Senior Portrait - overweight female - sample images?

i agree "intelligent" adults "should" be able to have a rational discussion and i apoligized earlier for my scarcasim (if you read everything) which lead this down a path of debate and away from my orginal thought (which i'm responsible for and admitted earlier). i completly "get" what Chris was asking and I have explained (over and over) that it's not so much the "question" but the framework in how this discussion was emphasized which i felt was treating "overweightnes as a visual problem". I agree photographers must undertand perspective and different tools can "emphasize" or "detract" and as a graphic designer myself i understand about how line, space and color can add to general good design or standards of beauty (which is part of human existence). all i ever meant to say (except my sarcasim detracted from my point) was "i think we as photographers also have a responsibility to take into consideration that our "standards" of beauty are not always shared possibly w/ our subject's standard and it would be a good idea to explore what that might be for someone before one goes out of their way "covering" up something or "emphasizing" something...if it is a portrait where the client is paying for it i think it's a responsibility to find out "what they want" which might not be what we may "think" they want. that's it - never said Chris was wrong. I just think it's sad and short sighted to apply our own standards on others such as Jen implying a double chin is a "flaw" or as she put it:

 

"All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person."

 

this is an example of applying personal beliefs and standards to people and i do agree most women and men do not like to look bigger (in mainstream society) but i also am aware there are also many who this doesn't bother - it's a personal and cultural preference many times.

 

and Jerry my "rants" wern't about Chris but about other's comments and many of those lacked "respect" as much as mine. and now you are putting my intelligence into question the same as i questioned other's by your last post about "critial thought" so isn't this the same thing you accused me of earlier implying it was rude? this is worthless at this point. am am sorry for hyjacking a thread at this point because nothing seems to be gained i agree now. i've tried to explain my point but it's way over the top now so be it - but atleast i'm not boring and say what i feel and try to be compassionate and thoughtful w/ my clients and actions (usually).

I also don't disagree that Chris should do what his niece would like or with his wanting to represent her the way she wants with his best effort. That is great. I'm just very sensitive to how subjects such as these are framed and tried to suggest for people to be conscious not all people strive to be our own perception or subjective idea of "beauty". I did take it to another level than Chris ever intended this to go i understand and do apoligize for that. Aside from the long posts defending myself and feeling frustrated this is all i really intended.

Meg, I wasn't questioning your intelligence; only using an example of what I thought was a similar approach to your own argument. Sorry if it came off as improper.

 

I agree there's nothing to be gained by carrying it out any further though. Best of luck and again, sorry if it seemed offensive. That wasn't what I intended.

Chris thanks for asking, I am new and learning. No question is a stupid question. I will be asking them too, as long as I have them.

I've asked them as well Julie and i'm not upset he asked either nor did i say it was "stupid" yeeeshhhh it just goes on doesn't it? Jerry, i sense a true sincerity from you and really i'm not offended i can see how some of my sarcasm brought on a lack of compassion for what i was really trying to communicate. Anyway, best of luck too - and i'm not being sarcastic. I've also always been an advocate of people asking "anything". again i just had some concerns as how the conversation was framed - that really didn't involve Chris. My responses have not been too effective since i as emotional about it as i admitt i am a huge advocate of certain issues - considering my professional background. i do at this point sincerely apologize for hyjacking a thread and i think there was some good out of this.

One thing I have learned in my life is that simply because you hold an opinion, doesn't mean that it is absolute truth. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but I believe we should all try to do it in a respectful manner. Being passionate about a belief that others find wrong is common (if if you truly knew me, you would know that this is a common issue in my life, so I know both sides of it), and it takes work to develop a discourse that remains respectful yet opinionated.

 

Meg, I said nothing in my post to invite insult, and I refrained from insulting you. You do not know my social views on anything and assuming you can make an informed opinion after reading one of my posts is ignorant. I read your last post, and I am glad you see how emotions can over-run a valid argument and opinion and make your point less effective. I have struggled with balancing my passion for certain issues against being respectful with those who disagree. In short, I admire your passion, but please understand that insults and assumptions are what is ignorant and displays uneducation, not a differing opinion.

first off Jen - you didn't write a post (imo) that was some neutral voice - and i don't need to diasect anymore so don't play innocent. and secondly - it's a good thing really that you bring up the word "truth". because that's exactly what i'm talking about when i mention the term "ethno - centrism" the core of that term is that everyone has their "own truth/perception/taste etc" so i think i'm the last person to say there is only one opionion that is "true/false/right/wrong"....so if you understood my posts at all you would see all i was doing was asking people to consider their perspectives of what how a client would like to be "portrayed" may not be aligned w/ the client so it's something to consider. and third - you are passively (like in your first post) insulting me again while trying to act as if you have some clean slate during this discussion by doing the same thing you tell me implies "uneducaiton and ignorance" so if "your" truth about that would be correct (although what is truth really) then i guess we are both idiots now arn't we?

in your own words Jen you wrote:

 

"All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person. Societies implied beauty standards aside, you don't ask anyone with double chins to tuck their chin down and shoot from below them. Why empasis a flaw?"

 

i assume from this framework and thought your "view/truth" would imply that a person who isn't "skinny" is "imperfect, defected or weak" that is in fact what "flawed" implies. so, i logically deducted this must be your opionion and no i don't agree w/ it or respect it and am sure there would be many people who would find that insulting. but that's just my "truth/opinion" - not saying your wrong or i'm right just saying in my "truth" i find it offensive because i don't feel or see these things as flaws but that's just me and i understand that - and maybe i'm the only one in the world that would find some of these things beautiful or "not flawed" but again thats just me.....

Meg - why are you being so confrontational? I'm by no means experienced in terms of portrait photography, but it seems you're attempting to dissect a very certain and respected aspect of society. The point is, that everyone wants to look better, more attractive, more pleasing to the opposite sex - whatever you want to call it. You're making this an issue and saying it's something to be ashamed of when really it isn't; it's just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it at all.

 

Chris M, in my opinion you should do whatever is necessary to take fantastic photos that your sister-in-law's daughter will be proud to show off. Obviously, that doesn't include covering her in a tarp (possibly the funniest of meg reul's suggestions), but don't be afraid to do whatever is necessary to take a good photo.

Nathan - if you understood my posts or the term "ethno-centrism" you would understand that all i was doing was asking photog's to consider our "personal" perception of beauty isn't always another's. so, i agree it's human nature to want to look our best but what some consider "our best" isn't always what another considers....so it's nice to be aware of how your client feels because that's what is important....and it seemed in this thread most were treating "over weightness" to be a "flaw" as Jen put it or something to be covered and some people in this society may not consider a double chin a defect and so on......so i never said we shouldn't help a client to achieve what ever standard they are seeking to be portrayed.....i'm just pointing out beauty is subjective...and there isn't always a standard...i feel it is good as a photograper to understand how persective and long and short lenses can dimish or exaggerate...and this is good to know - but i couldn't help but chime in to say - hey please consider that not all people feel ashamed of certain attributes - but i do agree most everyone wants to be portrayed their best (key word is "their)......

by the way - i'm sure being misunderstood or just plain way over someone's grasp of comprehension can be percieved as confrontational...

also Nathan writes: "You're making this an issue and saying it's something to be ashamed of when really it isn't; it's just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it at all."

 

also i never said wanting to look good is something to be ashamed of - again though beauty is subjective and a photographer should beware of this - also i do agree most people don't like being over weight...i get that but i know many people who are bigger by society's standards who are soooo fine w/ a big ass and double chin...i know this is really hard to understand for people like Jen who consider it a "flaw" but that's my experiance.....