldn't get a Contax G2 with the 45mm. Great camera, great build, great lens. Good metering, autofocus, lots of neat features. It probably is what the M7 should or could have been. (that tremendous bang you just heard now? That was Zeus' lightning bolt striking me down). </p>

<p>I wonder if for that money, you couldn't get a Contax G2 with the 45mm. Great camera, great build, great lens. Good metering, autofocus, lots of neat features. It probably is what the M7 should or could have been. (that tremendous bang you just heard now? That was Zeus' lightning bolt striking me down). </p>

<p>Voigtlander package at www.photovillage.com looks tempting and would be in your budget. You may find a Leica/Minolta CL/CLE for under $800. Contax G1 or G2 also have fines Zeiss lenses that look like a bargain now! </p>

<p>I have two Zeiss Biogon 28mm f/2.8 for contax G1/G2, so I want to sell one. Tell me if interested.<br>

Amazing optics indeed.<br>

Rui</p>

<p>In fact there's a CL with lens at Tamarkin for under $700 -- lots of choices, scout around! For that price it's very hard indeed to say which is "best".</p>

<p>Leica CL/Minolta CLE: robust, compact, Leitz/Leica optics. But older, so pick carefully.</p>

<p>Voigtlander: best bang for buck for a new RF camera. Probably not as robust long term as Leica.</p>

<p>Contax: excellent quality but AF not a true rangefinder design. Does that matter to you?</p>

<p>Konica, Canonet, Yashica, Olympus 35SP or RD or RC (to thrown in another one!): fixed lenses, well made but optics and robustness probably behind the rest.</p>

 

<p>Thank to you all for your answers.<br>

I m not sure we ve reached a consensus (but was it the point ?)<br>

To conclude (or try to), I'm going to look for :<br>

- a leica M3 with a meter (for the shoe) + Canon 50mm f1,8<br>

- or a Bessa R or R2 + same lens<br>

(I didn't select the AF, I d rather play with a manuel camera)</p>

<p>PS : David, I didn't find the "Voigtlander package" on photovillage.com ???</p>

<p>Harold - try Googling "Camera Quest", or Stephen Gandy and you will find the US distributor for Voigtlander and you will also find a site with a tremendous wealth of rangefinder information of every stripe. You could conceivably research every option you have in that one place. Good luck with your search!</p>

<p>I've heard the Kodak Retina 111 is fair priced,also a very good performer as well!!</p>

<p><a href="http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=4013">http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=4013</a><br>

There's a 17/2.8 (34mm equivalent) pancake lens, with Leica-style optical accessory finder, or you can use a tiny zoom, and they're both Olympus so will be superb. <br>

This is more like a Leica than is Voigtlander in the sense that Oly makes incredibly good lenses, this is small while Voigtlander is huge, and this won't lack Kodachrome, which Voigtlander does lack as of today.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>

<p>Harold, the new Photovillage site is somewhat tricky to navigate. Look up http://www.photovillage.com/home.php?cat=1631 Voigtlander Bessa R2S kit with 50mm f/3.5 SHeliar. <<A great package that includes one of the best lenses ever constructed!>> There are a few other combinations.<br>

I've never used the Voigtlander, so I can't say how good it is. Reviews at www.photographyreview.com may help. Seems the consensus is that the lenses are great and good value, bodies are good value but not up to Leica quality.<br>

The only one of the cameras you list above I have used is the Leica CL, briefly, before settling on a Leica M3 and M6. I like the M feel, but the CL is nevertheless a very fine camera and precision built. It is also very compact, and the 40mm Summicron is by all accounts an excellent performer. (I used it with a 35.) See http://www.tamarkin.com/catalog/products/leica/leicamcam.html -- looks like a nice one, but it may get snapped up!<br>

The old mercury batteries can be tricky to find, but you can use new mercury-free zinc-air batteries instead. See: www.vintagebatteries.com/px625.htm<br>

Of course, a good Leica M plus a handheld meter like the Sekonic 308 will stand you in good stead, but will weigh in over your $800 target. I do recommend Leica lenses!<br>

Another camera I handled and liked was the Contax G2. I have seen stunning landscape pictures produced with this camera and Zeiss lenses. Both the G1 and G2 are available today at knockdown prices.<br>

I hope that gives you something more to mull over! Best of luck!</p>

<p> </p>

 

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<p>Just my opinion, Yashica 35 GSN may be nice to get into RFs, but I have not touched mine after getting an M4 - meter or not. I think you should go with aformentioned Bessa, but that is MHO.</p>

<p>(Really) Thank you all for your answers.<br>

My choice becomes trickyer everyday...<br>

I think i'm going to go for a Bessa R + 35 mm F2,5 Color Skopar (560USD used Exc++).<br>

<a href="http://www.priceminister.com/image?action=slideshow&aid=219005032&galimageid=849995772&prdfamilycode=700&productid=54314602">http://www.priceminister.com/image?action=slideshow&aid=219005032&galimageid=849995772&prdfamilycode=700&productid=54314602</a><br>

Leicas are really too expensive, and with my budget i'd have to shoot with a really poor lens...</p>

 

<p>If the budget is tight, start with an M-mount Bessa, use an LTM/M adapter, and buy the best lenses you can afford. The Voigtlander 35/2.5 is a good all-purpose lens.<br>

http://www.flickr.com/groups/cv35cs/</p>