Why can we not all get along and learn something?

jayme,,

i couldnt agree with you more..i dont see why people cant be nice to each other,,,reginald

Oh Floris, I did not imply you were stupid, I merely misunderstood your post. I may be nice and "sweet" as you put it but I am not as vulnerable & sensative about comments as you might think. However, there are those that are. This posting is merely to make a point.

 

I, being a nurse, have learned through experience, to have a very tough skin. Try getting yelled & screamed at over the phone at 2am by some grouchy doctor, who thinks they are superior to the lowly nurse. I learned very quickly to put them in their place! LOL. I was an ICU nurse for years. I am not as vulnerable as you might think. Actual I'm as tough as nails and extremely intelligent. LOL Of course, my opinion.

 

So excuse me for misunderstanding. Thanks for straightening me out!

Thank you Reginald.

 

Carl- What you said that sounds pretty deep. Could you explain a little more in detail what you are talking about? Your post intrigues me.

Over the years I've thought of every opening my question would give someone to critisize instead of answer helpfully. Before I ask I always go through a search. In the early years of Photo.net there seemed to be a more helpfull, civil tone. Not now.

Jayme, did i say you are sweet? I'm speaking of vulnerability of 'us': photoposters. Not talking about nurses or intelligence. Guess you have too much to read... Good luck.

Floris- the referrence to me as a "nurse" was just to give you a frame of referrence about me. Not as a direct response to intelligent or vulnerable or sweetness. Just frame of referrence, that's all. So you're saying I'm not "sweet"? LOL Just kidding!

Gordon- why no images? Just curious. (No implying anything).

Gordon- meant "not implying anything" Bad typing.

My only self-imposed rule is to not say anything online that I wouldn't say to a person's face.

Rashid- Thank you for explaining. You do really well with English. I wish I could speak a foreign language as well. Arrogant Americans

(of which I am one, by default) think everyone should speak English. Therefore, as a child, I was not offered much with exception of Latin, of which I foolishly took 4 years. As an adult, I feel I am handicapped because of my lacking.

 

Your response was wonderful. And I really am not that sweet! Remember, I'm a nurse! LOL I have been kindly referred to as "The Stephen Segal of Nursing" LOL I hope you know who Stephen Segal is!

 

Keith- an admirable rule, mine too. Wish everyone felt the same.

I don't really have much to say, other than I agree with most of your posts. Of course, you must realise that what you are asking really has no definite answer/solution. It's a problem based on morals, ethics, even religion, and as such there are no winners in this argument. We will never all get along because we're all different (thank God!).<p>

 

<i>"Some people are great photographers, and some people are not. This is life."</i> -- Jayme Hall.<p>

 

Similarly, some people are nice, and some people are not. Some people are willing to write meaningful, valid critiques/comments, some people couldn't care less. (etc.)<p>

 

No amount of arguing, debating, or even lengthy, comprehensive solutions like your own will ever be able to solve this inherent flaw found in all of us - unfortunately, that <i>is</i> life imo.<p>

 

Communicating via the Internet certainly doesn't help the matter either. Sometimes comments are written with all the best intentions, but these comments can easily be misinterpreted when viewed over the net because there is an obvious lack of the social lucidity that's found in the <I>real</i> world, and through person to person interactions (gestures, emphasis, posture, etc.) points are made much clearer - these communication "tools" are lost or significantly impaired when communicating via the web.<p>

 

All you can offer is your personal best, and hope that it will influence, in a positive way, those around you.

