Gymnastics Questions

<p>It seems to be one of the most frustrating subjects on all the forums. The low light, no flash and fast action all combine to be a very tricky event to get right. I have been shooting my daughter's gym meets since she was 5 (now 11) mostly from the sidelines where I would consider myself lucky if I was in position to get one of the events to my satisfaction.<br>

Last year, I helped the team by taking team photos for their banquet at their last practice where I was on the floor with the girls and posing them as well as getting them in their routines. The parents went nuts since all they have ever seen are the results from their own p&s cameras.<br>

So this year, they have granted me floor access to cover their events and the pressure is on. I must admit while positioning is easier on the floor, there is some real challanges to get shots that I am very happy with. So any help or advice would be greatly appreciated so I don't use up the last two Meets dialing it all in.<br>

I have a Nikon D90 that I used a Sigma 28mm 1.4 on since I could get so close. I also have a Nikkor 50mm and 85mm both 1.8 that could be used. I shot most of the Meet at ISO 2000 and was able to get 1/800 most of the time. I shot on shutter priority and let the camera go underexposed just a tad to get that shutter speed. That pushed the aperature wide open in most cases.<br>

I use Elements 7 and Noise Ninja in post production. Since many of the shots, especially on the floor need to be cropped, the noise is really bad, too much to clean up. I think there are a number of mistakes I made. One, I usually shoot in JPEG at the Fine/Med size to save card space, would it help the graininess at the high ISO to shoot in RAW or at least full resolution?<br>

I aslo set the camera to spot meter and spot focus but I found a suprising amount of shots that I missed the focus on, maybe due to the shallow DOF at that aperature.<br>

Positioning is a real trick too, any ideas on where to be on the different apparatus? I found being near the judges at least gets the athlete to face you when they present at the begining and end but other than that what has everyone found to be best.<br>

Thanks for your help!</p>

<p>Gymnastics is very challenging. Even after a 15 years of shooting gymnastics, I still run in to very difficult lighting situations. I've even walked away from a couple of events, when I was shooting film, because of the lack of adequate light. Back light and inconsistent lighting can cause lots of headaches. To help adjust in post, I always shoot RAW and run through Noise Ninja.</p>

<p>The lenses you have are very usable if you are able to get close. In order to avoid cropping you'll need a longer FL. The 70-200 2.8L is my workhorse, especially on floor, but on the other events as well. The autofocus speed is exceptional and very helpful on the floor exercise. Sometimes a 300 2.8 is useful.</p>

<p>I would still not set the larger aperture lenses below 2.0 as the DOF becomes quite thin as the FL increases. An aperture of 1/500 will eliminate motion blur, but I have had to drop below 200 at times. The trick in that circumstance is timing, catching the athlete at the peak of her skill as there will be a slight moment of zero movement.</p>

<p>Positioning can vary, depending on access. There are two or three positions I like to work on each event. Vault can be shot with a long lense from behind or to the side of the runway. A short FL can be used to the side of the horse or behind the landing mat (manual zone focus). Bars can be shot from the side or facing the high bar. Beam is easiest from the side as you can move parallel to the gymnast. However, I like an angle of 45 degrees off the end of the beam. The only problem is the gymnast will not always face you in the routine. Floor; if you know the athlete's starting position, pass directions, and finishing spot, you will have a great advantage. Compulsory routines are much easier to position and predict but as I see your daughter is eleven, she is probably on an optional team which will require some scouting during warm-ups. Knowing when an athlete is throwing a skill will allow you to anticipate the peak moment. Study her teammates routines and practice, especially with leaps, to catch the peak.</p>

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<p>Let me start of by saying that I don't shot Gymnastics but I do shot other indoor sports so take my advise as you want.<br>

I'm not sure on the D90's noise levels at high shutter speed but I would set the ISO to 1600, any higher you well end up with tons of noise. I would use the 85mm more than likely to get those nice tight shots. Open up the AP and then play with the shutter speed. I would try not to under expose to get more shutter as that will make the problem with noise much worse.<br>

As for NEF. If you have the time in post processing it might not be a bad idea, this would allow you to add a stop or two in post processing. It will depend on your style of shooting and the cards you are using. If you have slow cards and are trigger happy you will end up spending more time waiting for the camera to write and miss a lot of shots. So use caution. And then I would always use the highest JPEG setting you can. CF cards are cheap now days. You can pick up 2-4G cards for between $20 and $50. Don't skimp on file size as you will lose image quality.<br>

