lawyer groom wants his deposit back even though he is canceling

<p>This is an easy one. Tell him "absolutely not." <em>Their</em> indicision should not cost <em>you</em> money. We are not in business to bail out everyone who can't make a decision. Tell him to get the $200 from his mommy if he doesn't like it.</p>

<p>Stick to your contract. If you have any doubt's then why bother writing a contract and having it signed anyways? You went through the trouble of coming up with a contract, well durr this is the time to use it! It's not about the money, but about the principle and integrity of your business.</p>

<p>A. Your contract iswith the bride. Nothing to suggest the groom speaks for the bride.<br>

B. contract is straight forward. The purpose of a deposit is to obligate both parties.Want to guess their reaction if you cancelled on short notice?</p>

<p>I would respond that the deposit will not be returned, but you do appreciate the courtesy of the early notice that you will not be needed.</p>

<p>"Tyler, read Bob Bollinger's post. Now, turn the light on. Ding ding."</p>

<p>I haven't laughed for a few days :) good reading......I'm with Martinez. I would have stamped and returned the original letter with my custom stamp that i had made at Office Depo. I use red ink...the stamp is 6.5 inches long with 1 inch high capital letters and reads<strong> "B U*LLSiH*T"</strong></p>

<p>if it's in writing it's admissiable in court. Any small claims judge would not reverse the deposit back to the groom. Every state law differs, go online and review contract law for your state.</p>

<p>LOL @ all the "Give him back his money" responses. That sounds like a <em><strong>going out of business</strong> </em> business plan. I'm guessing that anyone giving this advice has never worked for themselves.<br /> <br /> The whole "the customer is always right" and "give refunds no questions asked" concepts might work for you if you are a cashier at Walmart or folding tacos for Taco Bell; but for the small business, it doesn't work that way.</p>

<p>God, i hate lawyers. </p>

<p>Keith, many photographers give back a portion of the deposit as long as they are able to re-book the date. I think that is fair and avoids negative talk out there on the market from unhappy couples. </p>

<p>I have been very entertained by all of your responses & overwhelmed that there were so many! I do agree with Mary that there are reasons to give the deposit back to clients but I dont' think that choosing someone else is one of them. If I were to somehow book a wedding for that date, I wouldn't have a problem giving back someone's deposit. However, I will not go out of my way to desperately try to re-book for that date. If one fell into my lap, no harm done. But in the meantime, I am loosing a lot of money by not having a wedding at all on the date they are cancelling.<br>

Anyway, to those of you who are curious as to what I did...I wrote a letter to both the husband and the wife and sent them by certified mail. The husband's letter said that I needed to hear from his wife in writing stating that she wanted to cancel my services and that the retainer fee is non-refundable should she choose to go ahead and cancel. I also put in there that as of right now, I am still holding the date for them until I get written confirmation from the wife stating otherwise. <br>

The wife's letter said that I had heard from her husband that they were wanting to cancel but since she was the one who signed the contract, I needed her to cancel in writing with a signature. I again told her that the deposit was non-refundable if she chose to cancel but I am still holding the date for her until I hear from her otherwise.<br>

I mailed the husband's letter to his law firm and the wife's to their home. <br>

Thanks again for all of the responses. I really appreciate all of your input!</p>

<p>"God, i hate lawyers."</p>

<p>You might change your mind when you need one.</p>

<p>Nicely done Kacy! please let us know how this turns out.</p>

<p>Don't let this guy bully you. If your contracts are written correctly you have no worries. If he starts getting more persistent try a compromise of $100. Not ideal but if it becomes to much it allows you to walk away with dignity. Remember though that it is them who have broken the contract, you have not so therefor are not liable. Any good lawyer knows that! </p>

<p>yeah, right....</p>

 

<p >Ellis, in my experience, you still hate them. It's just that you're more tolerant of them.</p>

 

