Rollei 6008AF digital bundle a big mistake?

As a current owner of a Rollei 6008AF I was thrilled to hear that Rollei had announced the

release of the their digital bundle. It contained (of all things) a 6008AF body, a 80mm

Xenotar lens by Schneider and, a db 20P digital back!!!! Untethered shooting would be

mine at last. WRONG. Rollei has stated that it's digital bundled solution would not be

available for current owners of the 6008AF and that it couldn't be retro-fitted to my

camera.

Wait a minute, are you talking about the camera I purchased a year ago? "YES SUCKER-

you spent $4,000.00 for a piece of un-supported tripe that we will neither retro-fit or

trade-in for our current offering." (they didn't say these things exactly but,...you get the

idea)

When I spoke to Phase One about this digital back I was told that this was a "one-off

product comissioned by Rollei and that there would not be a stand alone solution offered".

They seemed surprised that this was the case since "no other camera company" had ever

been so obtuse and disrespectful to their current customer base.

I tried to contact Dr. Otto Fix several times for advice and guidance but was never e-

mailed back. You can reach the president of Rollei for comment: o.fix@rollei.de but don't

hold your breath for an answer or better yet, contact RolleiUSA. Oh, yeah, it's gone...and

the service people are outsourced independants that neither appreciate or understand

Rollei's views of this problem. Your current Rollei gear can and will be repaired by

competent individuals should it need service but, there are no promises that you can get

any updates to your current gear to make it work or work better in the future...thinking

about that Rollei

6008AF digital bundle? Better hope Rollei doesn't come out with a full frame back in the

near future or any improvements for that matter...DO THE LETTERS S.O.L MEAN ANYTHING

TO YOU.

Doesn't either Phase One, Leaf, Jenoptik, Sinar or Imacon/Hasselblad make adapters to

use their digital backs on your existing camera? If so I wouldn't sweat Rollei's goofiness.

 

But my long standing prediction is that by maybe 2007 we'll be left with two

manufacturers of medium format cameras: Hasselblad and Mamiya.

And Pentax

Most of the solutions you are alluding to are tethered. Phase One and Imacon are the only

offerings that are untethered and, they only work with adaptors. Any time that you

introduce a

secondary mechanical device to a digital back, you introduce the potential of

missalignmnet

with the focal

plane. The digital bundle thing is the only option that is both untethered to a computer

and operates without additional spacers. Maybe I'll just buy a Contax 645 and call the

whole thing off. With Phase One's new P45 I'd get 1.1x ratio on the Contax as opposed to

1.6x with Rollei.

I thought some people considering this camera system would want to

know that Rollei may not be their best option. Wouldn't you want to be informed? At least

my information comes from the point of view of a professional that uses Rollei and not a

sales team or

marketing campaign.

and, by the way, Ellis...I just love your photos. You tell a compelling tale without so much

garbage- right to the core.

I "feel your pain" on the Rollei situation. But why buy Contax? A discontinued system is just like going down another dead end road.

If you want 645 digital Mamiya is there now and Pentax is on the way.

It is unfortunate that Rollei could care less. With their arrogant attitude and price structure they will not survive. Fugiblad? No thanks.....

Well, Fred, I understand that Contax' ship has already sailed but, it was the best 645

available (the last dinsaur to host Carl Zeis lenses) and it's still being supported by Phase

One and Imacon without a retrofit. Clean connections with clear and clean lenses makes

for pretty pictures with world class bokeh and contrast. I wonder if Phase One will pick

them up and give Hasselblad/Imacon a run for their money. It would be the smartest

move that they could do considering that Contax is still rather saught after. It's not so

rediculous considering that Phase One is the industry leader and could well afford to make

this move. I'd take a Contax/Phase One marriage over a Fujiblad any-old-day. I don't

care that the Blad is faster- I prefer the look of Contax' output: more of what I want and

less of what I don't. To be honest, I don't know what to do. What is the best solution for

uncompromised images? I haven't heard anything to suggest that Mamiya lenses are

anything special and the body just feels cheap to me. And, I'm getting a little long in the

tooth chaseing the Pentax carrot. Will that be upgradeable when it comes out- cause the

way it's lookin' it's gonna be pretty far down the line from "cutting edge" by the time it

sees the light of day. With Phase One talking about 39MP 645 backs I don't see how

Pentax can compete. And...what about their lenses?

the fujiblad lenses come highly regarded.

