Custom ULF Ebony

Sure I would love to save money BUT for me the issue is one of build quality. Let me ask a new question related to my original one: has anyone ever compared an Ebony ULF with that of another manufacturer and determined which is superior (by all criteria)? No speculations or assumptions just because the price difference is astrominical, BUT actual comparisons of perceived value. I read the review of the 8x10 and was extremely impressed. Jonathan, if what you suggest achieves the exact same objectives then YES, DONE! I do not want to throw money away but I certainly do not mind paying for quality. I realise that it does not guarantee better pictures (just like buying a Ferrari does not make us Michael Schumacher, but boy what a car!!!) but at least I will feel that, whatever make I purchase for ULF, I have spent my money wisely. Just because I save thousands does not necessarily mean that I am NOT throwing away money (and vice versa of course).

 

I see that there are some people in this forum who still recommend Wisner ULFs. Has the experience with Wisner improved recently?

Just to add one more thing: I am not simply selecting Ebony to the exclusion of others. All are being considered. However, there have been many threads which are quite negative towards Wisner, hence my trepidations about that product. I am investigating Lotus as we speak. I am aware of Canham. But once again, his cameras are not perfect either. Do you know the saying "if you want to buy something expensive buy a cheap one". This business of ULF, especially if you are like me and are very suspicious of second hand items (just me), is already expensive to begin with. The extra money spent to avoid horror stories or false promises or ill fitting items or joints falling apart in the field, etc. is to me worth the extra expenditure. Try talking to someone who only ever has his shoes custom made (bespoke). Do not ask him about the price he paid because you will never get it. But ask him how the shoe "feels" and how his feet feels. What price do we put on peace of mind and great service. For me, price becomes an issue after these criteria have been fulfilled.

 

I notice that in another thread someone recommends the Shen Hao 8x10. Is this recommendation implying that the Shen Hao is equivalent in ALL respects to the Ebony? Has anyone actually compared the two (build quality and field use) side-by-side?

I have absolutely no idea how much the Ebony 20x26 cost! This friend happened to have a huge inheritence, so money was not an issue at all. We did not discuss the cost. At that time, looking and handling this amazing machine appeared to be what mattered! Sorry.

 

I myself was seriously considering a 11x14 Ebony. This cost something like 1.1 -1.3 million yen (Don't know what the conversion rate to USD is), but I think it is more like 15-17,000 USD (yikes!). By comparison, my second-hand Tachihara was much, much, cheaper, and structurally quite good, although it is something like comparing a Toyota Corolla to the Lexus 400. Both will bring me from A to B. For my purpose the Tachihara would be fine, and I am sure a Wisner (if you can get it delivered!) or a Lotus etc. I am by the way, quite happy with my Tachihara.

 

Francis' question was not about about the cost and value for money. He appeared to be more interested in getting the best equipment. The quality of the product and the service provided by Ebony is more important. I am sure that he would have made some background research about the cost, and despite that, still interested. I think my perception is right. While we all want to save some money, it is not necessarily the uppermost criterion for Francis. I have no illusion that the Ebony 11x14 can make me a better photographer. But I am sure that it will make it just that little easier and more pleasurable in the process of photograph making.

 

For what it is worth, to summarise the reasons for the high cost of the Ebony. The main reason appeared to be the high cost of technicians in Japan. The total cost of the titanium and other materials certainly do not justify the high premium. Ebony cameras apparently are made by the very best of Japanese technicians. It had been mentioned that the cost of the cameras can be lowered by employing cheaper technician. But the Ebony Camera maker just would not have it!

Thanks for that response. It is not the first time I have encountered a Japanese manufacturer not skimp on anything (i.e. best materials handmade by the best craftsmen) no matter what the market dictated (via pricing). They have a personal satisfication to their creations which they prize above all (as I am sure other makers have too).

Ah well, I thought you had decided on Ebony exclusively, which is definitly not a bad choice. OTOH given the level of craftmanship,service and rigidness you are expecting and willing to pay, the only other maker I would consider given these conditions would be Philips.

 

I have been toying with the idea of replacing my 12x20, and made some research into this. Myc onclusions were:

 

Wisner are fine cameras, and it seems lately he has been doing a good faith effort to correct the delivery/promises problem. Never the less, it seems those problems are still present and frankly I would be nervous putting down $7000 for a camera without a firm delivery date.

 

Lotus, fine cameras but seem to be a little on the wobbly side.

 

Canham, again fine cameras and excellent customer service, but again seems the camera is too light and suffers from some instability. Apparently he uses the same base for all his ULF cameras and those in the bigger range are a bit unstable.

 

Phillips, this is the one every body seems to rave about. Excellent customer service with firm delivery dates. Cameras that lock tight and are serviceable for years and very good craftmanship.

 

As you have found out, the only objection to to Ebony is their price. But those who own their 4x5 and 8x10 cameras are always extremenly pleased and have complimented their customers service.

 

Given your demands and ability to pay for them, I doubt you will find a better supplier than Ebony with the possible exception of Phillips.

Thanks Jorge.

 

Regarding Phillips, any changes in their moratorium on new orders?

