Unsatisfied Amateur

As this is the Philosophy of Photography forum I want to broach this

question. I have been taking photographs for 44 years, I am now 56

years old. Last night I hung some photos taken by my uncle and first

instructor,Edgar Stephenson. A professional photographer. I have had

these B and W's for years. Now that they are hung in my living room

and I have perused them I see that my knowledge of photography is

child like in comparison to his visualization and knowledge of

exposure and enlargement principles. I would like to reinvigorate my

photographic "stasis".

 

What do I do at my age? There is no college of photography close to

where I live and I do not seek a degree. I want to further my

knowledge of light, composition, darkroom and exposure. I would love

to learn how to expose for a light value spread from zone 2 to zone

8 and use my enlarger to adjust for the range to show up with proper

grey values in a finished print. This is just an example. But, it

explains my new found frustration as an amamteur. I want to do this

for myself, no haughty ideas of becoming a major player in photo

circles. I have read everything from Ansel to Kodak. I use a Nikon

FTN that I purchased new and a Mamiya m645. The cameras are no

mystery to me, professional exposure and manipulation to a final

print are. I use a LunaPro S light meter when not going TTL.

Tony, I'm about half your age, but I'm just as unsatisfied. I'm working to slowly master black & white developing, scanning and inkjet printing; no room for anything more than a dark bag at the moment.

 

I've found that my biggest advances come when I take risks. Shoot in light that you don't know how to use yet. Use developers that you've never tried. If you always shoot 400 speed film, try 100 or 1600. Do it systematically, and keep notes. <br><br>

 

You might be interested in <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00CSle">this</a> thread over in the wedding forum.

A big topic Tony.

 

I love photography because it is a way of expressing my way of seeing. A friend of my wife's who studied photography at Syracuse University looked at my photos and knocked them down, one by one.

 

She was looking for technical faults. That may reflect the direction that her photography course took. For me, the two important points are the line drawing or a message/statement. The former tend to be architectural, carefully composed and shot on slide. The latter have been grab shots on colour negative, though I have recently returned to a rangefinder and B+W. Two styles, both passionate in conception but amateur in execution.

 

Seeing is personal. I don't think it can ever mean the same thing to two people. I'm very myopic, top one per cent. No one knew I needed glasses til I was eight. So I spent my childhood in a blur, looking at images very close up. That's why I'm not into macro photography. It's nothing new for me.

 

Once, I volunteered to unwind a fishing line from the propeller on a boat. Only after I was underwater did I feel fear - from my vision - my nose touching the propeller as I felt for the line. Turn that into a photo.

 

Someone else can answer your question about college, perhaps a verified, top quality correspondence course if one exists, though I think this forum contains a lot of wisdom and experience.

 

From your reading and from your references to your uncle, I think you have all the knowledge you need. If I may be presumptious, I suspect your frustration is an indication of your talent.

 

In my experience (televison/radio producer and journalist) the only people who are really good are the ones who doubt themselves and strive to improve. The confident ones are usually men who learn a trick and, once learned, find they need nothing else.

 

These are my thoughts. As a photographic technician, I defer to you.

 

Mark

Do you want to learn techniques or vision? Craft or art?

 

"knowledge of exposure and enlargement principles" is easy enough to acquire -- just read books and practice.

 

But if you want to become a better Artist -- well, it's very much debatable whether this can be taught at all...

Tony, I am exactly your age and an amateur. But I am not

frustrated and I don't think you need to be. As soon as you have

seen what you want to achieve you are more than halfway to

getting there.<p>There is nothing magic or especially difficult to

printing any range of greys, indeed it is much easier than it was

in your uncle's day with the improved chemistry and multigrade

papers. As matt says, the answer is to experiment, push the

boundaries, and keep notes. <p>Well, that is the conservative

answer. The radical and much more exciting answer is to scrap

the enlarger and chemicals, buy a decent computer (preferably a

Mac), film scanner and printer and get, by hook or by crook, a

copy of PhotoShop - any full version, old or new. Your darkroom

experience will not be wasted but your range of options

becomes almost limitless. You can recreate any greyscale and

any toning you like and devise entirely new ones. And you can

then do the whole thing in colour with the same degree of control

as you wanted in monochrome. You will be in printer's heaven!