Just a few observations and my own feelings about critiques in general. The only photographs (I think!) that I've ever posted to PN were mostly in the W/NW forum or in reply to a question. Why? I am *by far* my own worst critic and seldom like any shot that I take! ;-) I always think about what I could or should have done better and am really hard on myself. So having others "pile on", I feel, won't do me much good, personally. Besides, in most cases, the picture cannot be photographed again - it was a fleeting moment. If someone suggests improvements, chances are I've already thought of it and couldn't re-shoot the picture anyway. As far as my critiquing others, I just don't do it. (I have added some comments once or twice, but never about the quality of the photograph - usually something about the subject that I felt the photographer might find of interest) Having dabbled in music for years, I know that some of the most voracious music critics are wanna-be musicians who failed at it and vent their spleens on other musicians who've done better. I feel that some of the people who post photos to be critiqued here simply want to be complimented. Sometimes they deserve to be, sometimes not. I know that there are some who honestly want to improve their photography by getting advice - I understand that and that's fine. But I think there are more than a few who just might have an ulterior motive - perhaps one of vanity. I've seen some unbelievably good photographs here and I'm quite sure that the photographers who took those shots don't need me to tell them they're good. Conversely, there have been some not-so-good ones and I'd be even less inclined to comment on those, perhaps because of the old "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" rule. In short, I think some people take all this a little too seriously. If you're a musician, some people will love your music and some will hate it. Ditto for your photographs if you're a photographer, or your poems if you're a poet. Take a sad song and make it better and if you don't like your *own* photographs, try to improve them as best you can. Be nice to others and relax! No one ever got cancer from taking a bad picture - I'd sure be long dead by now if that was true. ;-)

Jayme - one comment from me (and I do agree with all of what you've said on this thread):

 

"Can of worms"...

Ya Jayme i am pretty angry over this. True. Nobody is gonna accuse me in public like this and during the last month i have dealt with endless hassle from this group. Abuse has been notified at least 5 times...they say nothing period. Not even a mail back. These guys all group together and act so innocent then stab ya anyway they can.

 

Look up there at my reaching out, took 3 hours to write. He didn't hear a word. I even used paragraphs. A post started on cut and paste comments directly referring to him..by the end they made such a mess with their "organized confusion tactics" i think the mods just junked it. The mods are constantly coming in and clearing out "comments gone wild" in their pics....once the stuff is gone they change the story around. Like he comes here and accuses me of cutting up his images but offers no proof..its outragious. I really want the mods to post that deleted stuff i really do.

 

They have called me "insane"..a drunk..endless rants...all cause i called 1 lousy pic a lousy pic (imo)..they have not brought up even a single point WHY my opinion is off the wall..just band together and call me a "bad person".

 

This started with their bullying tactics on that image. Within half hour after i posted that critque 3 of my new pics recieved a 1/1 by 4 people EACH...4 people each. That was Rashids image. Abuse can verify it.

 

I wasn't rude..nothing personal whatsoever..the image was mate rated. Abuse can verify that also. Now the last month he's working into every post and as u can see here...you Jayme are trying to play mom and calm the waters...i reached out...he don't care he comes right back in with his pleading innocence. Nothing i said up there even fizzes...omg...

 

Actually u know..i made that critque and made a trip back 2 hrs later just to see are we gonna discuss here. There was like 10 posts of raving lunitics callin me everything under the sun....i split.

 

I want abuse to produce that critque please and post it here...lets just see if he has any leg to stand on...cause he don't.

When i posted that critque all this whining is about...they reported me to abuse. Abuse obviously came and read the thing...found it acceptable and left it on the image...does that say it all?

-And the party who is the topic also visited other folks' sites and posted ultimatums....I don't see where all of you get the time for these dissertations. I would just drop it and go on to another image to enjoy photography..

Jayme...where do you keep your cape? You not only contribute wonderful images to this group, but you bring so much more. I learned a long time ago that there are those who do and those who talk and damn few who can do both well. You are one of them. This is a wide open forum with a wide range of opinions matched by a wide range of tastes. I'm more than happy to give high marks to a well-conceived and executed image that I don't like...simply because it was well-conceived and well-executed. I don't expect everyone to share my tastes. However, it does take a certain level of maturity to be objective and not to take things personally or react with anger when the less than objective react to your own work.

 

I have been taking pictures for over 50 years. For about a decade of that I did it for a living. I have met and worked with some great photographers. Part of what made them great is that you could look at one of their images and know immediately it was theirs. Not that it was spectacular, but that it was unique enough that it was easily identified with the mind of the creator.