That I dont know Francis, hopefully a memeber here can post his number or knows the status of the moratorium. Seems to me it has already been at least 6 months, so maybe he might be willing to make the camera for you.

 

OTOH, I am rooting for you to get the Ebony so I can see the pics. An Ebony that size must be an awsome sight.....

Francis,

I already assume that money is no object for you. The reason that I made my statments is this. (And...I have not seen the Ebony 12x20 in person but I'm sure it is impressive.I have seen other Ebony camera's though). For your information I do own two 12x20's, a older Korona and a brand new Wisner P 12x20. There are things that I like about each of them as each is a different design concept. That's why I say try before you buy...especially at that price. When you go to a camera as large as a 12x20 it is very different in operation, film develpment etc.,to the smaller formats so you better dig the time and trouble ULF demands to come out with decent results. You see...if you do get cushy with ULF, you are most likly going to want more ULF cameras in the future. Maybe an 11x14, or a 16x20 or even 20x24 will be the next step.Hence my suggestion for the less expensive cameras so you don't break the bank in your future expansions. Or you might ask Hiromi/Ian to see if you can get a 16x20 with a 12x20 back and an 11x14 back so you have 3 formats in one.Just a suggestion! And...this... is my generalized opinion about Ebony cameras vs the others...Ebony seems to be really good and the status symbol of LF cameras.I ask you a question....are you after a status symbol... or a great photograph... or both? I certainly like them/Ebony and can afford one but I am really skeptical about the hype involved with that company perpetuated by the buyers of that camera on this forum. If...and I say if.....Ebony was as smooth geared as my Linhof(it is not even on the same planet in this regard) and this smooth gearing extended to more than just the focus..in other words... most if not all of the moves being geared, than I would buy into the hype completely and buy one in a heartbeat. But unfortunatly this is not the case. The woodworking is very good...but not phenomenal..and the titanium is nice but with no geared moves so it really does just the same thing as all the others 12x20's.BTW Wisner will gear up the back and the front for you if you really want it. But there is no denying that the overall Ebony concept works great in practice and if you like this concept maybe this camera really is for you. Also you might want to know that Dick Phillips no longer makes 12x20's as his new machines will not allow a camera this large to be built. Good luck and happy shopping!

Mnay thanks for your response Emile. I do admit that the idea of multi-back 16x20 is a tempting one. Not every scene can be captured as 12x20. I will inquire about this if and when Ebony get back with their designs.

 

I can afford to have this camera made but money IS an object for me. By that I mean I will not throw away money simply to purchase the flashiest ULF out there if it fails to perform in the field. That is why I thank you for your thoughts concerning gearing. I will bring this subject up in my next correspondence with them.

 

Finally, regarding your question concerning "status": it will only be a personal (status symbol) one I am afraid. Hardly anyone you meet in the field here in Europe recognise a Leica much less an Ebony. Most just see us as users of the "old way" of photography. Hardly anyone believes that they still make new wooden cameras in the 21st century. And I like it just fine this way.

Francis...........since this is a matter of a custom camera with possibly new tooling it may cost you the same regardless of whether the camera is a 12x20 or a 20x24, for the amount of money involved you might consider giving them a 'bid', in other words, instead of asking 'how much' your project will be, tell them what you would like for the amount of money you want to spend.

 

 

'I want a 20x24 for x amount of dollars', they are not going to shout 'no' over the phone the second you make this request they will take some time and discuss your bid with their braintrust and their Artisans and they will give you a counteroffer or they will simply say yes they can do it.

 

 

They are not going to look down their nose at 10, 15, 20 grand, so they may consider making a 20x24 for the same price as the 12x20 since it will be a customized project no matter what they do, so I would not assume that since a 12x20 is so much, that a 20x24 must be more, if you automatically assume that, you're in a sense giving on a negotiating point that they may not insist upon for the bigger format, don't assume that they won't compromise on the issue of 'the bigger the format, the more we want', as opposed to your point which could be, 'it's new tooling regardless of the format so what about a 20x24 for this amount', they will consider it, I guarentee you, and at worst you get a counteroffer.

 

Deal, they'll deal, from what you've said, they looking at big money, they won't be so quick to ask you for more or say no, you've got the money for the project, they know that, they won't be giving you ultimatums on price.

Thanks for the advise Jonathan. Sounds like you must be in the same line of work (trading financial derivatives) as I am. Either that or you are a very astute chess player.

 

As regards whether it will require new tooling, I think that an earlier post mentioned that a friend had ordered and took delivery of an Ebony 20x26. Would the tooling not exist already then? I have to ask this about that camera: do you know how much your friend paid for it? Was it made of mahogany and titanium? Where the movements and focusing geared?

 

As an aside, anyone know what the exact dimensions are of the AWB and/or SS 12x20 film holders are?

No trading, I did play in chess tournaments in my earlier days, but don't play much now, I believe it's Piang Ngok CHONG that has the buddy with the 20x24 Ebony and since that's already been made, maybe you can ask about the price for that camera since they can't say they're starting from scratch, go ahead and ask, 'cuz all they say is no.