Just my 2cents. Good luck.</p>

<p>Shooting indoor sports is a real challenge; that's why I bought a D700. Even ISO 6400 is decent.</p>

<p>Thanks for the tips. Gary, I do have a 80-200 2.8 but I found on my old camera at ISO 1600 I was only getting a shutter speed of 1/60 or a little better. So I have not tried it again but will now. Good ideas on FL and positioning.<br>

Maybe I am being too aggressive at trying to stop the action with a fast shutter speed. Losing DOF with a wide open apature and getting the noise with the high ISO isn't worth the trade off. I have a 8 GB fast card now but you're right, media is cheap. I shot over 1000 shots at the last meet!<br>

So am I right to assume that the higher the resolution will improve my results even at high ISO?</p>

<p>Erik,<br>

The caption under the picture I posted should have read ISO 3200. I have found that the key to producing clean images at high ISOs is to make sure the exposure is correct. Under-exposed shots, pushed in post, will produce a great deal of noise. The same holds true for extreme cropping. Noise Ninja helps as does a longer FL but I'm eagarly awaiting the 1D IV which should give me two more stops.</p>

<p>The following picture was taken at 3200 ISO and a shutter speed of 1/100. You can see motion blur in the hands and feet but the exposure is correct and there is little noise for the ISO. Ideally, I like to keep the shutter at or above 1/200, but sometimes you get what you can.</p><div></div>

<p>Gary, I was wondering about the caption. You are so right, the exposure is critical. I was working with more of the shots last night and I noticed that about 1/2 of them did not need Noise Ninja at all, they were correctly exposed. Now I need another meet to try out my new tools. I think this next gym is the worst for lighting so that will add yet another wrinkle.<br>

Last question, then I will leave you alone, do you use spot focus and spot metering?</p>

<p>Erik,</p>

<p>I use the center focus point mostly, but with optional gymnasts, I find the highest focus point (vertical orientation) allows me to not miss the focus during leaps. This is especially true on floor exercise and beam. </p>

<p>I always shoot in manual mode with the aperture from 2.0 to 4.0 and the shutter as close to or above 1/200 as I can get. Shoot some test shots, check the histogram, and hopefully the settings will bring adequate results. I don't rely upon the camera's meter unless I'm using a gray card for the manual settings. Background can fool evaluative metering and in AV mode, it may give too slow of a shutter setting. TV will work to give you less motion blur but the subject may underexpose, even with the spot meter. Setting my cameras manually and adjusting on the fly has always worked best for me. After a while, you get a good feel for what settings will work when you walk into a gym and observe the lighting. Even in the best lit arenas, I'll rarely exceed 1/500sec shutter speed.</p>

<p>Exposure is important at the higher ISO levels because the dynamic range of any camera drops as the ISO setting increases. A camera might lose 2 or 3 EV by 1600, meaning a smaller range of light can be recorded. So the image must be exposed in that smaller range to look good, making a difficult situation worse.<br>

And that is why nearly everyone that tries this for an extended period of time will shoot manual mode after trying to figure out how much light there is available. They search for where that usable exposure range exists for their camera at various settings.<br>

For me it is still a lot of trial and error, but I'm starting to get a feel for the best ranges for my cameras and what the local gyms have in the way of lighting.<br>

I'm not sure, but I've been wondering whether getting an accurate white balance reading set in the camera or set early in post processing will help with the quality of the image (beyond just the color balance). Does anyone else know?</p>

 

<p>Jeffrey, it is interesting but on this last batch of shots, I have found fixing the levels before running Noise Ninja has better results. Leads me to believe what everyone is saying and that is to get the light right (both exposure and temperature) when shooting under such unfriendly conditions will only help the final product.<br>

It is real evident that in my underexposed shots, any shadow is really noisy. I need another meet to start really putting this together. It is funny that none of the books or experts that I have found on the web have pointed out these critical issues, seems fundamental now that I hear it.<br>

