kiev?

I've been really looking around at investing in a MF system as I'm

already set for 35mm, I've just began wanting to get more enlargement

capability, and things like that. I have 2 nikon manual bodies, and a

few lenses, I used those all through high school, but now that I'm

going towards college, I'd like something new.

 

I mostly shoot b&w, using 400 hp5+, and 125 plus-x, both developed in

xtol. If i shoot color, i usually use 100 ekatchrome or something

like that. so that's it for the backround...

 

So would a kiev 88 be a good idea for a student who's just starting

into MF over say a pentax, or mamiya, or other things like that. I do

have a budget of about 600-700 total, but if i bought a kiev, i could

maybe buy another lens or something like that... I don't know, and I

was just wondering what you all thought?

NO!

No!

Ben,

A brand new kiev 88cm with a one-year warranty will cost $450-550.00. Check Mike Fourman's ebay auction site. You can also look at the recent test (Kevin Ing) of kiev lenses with blad (this is a link in this forum), contax, schneider lenses. When they are stopped down, they give a pretty decent performance. The Kodak digital back has a resolution of 55 pixel pairs per mm. If the lenses have an edge resolution 50-60lp/mm, it will be hard for the back to resolve. Schneider 60mm, arsat 55mm PCS perform better than distagon 50mm. Even with a good mir 45mm, it can produce a respectable result against distagon 50mm when it's stopped down. I often read no's from people who don't even have any experience with kiev cameras. Biometar 80mm and 120mm, hartblei 150mm, arsat 250mm, and sonnar 300mm are very good. There are a lot of excellent lenses to choose from at very affordable prices.

 

Richard

I would advise against the Kiev. To be safe, you would need to buy a reworked version from someone that offers a warranty, and that would run about $450 or more. You're still not guaranteed that it will work for long, it's hit or miss with those cameras. Not to mention that they're based on 1950s technology. I just picked up a mint Bronica SQ-Ai, 80mm lens, 120 back, speed grip, and metered prism all with original boxes and manuals for $550. This system was just recently discontinued, and there is a flood of used equipment on the used market. Bronica lenses are excellent quality and very affordable used, so with your budget you could probably pick up a bronica outfit with two lenses. You can look a keh.com, they even offer warranties on the used equipment they sell.

If you want to start with MF, you could opt for a clean Rolleiflex for about the same price. A 3.5F is really a terrific camera.

 

As for interchangeable lens systems, there also are plenty of used cameras available in a variety of formats from 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 and 6x9 -- those being the most popular and within that price range.

 

There also are a good number of Bronica cameras that don't seem to be priced too high. I don't know enough about Bronicas to recommend which model would be best to fit within your budget.

*Maybe*

 

I started with a used Mamiya TLR (a system that can be recommended as a reliable affordable MF camera with available lenses from 55 to 250mm) and was very happy with that.

 

Just for fun I bought a Kiev 88CM from Mike Fourman plus a Zeiss 50mm and an Arsat 250mm. I have shot lots of rolls through the Kiev and the only problem I have (easily amended) is one darkslide that is difficult to get back in place quickly when I change mags.

 

Lenses are good!

 

A lot of the time I prefer the SLR (espcially for closeups) for the lack of parallax error. Other times (shooting IR) the TLR works better due to the unobscured viewfinder.

 

The problems with Kievs is that each sample tends to be different.

 

Mine may work flawlessly (touch wood) other specimens may be of a lesser build quality. Do not (yet) expect japanese quality from these beasts.

 

I would recommend a Kiev as a second MF camera anytime.

 

As your first one only if you trust your luck or if you have the patience to have it exchanged (Mike Fourman is supposedly very customer friendly) until you get a good one.

I would vote NO on the Keiv and YES on the Pentax 67. With your budget you can get an older Pentax 67 body and a couple lenses at KEH.com. The Pentax 67 and its lenses are highly regarded at any price and very high quality.

 

The TLR suggestions (Rolleicord -flex) would be good if you only had $200 to spend or something... you can do better.

Best to go for a Mamiya RB67 pro-S or a Pentax 67 mlu.

 

A really cheap sharp alternative would be a kowa super 66. Just make sure it has not been abused. They have a tendency to lock up but you can pick one up with a lens and film back for about $200.

Ben,

 

*IF* you do decide to get a Kiev, my advice is to *NOT* buy a cheap used one... as the saying goes, you'd be buying someone else's problem. If you get one, do buy it from a reputable dealer such as KievCamera.com that will still be there tomorrow in case you need service or a replacement.

 

Kievs are not known for their reliability or quality. But if (notice the "if") the body and film back do work properly, they are capable of producing excellent quality images, and the range of lenses available is the main thing that really keeps me going with the system.

 

That said, if you just want to take pictures, don't want to worry about whether or not your camera will work properly the next time you take it out of the bag, and don't really need the huge range of lenses... the Bronica series of cameras have really plummetted in price in the past few years. If you like rectangular images you could get an ETRSi or GS-1... if you want square there is the SQ. You could easily get a body, back, finder, and one or maybe even two lenses within your $600 to $700 range.