<p>I'm not a lawyer, but even I can tell you he's simply trying. Maybe wifey is putting him up to it and he's reluctant because he knows it's a no-win or figures nothing ventured, nothing gained, who knows? Can't blame 'em for trying.<br /> <br /> But like they teach you in law school: anyone can sue. The question is: can they prevail? Aha!<br /> <br /> By their reneging on the agreement, you're actually the one suffering damages, not them, as you're out the promised income for the day. As the damaged party, you'd have grounds to sue them, but instead, you've both already agreed ahead of time that in the event they breached the contract, you'd settle for the retainer to liquidate damages. They had that agreement in place for about four months.<br /> <br /> So, a simple stated letter reminding them of the terms they agreed to and wishing them all the best is all you need to do. Also, cover yourself by certified letter, return signature, indicating you acknowledge their request to cancel the contract and therefore will not be photographing their wedding. You don't want them turning around after the wedding day claiming they were expecting you there to perform on the contract, and because you didn't show up, NOW you would owe them everything back. They may claim that after they realized they weren't getting the retainer back, they decided to keep the contract in force, you know?<br /> <br /> And if that lawyer decides to take you to court, think seriously about contacting the Bar Association and filing a complaint about him, because as an attorney, he knows full well that any such action is more about using the courts to hassle you rather then seeking legal remedy, and the Bar Association would know that too. And having the Bar Association on your back is not what an attorney would invite.<br /> <br /> And in other news... when you have a low retainer such as $200, people may be more willing to walk away from their commitment. Let's say this other photographer said to them: "How much is Kacy charging you? Well, how about if I photograph your wedding for $400 less? Even if you don't get that $200 back from Kacy, you're still $200 ahead!". That's the kind of shenanigans you leave yourself open to. But if you took half up front, that would close that loophole right quick, wouldn't it? You need to have them be in it just as committed as you are.</p>

<p>G.E. Masana wrote "when you have a low retainer such as $200, people may be more willing to walk away from their commitment."</p>

<p>Ditto.</p>

<p>My retainer starts at $997.50 and is due with the signed contract. I won't even accept a contract until my clients have had at least a day to sleep on their decision either. I don't have cancellations after booking.</p>

<p>All the best with it Kacey, please let us know what transpires.</p>

<p>I'll try to keep it short.<br>

Send him a copy of your contract via certified mail. Highlight any information pertaining to the deposit. Hope it ends there.<br>

If he decides to take you to court, just return the deposit.<br>

You are faced with two problems.<br>

1. You labeled the $200 as a deposit not a fee. Even though you tried to label it as a non refundable deposit, Deposits are always refundable. A deposit implies you're only 'holding' the money and haven't taken ownership of it (In their eyes it's not your money to refund or not refund). The law says there is no such thing as a 'non-refundable' security deposit.<br>

2. Even if you had a technically tight conract, a judge can always question if it was fair to begin with. Read through as many caes as possible. It seems to vary quite a bit. Some judges decide it's not fair to be paid for money you didn't do any work for, so the make you refund 100% of it, Some understand that it costs you marketing money and meeting time so they make you give part of the deposit, and some understand that if you both entered into the contract knowing that a non-refundable deposit was in place, you should keep the money. It seems to vary from judge to judge however.<br>

My advice, try to keep it without going to court.<br>

It looks like he hasn't threatened with taking you to court. So he may just be leaving it up to you to assume that's what he'd do. As a lawyer he can't go around simply threatening people to get what he wants. He could lose his Bar if he just threatens. So taking you to court would come by way of him simply telling you he will and following through, or you getting served.</p>

<p>I think the moral of this story is to not even solicit jobs from lawyers, especially ones who can't even read & understand the terms on a simple boiler plate type of contract as the one they signed off on. Sorry to say but I've seen & heard more difficulty in business dealings with lawyers as a whole than any other group entirely.</p>

<p>Martin, read again the original post, particularly the last paragraph. Please.</p>

<p><em>"I think the moral of this story is to not even solicit jobs from lawyers, especially ones who can't even read & understand the terms on a simple boiler plate type of contract as the one they signed off on. Sorry to say but I've seen & heard more difficulty in business dealings with lawyers as a whole than any other group entirely."</em></p>