 

Photo.net provides a wonderful service. I have seen great work here and wonderful creative minds at work. I will not let the petty comments spoil it.

I've noticed that you have mentioned me three times in this post and I have no dog in this fight. I'm curious as to why you are so interested in who and how I rate. Who are you to question what I do? I'm a Paying member enjoying the fine works of many here.

 

Am I not allowed to rate and comment without having to have my actions tracked by you? Politely asking that from this point forth, you leave me out of the issues you seem to have here.

 

Jayme, sorry to interupt the party, just felt obliged to clear that up. Also, nice to read such well articulated and written thoughts.

 

now we return you to your previously scheduled program...

Hi Jayme Hall,<p>

 

If you want helpfull critics or detailed technical help just ask here in the forum or email to people. I do so and get much more answers than through the request a critique process. And always nicely written.<p>

 

As for being nice? I am it is all the others who are not! lol

Jayme, people on here or anywhere else, who are all wound up in their own self importance and superiority that they consider others as being ignorant or stupid,are not worthy of further comment...Jim

Many good answers above from many different personalities. IMHO, PN is a representation of the entire photographic world, so obviously the differences in etiquette can be expected. However, the content, the critiques can always be taken at the face value. If we can only take the critique portion in, (like you said separating yourself from the images,) then we're good to go. Too light, cropping preference, increase saturation, etc. can be easily understood. But if one can't stay objective, then one may get entangled with the etiquette differences, and completely goes off course. I'd say, stay objective and guage one's own tactfulness and level of sensitivity. Remember though that if one's going to shell them out, you better be ready take them as well. Perhaps we all can be more constructive? Great learning tool this place is, both photographically and behaviorially. ^_^

No! Photo.net is a representation of the part of the photographic world who spend their lives sitting on the computer and chatting on the internet. Many photographers have lives and spend their time photographing and their attitudes and views are quite different from photo.netters.

Sorry all, I had to do some Christmas shopping.......the malls were really crowded! A Madhouse for sure.

 

Meanwhile, back at the discussion:

 

Kim- you are right, but sometimes, there's just something that rumbles around from deep down within, and refuses to be quelled until I put it into words. So, I then must spew it forth and let it fall onto paper or in this case a forum. The rumble is quelled.

 

Matt- Your statement is so good it needs repeating. There is a lot of validity to this statemtment. And may I add, language barriers & differences are a major source of misunderstandings.

 

"Communicating via the Internet certainly doesn't help the matter either. Sometimes comments are written with all the best intentions, but these comments can easily be misinterpreted when viewed over the net because there is an obvious lack of the social lucidity that's found in the real world, and through person to person interactions (gestures, emphasis, posture, etc.) points are made much clearer - these communication "tools" are lost or significantly impaired when communicating via the web."

 

 

Beau- I can certainly understand your statements. I, too, am my own worst critic. As I read your words, I was reminded of a saying & thought, that my nursing team in the ICU would laugh and sigh about each day at the end of our shift. When always asked by the next shift, if it was a good day, we would respond with our motto, (if appropriate), "It was a good day, no one died". We always felt that at the end of the shift, no matter what had happened, no matter how crazy it got, or insane the situation, it was a good day if no one died. It has been a source of comfort, believe it or not, during many times of stress through out my life. It has given me the perspective I have needed to take a step back and ask myself this question. "Has anyone or is anyone going to die from this conflict? If the answer is "No", then I relax a bit, breath a sigh of relief and realize there's nothing broken that can't be fixed as long as no one has died. Thanks for reminding of this today.

 

John Ellingson - Thank you for the lovely comments. So graciously put, especially considering, (my sencere & honest opinion) it comes from one of the most under appreciated and underrated artists/photographers on PN. Of course, you know I love your work! I hope that counts for something! LOL

 

Chris Grant- Glad you stopped by, appreciate your input.