<p>Learning is basically the same - I did it the slow way just by

experiment but there are many good books / videos / CD ROMs

on the subject. If you're only interested in B&W equip your inkjet

printer with a monochrome ink set for the ultimate quality (or get

a second printer - they're not expensive - and do both).<p> You

need never be frustrated (well only transiently!) again. Have fun!

KAA,I politely disagree with the premise that any part of photography is easy to master by reading. One of the afore mentioned answers to my post said that being unsatisfied is the mark of one who does not want to rest on ones laurels. I have read tons of photo literature. Beyond the reading comes personal limitations. A principle of zone system photography is to expose, as I stated, for zones 2-8. The next is to develop the negative properly and then to adjust the f stop of the enlarging lens, dodge and burn as needed and push/pull the final print to fruition. If one can read these techniques in a book and understand the nuance, I want the name of the book. In my experience there is no substitute for guidance while one learns. I know that my uncle had tons of guidance at the San Francisco Art Institute in the '30's. His grey tones are crisp and boggling to the eye.

<i>...I see that my knowledge of photography is child like...</i>

<p>

Way to go, Mr Crowe

<p><i>KAA,I politely disagree with the premise that any part of photography is easy to master by reading.</i>

 

<p>That's because you missed the important part -- "by reading AND PRACTICE".

 

<p>Obviously, you cannot master the photography just by reading. You need to get your hands dirty, do things, try, examine the results, and try again.

 

<p>I would also politely disagree :-) with the implied assumption that things like photography have to be TAUGHT -- they cannot be learned on one's own. Actually, I would argue just the opposite -- that someone who learned on his own would often have a much better grasp of the subject than someone who was taught it in a school/university/etc.

I see what you are saying and I agree. However, the nuance of the technical aspects, at least for me, are something that I would probably do better at if worked with. Perhaps I will redouble my efforts and change the old stand by chemicals. As soon as I can learn from someone else what chems will render the results I am looking for. Thanks, KAA and all.

You didn't mention how often you shoot. I've been shooting for a year now after a long lapse since high school days. About a roll or two a week. More if I am on vacation. I learned that nothing can teach you more than taking pictures, and _learning_ from the results. That's more important than reading books and trying to understand the zone system, etc.

<p>

Technique is only a tool. You can't make good photographs without either technique or art. Concentrate on art, as was mentioned; technique requires far less time and effort. You can pay someone to develop and print, but you won't find anyone having YOUR artistic vision. Some people end-up spending all their time in means, and never get to the ends.

<p>

Go out and shoot and print as much as possible, but the key is to learn from each shot/print and concentrate on producing artistic results. Note the pitfalls, and do it better the next time you shoot. Ask questions, feel the scene, "envision the print". Save only the best work, throw the garbage out. It will raise your standards.

<p>

Here's good <a href="http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/howto.htm">reading</a>.

Stuart K. , jun 10, 2005; 03:55 p.m.

...I see that my knowledge of photography is child like...

Way to go, Mr Crowe

 

Thanks for the response. Would you clarify. I am always looking for constructive criticism and feel that you might have definite opinions on which way I should go. Tony

Hi Tony,

 

I honestly think you should forget about stuff like zone 2 and try and get back into

experimental photography. maybe get a digital camera and a computer . keep things simple.

 

Hope my earlier comments didn't offend. I like rhyming stuff.

Stuart K. No your remarks didn't offend me. One thing I like/need to do is re assess where I am in all endevours. Having seen my uncles photos after a long time I had to re assess what I thought of my own work. The thing I love about photo.net is the critical AND knowledgeable people that inhabit this bb. Thanks again.