 

Anyway, before you go down the Kiev path, please do check Kievaholic.com and maybe even visit the Kiev Report Forum (linked from Kievaholic) to get more information on these cameras. They aren't for everyone... in fact, they are not for most people.

How about a Mamiya RB67 for $350? Or a Bronica SQ for not more than $400? You can buy another lens for any of these for $250 more, and you are still within you budget. Or another film back, and you are well within your budget.

No, search the archivies, Mamaiya 645 1000s.

hell no!

 

look at the mamiya RZ, not the II version. they are going for a song!

 

http://www.keh.com/shop/class.cfm?bid=RZ&sid=newused&crid=10125007

Ben,

 

Kievs aside...

 

As you can see, there are a lot of choices in medium format cameras and everyone has their favorites. Once you've decided that you want to buy one, the important things to decide on are:

 

Format - 645, 6x6, 6x7 are the common ones. There is also 6x8, 6x9, and 6x12.

 

And features...

 

Interchangeable finders - This will let you choose your viewing style of waist level or prism.

 

Removable film backs - So you can change between black and white and color, or negative and positive mid-roll.

 

Shutter type - Leaf shutter for faster flash sync or focal plane shutter for generally cheaper and faster lenses.

 

Electronic or fully mechanical - Battery dependency for film advance, shutter cocking, metering? Or fully manual with no battery dependency... or somewhere in between?

 

Lens range - Happy with just a few basic lenses? Or do you like to play with lots of different focal lengths?

 

Size and weight?

 

There's a lot ot think about and a lot of good information on Photo.net. You could search the archives for threads like "What camera should I buy?" and you'll find enough to keep you reading for a while.

 

Happy shopping.

No. Kiev glass is pretty good (Zeiss Jena glass is outstanding) but that's not a reason to buy the 88. Why do you need interchangeable backs? Unless you are planning on doing weddings, you don't need to shoot 220, nor do you need high output. Get a Rollei for $300 (which will buy you a Tessar lens) or, if you want to spend less, a Yashica-MAT, EM, or LM (all of which have the 4 element Yashinon). You won't have lost any money if you want to get more expensive equipment later.

 

According to surveys which have appeared in this forum, 80% of contest winning prints were shot with normal lenses. Improve your technique first. MF is an excellent way to improve your composition and posing skills.

 

Good shooting.

 

/s/ David Beal * Memories Preserved Photography, LLC

Kievs are waaaaay overpriced now. Pentax 645 (or Mamiya) are

comparably priced, offer far better quality, can use any

Pentacon-6 mount (via an adapter) AND their own lenses.

I have a Kiev88CM I bought from Mike Fourman. I love it. Does it have quirks? Yes. Do they bother me? No. Most cameras do. When I first bought it I put a thin strip of gaffers tape around the light trap on the camera. Some people complained about light leaks so I deceided not to take a chance. Metered prizm fits a little loose but no big deal. I am not a pro photographer so its not in my hands 12 hours a day. If you do a search on most or all other cameras you will find people complain about them to. Even the Hassys. Not a scientific Hypothisis but an oppinion

I picked up a Mamiya RB67 Pro-S system (finder, 120 back, 90mm C lens, and body) from KEH for about $350 last year. I've added a 140mm macro lens (again, a "C" lens) for $150. $500 in, and I have a system for landscape, macro, and portrait work that will rival anything out there. I'd happily stack it up against anything on the market for real world image quality and build quality. (I know a lens test can show other lenses have a microscopic edge over the Mamiya lenses...but I don't spend time shooting resolution charts. In the real world, the differences between top-tier lenses in MF are pretty meaningless.)

 

The Mamiya's built like a tank, is a breeze to use, and feels like it'll outlast me by about 100 years. Not a bit of trouble with it at all. I've probably put 100 rolls through it since I got it, and have not had one single problem with it. The images are as good as anything I've seen. The mirror dampening is good enough that I can successfully hand-hold the 90mm lens at 1/15th with great success.

 

I'd recommend the Mamiya over the Kiev (and I _like_ the Kievs)...but the more important message here is that, given the nosedive in prices of MF equipment as every pro in the world rushes toward digital, you can put together your dream system of used MF SLR equipment at a price point that matches or beats the Kievs. Reliable equipment that can be repaired by any competent shop can be had for a song these days. Always wanted a Hasselblad? Now's the time to get one. Have a fondness for the Pentax 645 system? Go to KEH and look at the prices. Prepare for a tough decision. The prices of any and every good used MF SLR system have tanked...which is great news if you're buying.

A Kiev 60 is reputed to be a LOT more reliable than a Kiev 88 and it's also less expensive. I'm very happy with my Arax 60 (a modified and renamed Kiev 60).