Thanks</p>

<p>Gary, I also have shot gymnastics for over 15 years (actually over 30 years) and have now gone into digital. I'm now shooting with a Canon 50D and recently purchased a 24-70 f2.8 L series lens to add to my 70-200 f2.8 L lens, which is my workhorse for rhythmic gymnastics since they go from corner to corner of the mat. With artistic gymnastics, at the last meet, I was able to get much better shots but positioning myself in the middle of the gym, thereby getting the vault, beam and the floor quite easily. The exposure varied throughout the gym, having dark edges. I shot at ISO 2500 f2.8 1/500 mostly, which was what my Minolta digital light meter read in ambient mode. However, when working on the pics in Photoshop, I found I had to use levels to lighten the images (which all seemed a bit dark). I'm still shooting jpegs because I made the mistake of shooting at 15M jped + RAW and my 4GB card (Extreme IV) card was full in now time! You're right about getting the peak action. When I can, I like to get there early in time to shoot the gymnasts in warm-up since practice always helps. Cathing the peak moment takes practice, no matter how long I've been doing this! I recently opened a website with photoreflect.com since I live in Canada and I'm able to fill the orders at my local lab, and my customers can pay in CAN currency. All the other labs charged monthly rates or uploading fees or you had to use their lab. My second choice was SmugMug until I realized that customers were charged in US funds and you had to use their lab....sorry for going on so long...I enjoy following this gymnastics thread...never too old to learn (I'm going on 60)</p>

<p>Gary, I also have shot gymnastics for over 15 years (actually over 30 years) and have now gone into digital. I'm now shooting with a Canon 50D and recently purchased a 24-70 f2.8 L series lens to add to my 70-200 f2.8 L lens, which is my workhorse for rhythmic gymnastics since they go from corner to corner of the mat. With artistic gymnastics, at the last meet, I was able to get much better shots but positioning myself in the middle of the gym, thereby getting the vault, beam and the floor quite easily. The exposure varied throughout the gym, having dark edges. I shot at ISO 2500 f2.8 1/500 mostly, which was what my Minolta digital light meter read in ambient mode. However, when working on the pics in Photoshop, I found I had to use levels to lighten the images (which all seemed a bit dark). I'm still shooting jpegs because I made the mistake of shooting at 15M jped + RAW and my 4GB card (Extreme IV) card was full in now time! You're right about getting the peak action. When I can, I like to get there early in time to shoot the gymnasts in warm-up since practice always helps. Cathing the peak moment takes practice, no matter how long I've been doing this! I recently opened a website with photoreflect.com since I live in Canada and I'm able to fill the orders at my local lab, and my customers can pay in CAN currency. All the other labs charged monthly rates or uploading fees or you had to use their lab. My second choice was SmugMug until I realized that customers were charged in US funds and you had to use their lab....sorry for going on so long...I enjoy following this gymnastics thread...never too old to learn (I'm going on 60)</p><div></div>

<p>The amount of light reaching the sensor is critical. Consider a 2.8 lens as MINIMUM. I used to shoot with 100 speed print film a couple of decades ago with an f/4 lens so this taught me alot about handholding technique as well as starting out from the bottom rung. This was when 400 speeds was considered "fast film".<br>

Canon 135/2 seems to be quite popular among the 1.6x crowd. It's not ultra expensive and is quite portable. I've seen a couple of 70-200 f/4 lenses among the crowds and they're not freezing the action shots, even at 1600iso. 85 1.8 also seems to be quite popular. <br>

Focus tracking is also critical. I've shot with the 5d mark 2 and the performance is, ime and imo, lacking on the full power tumbling runs. It just can't keep up. On the static shots or the slow movement shots, it works out fine. This is with the 200/2L EF IS lens and with the gymnast ending her run about 6 feet away from me. <br>

I now routinely use a 200 1.8L EF and 85 1.2L EF II with 1D Mark 3 and 1Ds Mark 3 bodies. The ratio of keeper shots vs the 5dm2 is much higher due to the faster computing of the AF tracking with the 1 series bodies. I got away from the zooms since the prime quality was much better, visible even in 5x7 prints, but I usually go for 13x19 or larger.<br>

Now some may ask why I go for the 1.8 vs the 2.0 200mm offerings. Simple. The 1/3rd of a stop will make or break a shot. It's that critical in some gyms, even with the ISO settings on "H" mode.</p>

<p>Just a quick follow up from the last meet. I set the camera to manual this time and made sure the exposures were as close to perfect as I could get. This is the darkest gym on the circuit so the shutter speed suffered since I kept the ISO at around 2000-2500, shutter speed was in the 1/250 area. <br>

What a difference. The noise and overall quality of the shots was much better than before. I also used long focal length lenses so I wouldn't have to crop as much. The problem is trying to keep the gymnists inside the frame but the keepers are real keepers.<br>

I think at any of the other gyms, with better lighting, these new techniques will really pay off.<br>

Thank you for your help.</p>