 

did you do a side by side test with the contax? (i'm sure there is a comparison somewhere on the web)

Rollei's arrogance tends to cause irate customers... They got me to that point several times as well. Having said that, you may weigh your reaction.

 

The Rollei system is a superior 6x6 system and previous poster's comments on using an Imacon or a Sinar or another back are certainly valid. Just use your Rollei and system, get any of the other backs and be happy.

 

The digital future seems to 6x4.5. Mamiya is too plasticky for me. Pentax has a wonderful system and the lenses are certainly first rate. Moreover, their digital back may be reasonably priced and who knows - there might be a bigger one two years down the road. For me, the leaf shutter system of the H1 with its limitations on lenses etc. wouldn't be my piece of cake...

I think the post is missing the point. The advantage of the Rollie bundle is to provide a

complete package for a modest price. They could well have provided the back and

adapters for the price of the bundle, and been market priced - so the deal is still real.

 

That's not to say its all perfect - I am concerned about the ease of "over-writing" shots, if

the camera takes them quickly and the back saves them slowly. That alone has given me

pause. But I still shoot with the 6003 bought some 10+ years ago (just got the Pro body,

to prepare for digital!), and love the lenses with the camera.

 

As to the Contax - IMHO no comparison. I rented one for a weekend, and never shot a roll

with it. Too cumbersome and awkwardly weighted, at least for this individual.

 

As to Rollei's "accessibility", well, yes, that's a problem. But its not insurmountable. If you

treasure the gear, you'll find a way. At least (for the time being) they are still in business.

And that, for my 2 cents, is a good thing. Are they competitive with Hassy, or the others,

in taking care of their customers? Not with ads, storefronts, and vendors, and ease of

service. But the product is awfully good for a company with little resources. Or for any

company at all.

I have to agree with Robert, The 6000 Series is supposed to be a SYSTEM., and the way the digital bundle work is no where near a SYSTEM approach. Sorry but if I want a film digital hybrid system. The Hassy and Contax look far more enticing, and possibly the Mamiya too. But definitely not Rollei.

 

I simply cannopt understand how the Rollei managment see themslevs and their product positoning in this ever changing market. They seems far out of touch with real world

Robert, the PhaseOne P20 retails for about $16 900.00. The Rollei db20p is essentially the PhaseOne P20 but I am sure you already know about that.

 

For about $15 000.00 for the db20p, you are essentially getting a free Rollei 6008AF and 80mm Xenotar lens for the price of the digital back. It being a free 6008AF and lens you can choose to reject them, of course. But I don't suppose it would be fair of you to ask Rollei to return you the retail cost on a 6008AF and the Xenotar. That is not how bundles work.

 

So pay the $15 000.00 for the db20p and enjoy a free 6008AF and lens. You're getting one hell of a good deal so don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

You are right, of course, I shouldn't be at all angry that I just shelled out $4,000.00 for a

camera kit that WON'T WORK on the new back I'm gonna buy for ANOTHER $15,000.00-

hell, I'm lucky!!! That's perfectly logical.

Just in case you missed that point earlier: THE BODY PRODUCED A YEAR AGO DOESN'T

WORK WITH THE NEW BACK. It's not gonna be fetro-fitted either.

So, that gives me: NOT an EXTRA body but just a body that doesn't enhance ANYTHING in

my NEW system. And, just for the record, my total comes to $19,000.00, not $15,000.00.

You're Right- that sure is a DEAL.

It seems that "gift horse" you were talking about should be called Widow-maker or Deal-

breaker or, better yet, we could just cut to the chase and call her Bankruptcy.

And, while I'm at it, let's talk about the conversion factor for the 6x6 vs. 645 thing just

once more: Yes, a few manufacturers have produced backs that will retro-fit the 6008AF.

I think only one doesn't require a shim or adaptor AND most are not square but

rectangular and will not provide anything that approximates full frame imagery. While, on

the other hand, Phase One is prepared to give 645 users 1.1x on thier P45. Now for you

math freaks out there, that equates to 50% more useable information than can be obtained

from ANY 6x6 with a digital back. Let's factor in the fact that square chips are being

considered a novelty by back makers and any thoughts about a "wonderful system"

evaporate and are replaced with "OBSOLETE AND UN-SUPPORTED" .

Now, mind you, despite the fact that I have a beef with Rollei (and I have a right to) I still

find the 6008AF to be a superb film camera. I've always been very impressed with it's

performance. I just think it's sad that I find myself in this situation when otherwise I'd

have to say that I'm completely happy with this camera. Would I recommend that anyone

purchase this camera? For film only- YES!!! As a "System" that allows for digital/film use?