Tony - I think I will have to agree with Stuart K. in regards to trying a new format. I was stuck in a rut with my old gear. I needed new equipment because my old gear was breaking down (Canon A1 and AE1 Program w/lenses). I switched to Nikon and bought an N80. The manufacturer doesn't make a differnce, the point is that it renewed my interest in photography. Afterwards, I switched to digital photography which opened up a whole new avenue, providing me with a whole new range of possibilities, and the experimentation has yet to cease and it's been about 4 years.

The point I'm trying to make is that maybe you need to free yourself from old habits and explore new possiblities. Jump into the unknown. Take a chance. Think outside the box...

"What do I do at my age?"

 

Ya got me by a few years; I'm 52. Stop worrying about what others, who you know or knew, are doing or were doing. Put their images away.

 

If I might, allow me to encourage you to learn about two words, "unique" and "impact" and see how you can apply this information to your photographic efforts.

 

The technical is something that can hobble one but here's three books you might have read in the past that I read and devoured in my "ute" as I learned B&W and the Zone System back in the late 70's.

 

Zone VI Workshop; The Fine Print In Black & White Photography, Fred Picker, 1974.

 

The Negative (Exposure - Development) Basic Photo 2, Ansel Adams, 1968, Fifth printing, 1971.

 

The Print (Contact Printing and Enlarging) Basic Photo 3, Ansel Adams, 1968, Fifth printing, 1971.

 

It's more about seeing the image, previsualization, before you make the capture, all you're doing in the darkroom is completing the process to bring about that what you saw, before tripping the shutter.

 

A couple of points, there is no such thing as a valid critique and if you're in it for your pleasure, ("I want to do this for myself,...") then stick to that plan cause it's a good one:)

This is the last previsualized image that I captured. Maybe it represents what it is that you're going through;)<div></div>

Practice. I think I remember one photographer saying he shot 3 rolls a day, even when he didn't really have a subject, just to "keep his eye in". Musicians practice every day (at least the good ones do) even though you think they "might not need to".

 

If you do it often enough you'll get it. It you do it once a month you won't. If you want to do B&W zone system work, read Adams' "The negative" and "the print" and maybe "Beyond the Zone System" by Phil Davis. Then put into practice everything you read. It will take quite some time but either you'll get there or you'll get so sick of photography that it won't matter and you'll take up fishing. Either way you win.

I sympathize with you, being of a similar age, and in similar circumstances.<br>You wrote:"<i/>I would love to learn how to expose for a light value spread from zone 2 to zone 8 and use my enlarger to adjust for the range to show up with proper grey values in a finished print. This is just an example.</i>. These are tools, like sentence structure in a novel, to make the finished product (print or screen image) convey the message you want. They are not goals in themselves. To make effective use of these tools. one must have a vision of the message, and then use the tools to accomplish the goal.<br>As specific examples, consider the compositional principles that (1)sweeping S-curves convey peacefullness, or (2) balance of the elements conveys stability. If your desired message includes these goals, they are tools to use. If they are not part of the the message, they are tools to avoid, or "rules to break" to introduce discomfort and/or tension in the image.<br>"Proper gey values", as you mention are likewise tools to convey the message. Some images are effective as high key, some as low key; some are high contrast including "blown highlights" or "blocked shadows", and are effective because of it.<br>They are like phraseology in prose.<br>Written from an amature, not an expert. I aspire to be able to practice what I preach; do as I say, not as I do, do NOT expect to find inspiration in my portfolio :-). But as I prefaced, this is what I too am trying to learn.<br>Cheers

<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prose">Prose:</a><p>

 

"To speak or write in a dull, tiresome style."<p>

 

I'm not quite sure that's what you were meaning to convey:)<p>

Thomas: yup, you're right about "prose"; it's what I did, not what I meant :-)<br>To condense my point: focus on the tools of imagery is like learning vocabulary to be a good writer; good but not enough.<br>Tony: On the exposure/printing issue; what do you want dark or light, flat or contrasty, and WHY.