 

http://araxfoto.com/cameras/arax-60mlu/

A lot of people here recommended the Mamiya RZ/RB and the Pentax 67... while the image size is great (albeit only 6 square centimeters larger than a 6x6cm), they're going to weigh about 5 pounds with a lens and everything. Needless to say, you don't handhold these cameras. That may be great for you if you're a studio shooter. You'll have to decide first what type of image you want, but if you plan to handhold I would only seriously consider a 6x6 or a 6x4.5. I like the 6x6 square format because I have the option of making both sizes of images by changing the back or by croping. Getting a 6x4.5 will not reduce weight by much if at all (depends on the model), but you will have less negative space to play with, not to mention that you have to turn the camera on it's side to get a vertical shot, and unless you have the speed grip this can be very annoying. Also, you really can't use a waistlevel view finder with a 6x4.5 in a vertical shot unless you hold the camera out to your side, which you can imagine is a little awkward.

 

I wouldn't recommend the Rollei TLR either. They're great cameras (I have a Yashicamat which is similar and I love using it), but you'll want more in a short period of time and then that's 100-200 dollars less you have in your budget.

 

That's basically why I recommend Bronica. They're great, reliable cameras that are dirt cheap compared to a hasselblad and you won't tell a difference in image quality. Kievs are fine cameras, but you wouldn't want to be out shooting when the thing decides to jam up. Not to mention they don't have electronic leaf shutters in the lenses that can flash sync up to 1/500. They don't come by default with mirror lockup either. The mirror doesn't automatically return, and if you change the shutter speed at the wrong time you can destroy your shutter.

 

Just my two cents,

 

Ben

Mamiya 645e is good, I like it better than the 2 Bronica ETRSi I owned, no interchangable film backs,,that is OK, I shoot 100's of shots at weddings with my Hasselblads & NEVER change film during a roll. My lab gives beautiful B&W's from color negs if that is your complaint. Plus the shutter is far enough inside camera where your fingers will not hit it like on the Hasselblads (secondary shutter)

$750.00 to replace.

"I just picked up a mint Bronica SQ-Ai, 80mm lens, 120 back, speed grip, and metered prism all with original boxes and manuals for $550."

SWEET. I agree with Kevin Ing and other posters. To get the best Kiev with the lens mount that will take all the great East German plus Soviet lenses and brought up to snuff will cost as much or more than even a Hasselblad. I think they are interesting cameras but for folks with more disposable income-if the camera is a bust or ends servicing, it's not the end of the world. Bronica represents value, while Mamiya has been the most prevalent and best supported medium format company with 645, 6x6, and 6x7 cameras. Remember, that Mamiya was the creator under Mr. Mamiya of three of the greatest camera systems ever built-its C series TLR, the Mamiya Press/Universal, and RB67/RZ67. Buy from a reputable dealer who allows inspection and 2-week return. eBay is great if you can afford mistakes. ENJOY.

As Sheldon mentioned, I would suggest the Mamiya M645 1000s. You should be able to pick up a body, film insert, prism finder, 80mm f/2.8 C lens, 55mm f/2.8 C lens, & 150mm f/3.5 C lens in EX++ to Near Mint condition for less than $600. This kit would be far more reliable than a Kiev & would give you better photos on a more consistant basis. Also, via an adapter, you could use the Kiev lenses on a Mamiya 645 body if you were so inclined. Although older Mamiya 645 C lenses are so cheap right now, I don't know why you'd really want to bother with the Kievs' unless you wanted to use the Arsat fisheye lens.

 

I have owned both the Kiev 88 & the Kiev 60 and am very happy not to be owning them anymore. Here are my experiences with the Kievs':

 

Although the Kiev lenses are quite good, the bodies will counter-act any innate quality that the lenses have. The Kiev 88 has a shutter release that is so stiff, it is almost impossible to get unblurred shots without using a tripod & cable release at shutter speeds slower than 1/250 sec. As for the Kiev 60, the design of the film advance mechanism is so poor that it is very difficult not to have frames overlapping each other. I have also owned several Pentacon Six TLs' and though the spacing was sometimes inconsistant, I never had overlapping problems the way I did with the Kiev 60.

 

OTHOH, it is possible to get very good photos with the Kievs'. I have seen some excellent photos taken with both the Kiev 88 & 60. But the cameras are so unreliable, each time you take a picture, it is a bit of a crap shoot. FWIW, I would recommend that you avoid them & get something more reliable.

I have a Kiev 60 in the 6x4.5 format and I'm very happy with it. With the Biometar 120mmF2.8 lens its a fantastic portrait camera especially since the rectangle is in the vertical format which is ideal - no twisting the camera sideways! Its about the only camera that can boast that.

NO, NO and again NO!

I have kiev88 reworked with P6 mount and claimed to have reworked insides. It just died for second time that week and I havent had more than 30 films with it.

CZJ lens are good, yes. but kiev 88 definitely sucks.