NO WAY!! I love 6x6 and wish that the industry supported this format more but, the

reality of our world is that most pro shooters use 645 and the back industry has to

respond to those numbers. I wish I would have known that BEFORE I purchased this

camera because I was searching for the ideal marriage between quality and expandability.

Any way you slice it the Contax 645 was the camera I was looking for and should have

purchased. It's IMAGES not it's bangs and whistles make it the best lens/camera/back/

film combo available and I, for one mourn it's passing. No other combination comes close

to producing that "look" that I find more realisity and beautiful than ALL others images.

The H1's images look strange to me: the colors are wrong and the feel of them comes off

as rather plastic. I feel divorced from them or set apart somehow. The Contax images in

comparison feel like they could breath or live. Pentax images, on the other hand, seem

dull or muddy when view side by side with the others. They lack punch or immediacy.

These are small distinctions that others might not see but, good or bad, that's the way I

see it.

>shiver me timbrrrre , aug 10, 2005; 10:16 a.m.

>Robert, the PhaseOne P20 retails for about $16 900.00. The Rollei db20p is essentially

the PhaseOne P20 but I am sure you already know about that."

 

Actually the P20 is $10 900,- and the Imacon 96c (same chip) is $9 900,-. So you are in

effect paying 5 grand for the Rollei.....

Robert, the following is an e-mail I received from Rollei regarding your thread:

thanks for your information, which has effected an internal discussion.

The fact is: Cameras produced before 2005 (the start of the Rollei db20p launch) cannot

be errorless used with the db20p, they will occasionally cause an error message from the

digital back, that a camera synchronisation error has occured. This is the case, when the

camera switches off in power save sleep mode after 30 sec. of non use. Switching on the

camera again with the release button will provide a sync. signal to the digital back, which

expects to follow an integration impulse. But this integration impulse will not follow, the

digital back reports a sync. error after 3 seconds. We therefore implemented a small

additional resistor on the camera's PC board to suppress the cameras start up signal to

avoid confusion on customers side. All cameras bundled with db20p do have this PC board

modification inside, older cameras have not but can be updated on our side, but of course

it is not our intention for the moment to sell the digital backs seperately, as we would like

to get bigger market share with a very price attractive bundle camera. Supposing you are

aware of the market price level for digtal backs, you will agree that 15000 US$ is a very

good price for the bundle. Selling single components out of this bundle will cause higher

prices in total. Rollei will not sale the digital back alone, but we are not aware, if PhaseOne

is doing so. Maybe we will receive some more requests in the future, both for seperate

digital backs or from customers, who would like to update their older AF cameras.

 

I hope to have given you some usefull information and remain in the meantime

 

with best regards

 

Kay (Mr.!, I know that in USA the name Kay is mainly a female name...;-)))

 

Gabriel Stillwater schrieb:

 

Dear Ms Horster,

 

A few months ago you told me that the newest digital back being sold with the current?

6008 AF digital bundle, could be used on any 6008 AF and 6008 Integral II camera. Now I

have heard that this is not the case.

I'd argue that you should at least give them the benefit of the doubt. This morning I received a long e-mail from the same person, Mr. Kay Hoerster, on a related topic, which was similarly insightful. Made me believe the engineering genius is still there. Probably important to talk to the right person, especially if they are understaffed. They are certainly very actively thinking about the issue of digital backs.

 

You should definitely perform blinded (as the make) side-by-side comparisons between the major optics companies. None of what you are stating would hold up. Rollei's strength is their humongous system, the convenience for 6x6 square, and the wide range of outstanding choices.

 

However, differences between lenses and makers are minute. I have been nothing but impressed by the Pentax lenses. I am sure the Fuji lenses are outstanding as well. There may be minute differences, such as the smoothness of some of the Schneider images, but even the APO and non-APO lenses of the same manufacturer behave more different from each other than manufacturers among each other. Mamiya 7 lenses may have too much contrast for some tasts, but are nevertheless outstanding lenses as well. Having said that though, it may be that Rollei has the widest overall lens portfolio if you are willing to pay for it and if they stay in business.

 

Take your camera, have it fixed, put a back on it, and shoot.

No, I do not think it's a mistake. Look the DMR. Is it a mistake - may be for the Canonist, Nikonist, but for me... It is another world : I do take the same time to take a picture with DMR or film. So the 6008 AF is the best you can get in middle format and with a digital back - the perfection !