"To condense my point: focus on the tools of imagery is like learning vocabulary to be a good writer; good but not enough."

 

Agreeing with you in my below:

 

I was kinda under the impression that he had already mastered the intro techie stuff and was being frustrated because he hadn't be able to develop out the artistic or creative vision/aspect of the photographic effort.

 

Some come by it easy and others have to work at it but if you don't actively chase it, you'll never catch it.

 

One flaw I might point out is the one which I read quite often; "Take pictures." as if that will make it happen. I feel that sort of philosophy is a guarentee to a dead end failure.

 

Why?

 

Cause just taking more snaps isn't going to increase your awareness. If you're mediocre and you do absolutely nothing to raise your awareness, then one is going to continue, frustrated in their mediocrity. My frustration is that the stupid day job (need for life sustaining money)keeps getting in the way of my artistic development and it's frustrating to have to stop for the seasonal business, then pickup where I left off, seven months later. I loose a whole lot of continuity and momentum in idea creation.

 

Right now, in the interium, I'm picking up a new set of legs and have taken the time to explore the technical issues which surround tripod legs and ballheads but as I'm waiting for this new tripod to come in, I'm not developing any new photographic ideas as my images of late are predetermined/visualized in their creation prior to exposure as opposed to happenstance. I don't use the "snap-happy" (Ansel Adams) method of photography:)

 

Just curious Tony, are you still participating in this thread? What are you doing to enhace your creative efforts?

Tony-

 

It sounds like you are confusing creative crisis with technical issues. Shoot and print what you see, how you see it. Forget about zones and tonal values. Technique won't get you there.

Hi, I am a young beginner so it is me who needs the practice. Problem is I seem to enjoy thinking out how to use cameras and all the rest, I really need to get my feet wet in a city with some people around me to photograph. Anyhow, I usnderstand and agree with Bob about why people need to practice, it is the same in all the best pursuits.

 

Perhaps you can find a new interest within photography that may be the spark that ignites your energy to continue. For me, it's people and it is that simple. I love landscapes et al, and I surely love the technique and patient side of it. When it comes down to it though there is usually one thing that drives people to do what they do. Some people I konw play music because for them it is easy, and some play it because they just want to keep going, they can't stop.

 

All the best.

Thomas, Yes, I am still a part of this thread. You wrote:

One flaw I might point out is the one which I read quite often; "Take pictures." as if that will make it happen. I feel that sort of philosophy is a guarentee to a dead end failure.

 

Why?

 

Cause just taking more snaps isn't going to increase your awareness. If you're mediocre and you do absolutely nothing to raise your awareness, then one is going to continue, frustrated in their mediocrity. My frustration is that the stupid day job (need for life sustaining money)keeps getting in the way of my artistic development and it's frustrating to have to stop for the seasonal business, then pickup where I left off, seven months later. I loose a whole lot of continuity and momentum in idea creation.

 

You are closer to correct, from my perspective, than others. Funny thing was, the day after I posted this my loving wife brought forth some B and W's I had taken years ago. they had all the spread of light values that I was yearning to discover. There was one MAJOR difference between what I did a few decades ago and what I have been doing the past several years. A handheld light meter. A Weston Master V. I guess what this means is that I have gotten complacent. I have been taking color negs and not going for the set up of B and W. For years I took only B and W. However, marriage, business and raising a family took over priorities and color "snaps" were result.

 

I am now remodeling my garge darkroom and plan to take some instruction from a wonderful person who offered assistance. Never to old to learn. I will maintain my attendance to this thread as long as it lasts and thanks all for the responses.

"I am now remodeling my garge darkroom and plan to take some instruction from a wonderful person who offered assistance."

 

I don't know if my comments did any good but I'll definitely wish you the best with both your up coming dark room and your creative photographic efforts.