 

When you get the camera Francis, I'll be trading you one days use of that 20x24 Ebony for a six pack of Ichiban.

Francis, I'm surprised since you live in Europe that you don't look very seriously at the Lotus company as it is, so to speak, in your own "backyard". And with the added benefit that they make excellent film holders too.Ebony will not make you a film holder, they just don't do this. Also if something needs a fixing down the road you dont have to ship it that far to get it repaired. And you can get to know them/Lotus in person as well. Someone to talk to face to face.This is really important in a ULF camera purchase when problems occur.They seem like nice people and they have a really cool new 20x24 that is completely motorised(electric).A bad ass machine! I highly doubt though that you will get geared moves or a discount w/Ebony but you can try.I recently saw a 20x24 Wisner(at the MA. factory) and all I can say is that I want one! It has the front focus/moves? connected to a knob in the rear making it more convienant to operate than a standard set up. A real nice camera.Maybe I'll get one in a year or two if I can't shake the urge. If you don't mind I would like to offer you a suggestion...make it a point to see the Lotus 12x20 in person and talk to them and see if you like their cameras. If you do, then buy from them and save $11,000.00.Even if you like the Ebony better(you probably will) it might be better to purchase the Lotus because of proximity of the company and monetary($) concerns. The only reason I can personally see for the Ebony ULF is if mahogony and titanium is a feature you can't live without. Or if they will put a U-back on it.If you have it made in ebony it will weigh a ton...but it will look great! Remember that these are very large cameras and by this fact they weigh a bunch and have a lot of metal and wood in their construction. This, coupled with a monster tripod any brand of camera will be pretty solid naturally so is stability really an issue here? Not as much as in the smaller formats. You have 35lbs of camera to battle the wind with. But at $10.00 a shot it might be better to let the wind die down completly before the click.Or dont photograph on windy days.Also with that bellows racked out you really do have a giant box kite.This is really just a fancy box you are buying....Good Luck!

I have not seen the Lotus in person but I have already inquired about pricing for camera and holders. Was there not some negative comments concerning the metalwear of their cameras? I will make the time to visit them in the fall. I also know that the delivery time is about 7 months (i.e. order in September, delivered by early Spring 2004). Shame about Ebony and film holders. They could ensure perfect film holder fit to their custom ULF if they did make their own. I still await further emails from them concerning movements and other specs.

Concerning the Lotus cameras. I have never used one and there doesn't seem to be many users on the forum. But, when I was asking about a lotus when I was looking for my first LF (4 x 5) camera. I did recieve one e-mail from someone that claimed to have used several of the larger models. He stated that they were beautiful cameras, but at least the larger sizes that he has used (I think it was 11 x 14 and up) were not as rigid as he would have liked and there was some fast wear concerns with the Delrin parts. But like I said this is second hand info from one person I don't know. So take it for what ever it's worth. Which might be nothing. Good luck and have fun.

I have recently seen a 4x5 Lotus and it seemed fine in construction etc., even if a little bit light like the Canham.A pro scenic photog was using it and had a very favorable liking to it. BTW he uses only Linhof and Hassie for his bread and butter so I'm sure the Lotus is fine as he can afford anything he needs.Personally I'm not wild about the Lotus or Canham's looks as I like the wood/brass thing, hence the Wisner I own. As far as stability on a 12x20 is concerned the worst you will have to do is put a second cheap tripod to brace up the front and it will be solid as a rock for under $100.00 ! I do this on all long exposures inside to deter any drift of the front standard. As far as Ebony is concerned you will have to buy your film holders first then ship one holder to Japan for a perfect match while your camera is being built.It is harder to build a film holder than a camera and I was told if Hiromi built an Ebony film holder it would cost a fortune....and if Ebony says that they must mean it! Remember that there are plenty of great photographs being made today with 100 year old Koronas and Folmers. Also is it worth $10,000.00 to you to replace a delrin gear once in a while on the Lotus? If it were up to me to buy a 12x20 again for the first time I would buy the Wisner because it is a great camera and I can tolerate the time delays(BTW I got mine in 6 months) and it has the most bang for the buck.Its a bonus that I like the Wisner better than all the others for the looks and if I put a nick in it I'm not going to have a fit. I also live close to the factory so this is a major plus point. If I wanted it fast I would buy used. If you want the best construction (10 to 20% better)and service get the Ebony. But for 4x's the price of the Wisner and almost 3x's the cost of the Lotus and Canham I guess it adds up to what your real needs are. If money were no object the Ebony would be it... but since the mortgage must be paid and the kids fed, and in real usage there is no big difference at all except minor points....well....

The Ebony is absolutely worth every penny. I have 4 of them, the largest

being 11x14, and intend to get more. No I am not wealthy, I do not own a

house or even a car and my wife works, but you must keep your priorities in

order. If you really care about photography, go all the way. Yes the pictures

are better. Very few field cameras have the proper alignment between glass

and film to get perfect focus. Lotus and Ebony are the only two ULFs that do. If

you are thinking of getting an Ebony and want to see some, call me. I love to

meet LF photogs. 212 807 1403.