<p> I shoot for lawyers and law firms regularly and I don't any problems dealing with them or they with me. it's always a straight up business deal and I get paid promptly. Maybe I'm lucky or just a little more professional than others are.</p>

<p><em>The law says there is no such thing as a 'non-refundable' security deposit.</em></p>

<p>What law says that?</p>

<p>Here with ordering custom weird ITEMS for unknown customers we use a "non- refundable deposit" so we do NOT get caught "holding bag". Thus if your inkjet paper size you want is not a factory size; its a freak. Ie one might dream up a 32.5 inch roll size; I have to order a 36" 50 yard roll and pay my paper supplier 5 bucks extra to cut down the 36" roll to the freak 32.5" roll a client dreams up. If there is NO "non-refundable' security deposit" and the client changes their silly mind; I now have this freak custom roll size that is not saleable at normal prices; and not returnable to my paper vendor. Thus the amount of Non refundable deposit is set to maybe what the goofball roll would fetch on the firesale table.</p>

<p><em><em>A non refundable deposit is also used sometimes in printing too; maybe a new client wants some expensive fine art canavas that 10 bucks per linear foot off the inkjet machine; and the images is some stuff with dates on it; thus worthless after the event. One is not going to burn off a grands worth of images for an unknown client who may never pick up the work; it all becomes birdcage lining if not picked up. Thus non refundable deposits are a great tool so the other party has a vested interest in not weaseling out of a tranasction. How in the heck can a non refundable deposit be not legal?</em> </em></p>

<p>Here I do alot of printing for lawyers; court case exhibits.<br>

They are typically not a problem to deal with.<br>

<br /> Also I do printing for some DA's offices; crime scene stuff; sometimes extremely graphic.<br /> On a small fraction of attorneys have been a pain in the rear to deal with; typically its the middleman/runner who gave the wrong instructions.</p>

<p>One attorney maintains a postive account balance with us of about 500 to 1000 bucks. Billing with attorney work sometimes gets screwed up; one gets a check from Omaha that pays for all printing or 1/2 printing of the posters; and one doesnt even have a file number or case number to tie the check to which attorneys account; sometimes one has to really do some digging.</p>

<p>The inputs for trial posters vary WIDELY in input quality; an ancient old faded polaroid print; an attorneys disposible 35mm 4x6" prints; digital of all walks; cellphone; P&S; dslr; scanned junk the attorney in another state did that is TERRIBLE; my 1992 Mustek would show more shadow detail. Then one gets gobs of emails with images in wordperfect; emails that have been forwarded so many times its like peeling an onion to see what is there.<br>

Then one gets physical old prints to scan; old doctors scribbles for operations.</p>

<p>In one case long ago we had a women who shot her botched breast reduction horrific after-effects with a digital that was 1/4 VGA; ie 240x320 pixelsl; we made 24x32" posters for court.</p>

<p>Also one gets inputs for funerals; a poster for casket area; maybe a rush job were a teenager died in a car wreck and its closed casket; ie one gets gobs of teenagers emailing cellphone imeges and I widdle down and just print the best ones.</p>

<p>Many of these jobs have inputs that are 1/100 th the resolution that others ask about each day on photo.net; ie "how big can I enlarge my Acme X megapixel's image ; and it still look ok?".</p>

<p>In a way I am abit sad that these questions get asked each day; instead of folks being scared about doing some real world samples.</p>

<p>Some wedding photos are printed too; but dealing with Uncle Bob is a royal pain at times.<br>

It is easier to deal with ones clients that are wedding photographer and thus its all above board and no time wasted with ownership issues. There are boatloads of CD's of wedding images where there is no clue as to owership; no contact info; no clues; thus one often may not want to risk printing thus junk.</p>

<p>I feel silly....<br /> I forgot the original message after reading over 120 respones... sorry.</p>

<p>I love this! Putting the lawyer in his place! I actually called my friend to give him a laugh. He's a lawyer and a photographer. Look up Dave Welling. He's a gifted nature photographer, which includes some work with National Geographic.</p>

<p>He said to fight it. He hates lawyers!</p>