The death of the Pictorial in Post Modern Photography?

"So anyways, I politely disagree with the notion that postmodernism has totally driven out pictorialism. Personally, I've never known the two to be mutually exclusive."

I hope you don't think that Justine was bringing pictorialism back into photography. There happened to be landscapes in her images but pictorialism wasn't a major theme.

Photographers didn't kill the classic pictorial essay.

Editors did.

Tim's first post decries the idea that there is little room for visual beauty in "postmodern photography." (visual beauty is not exactly synoymous with pictorialism, however)

Thomas wrote: "I hope you don't think that Justine was bringing pictorialism back into photography. There happened to be landscapes in her images but pictorialism wasn't a major theme."

I don't think that Kurland is attempting to bring back anything, and I wasn't saying that landcapes = pictorialism. Kurland's themes run more along the lines of adolescence, "girl-tribes," paradise, and utopia, but pictorialism is still a major ASPECT of her work. Others and myself have mentioned, there are many, many successful "idea-driven" photographers whose work is not devoid of aesthetic content...In fact, these artists are often the most successful in terms of exposure. Postmodern photography isn't always at odds with aesthetics.

And like I said before, I just happened to mention Kurland because: 1. Her photographs consciously reference 19th century landscape PAINTINGS, Julia Margaret Cameron, and fairy-tale illustrations. Which sounds pretty pictorial to me.

2. She attended a program that is well connected with museums, galleries, and art critics--the venues often viewed as embracing "postmodern photography" (if you happen to like labels).

3. I simply enjoy her work.

-Matt

Firstly, many thanks to everyone who has kindly contributed to this discussion, I've got plenty of food for thought and some excellent comments that I can weave into my dissertation.

Apologies for the slightly ambiguous terms - by pictorial I was refering to the 'Picturesque' - essentially landscape photography, but ultimately any style which places emphasis on the aesthetic. It does appear in the culture of post modernism that the picturesque is seen as cliched. Artists using photography as their medium of choice often seem to have little concern for the aesthetic qualities of the medium. I see the true 'art of photography' as being the 'art of drawing with light'. Maybe I'm too much of a purist - but I'd like to see more emphasis in the gallery space on creative and technical skill, using the medium to create an aesthetic experience. This type of photography does seem to have become marginalised and is rarely seen as art by the majority of critics and gallery owners.

Anyway, that's just an opinion. Thanks again for your views, please feel free to add any further comments!

Best Regards

<i>This type of photography does seem to have become marginalised . . .</i><P>

You only need to go as far as the calendar section of your local bookstore, a poster shop, a postcard rack, decorator's gallery, or amateur photographers' photo albums to be inundated by this type of photography. It is marginalised only in the sense that cheeseburgers and fries are marginalised.<P>

We are surrounded by venues for the photographic equivalent of comfort food. Is it really neccessary that galleries and museums also be dumbed down to the level that the work there inspires nothing more than "oooohs" and "aaaahs?"

It's not that Pictorialism is dead, outdated or meaningless in relation to PM imagery--it's

that culturally we are swimming in an ocean of pictorialism and the picturesque that is so

vast it has become meaningless. The only way for the picturesque to make itself relevant

in an aesthetic discourse is for it to address the issues of the picturesque itself, in which

case it's not what you are looking for.

Capitalism has refined this by targeting the market so that the most common denominator

is that which is the most profitable--beauty without complexity. And so we have a sea of

images that reflect this. To address that you would have to go into Marxist theory about

production and consumption. Again, not just the picturesque.

You can't have the picturesque any more in a serious sense without discourse about it's

relevance, unless of course you want just about any calendar, magazine and coffee table

book ever made. In that case it's everywhere.

"It's not that Pictorialism is dead, outdated or meaningless in relation to PM imagery--it's that culturally we are swimming in an ocean of pictorialism and the picturesque that is so vast it has become meaningless."

And if you haven't been educated to the point of the validity of your above comment, it becomes a case of being drown by this ocean of images and not quite knowing why as in; "I know how to photograph." "What's the deal here."

I guess it's like being in an overcrowed swimming pool where the wee people get stepped on and drown by the rest of the image makers.

Photography is better at Truth than Art, but photographers are not commonly alert to either...mostly they love tools.

Give us a break: Most photo galleries are plastered thickly with "imagery that simply aims to please."

Salgado and (for example) dozens of GREAT Arabic photojournalists would never accept the "confronting" label. They simply make photographs of things that seem important.

It's noble to show things honestly with photography, whereas "confronting" is only an adolescent pose.

You are getting an education in the visual arts, an often pointless and

frustrating exercise when you just want to communicate retinally without too

much thought regarding meaning. Questions regarding the minutiae of

meaning - often the meaning of words, can cause confusion. At higher levels

of education one learns to pick out the important elements and concentrate on

those issues, eventually losing sight of the other aspects of the subject. Post

Modern Photography, Pictorial Images, Aesthetic Beauty are the key words in

your question, meaningless outside of academia. Historically one can

examine the work of 60's conceptualists Hilliard, Kosuth, Douglas Huebler

and then later in the 70's- the Bechers, Sherrie Levine, Cindy Sherman and

through to Gursky, Tillmans and more recently Idris Khan and Mohini

Chandra, to get a flavour of what Post Modern Photography might actually be.

(Of course these are my small selection - other boffins will have other

examples). Death of scenarios in the arts are often over statements from men

with too much semen - often merely indicating change. In painting there are

many instances - Malevich's Black Square is referring to a new history in

Russia after the revolution - Rodchenko paints his tricolour monochromes

proclaiming the end of painting and concentrates on his (in my opinion)

excellent photography, Joseph Kosuth gets wrapped up in Wittgenstein's

Tractatus even though Wittgenstein had already posited that the human

condition is as important as logic. Photography is experiencing a flux as all

visual art does - I'm personally waiting for the death of the watercolour. There

will always be 'pictorial images' in photography, but depending on the

zeitgeist, these 'images' will not be found in contemporary art or photography

magazines - or contemporary art and photography galleries. Aesthetic beauty

will always be a problem for analysis but (if it is beauty) not for the eye. Check

out Aristotle or read - 'From An Aesthetic Point Of View' - editor Peter

Osbourne, this might also cover some of the general problems you are

concerned with.

Alternatively just be true to what you want to create and forget about

conceptualising it.

I almost forgot.

Here is an example of my work. The print measures 1m x 1m and is mounted

on aluminium. I had no involvement in the making and hanging other than

sending an email with some photoshop instructions. The file was created by a

technician (Sharon) at Spectrum Photographic in Brighton. The instructions

were followed and the print was made using the light-jet process. The file was

not saved. The title of the photograph is Academic. Post Modernist

Photography nearly taken to the extreme (I could have just conceived it) -

proclaiming the Death Of Photography - denying Aesthetic Beauty. Aaaah

bullshit.<div></div>