 

Mondiani - Thanks for the tip! I will keep it in mind. And I agree, you are nice! LOL

 

Jim Kerr - I do agree to a point, but as Matt mentioned above with regard to speach nuances and language misunderstandings, I find I often need more information before I get angry and write someone off. I want all the information before I throw in the towel and give up on anyone. I must admit, it is not the easy thing to do, but......it is self-fulfilling for me as a person. Call me crazy. I must admit that in my 50 years of life, I can count on one hand the people I have actually met & given up on and have written off as unredeamable. Even those, I must admit taught me something. So I don't consider the experience a waste of my time. May I add too that some of the most interesting people I have met, have been people that I started out in conflict with. Life has a funy way of teaching one lessons, as someone mentioned above, conflict is not always bad. especially if it ends in a resolution where both parties benefitted by the battle.

 

ILKKA- I think that was a pretty brief and onesided statement. I think you should have prefaced it with " I think, or it's my belief". I happen to believe that it may be just your belief. It may or may not be a fact. Possibly an independent study needs to be done to determine if it is a fact. LOL. Sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but one has to be really explicit when making statements without hard facts to back them up. It's OK to have opinions as long as you don't state them as facts.

 

Dear Wilson- You have said concisely and beautifully what it took me many more words to say. You also never cease to amaze. I think if you lived a lot closer to me, we would be great friends.

 

John F.- (I'm not even going to try to spell that) Thanks for stopping by, you have also participated in quite a few discusions with me. And I have learned from you, a lot. I also think that if we lived closer, we might also be friends. Not because of our like minds and thoughts, but because of our complimentary nature. I compliment you and you me. We have such different views, that we would each learn from each other.

 

Now for Rashid & Paul- The real reason I started this forum thread. Each of you found your way here. I wish Zafar had entered into the discussion. But I have heard from him in e-mails, so I know he is watching.

 

Paul- you know I respect your skills and am amazed by your abilities, however, I feel you have this really stubborn streak. We do believe you. I think you feel persecuted. Stop that! You do not need to defend, you have explained. That's all. Now you need to listen. Rashid has said he was sorry for the misunderstandings and so have you said the same. It's time to forgive and stop the paranoid feelings, you do have people on your side. I for one, John, Chris and I am sure many. many others. It's not about sides, it's about learning and friendship and honesty. I know I sound like everyone's Mom, and as well I should, I am a Mom. It's hard to get out of the habit once you start. LOL (let's not forget Knicki's humor).

 

Now I've started my own rant- Maybe this is what this world needs, a few more Mom's calling the shots, instead of spoiled little boys and girls. Mom's of the world unite! (actually not a bad idea).

 

Ok, back to the point:

 

Listening, when one is angry, is so very hard to do. That's why a cooling off period is needed. Step back, take a big breath, and realize, no one died, so it's a good day! Now, not listening is 90% of most problems, in my opinion. Another 8% is just plain misunderstanding what was said. The last 2% I reserve for just plain lousy humans with bad intent. Thus 98% of all problems, according to Jayme, could be solved with accurate communication and loving understanding. We'd have to nuke the other 2% though. LOL (just kidding and a little humor). We love you Paul!

 

Rashid - I admire you for your honesty and the shear amount of time you have taken to clear up this misunderstanding. Language barriers are difficult. You have made a valiant attempt to bridge that gap. You have proven yourself a kind and caring human being, someone I would like to know better. Especially, considering that you reside in an area of the world which at this moment is in great conflict. I am amazed at your willingness to even listen to and then hear our statements. Let alone, see the bigger picture. Amazing! Truly!

 

So in the end, let us all try to clear up misunderstandings first, before jumping to conclusions. Let us all understand, we are all different and see things differently. And let us all agree to disagree without nuking each other's images and feelings (and our worlds).

 

Thanks to all of you, we may have just averted WWIII.

 

Calling all Moms!!!!!

 

 

Jayme some of your message this way is already redundant. Am preparing my document for posting, it explains fully this new expansive universe and its implications for pnet ers. Solves all world probs and is completly biodegradable...So is takin awhile.

 

Well said last line ya Wilson.

Isn't the Internet a funny medium? I posted a perfectly innocent response to a question just last night and several of the contributors have misinterpreted my response as being nasty or rude. The image I posted with my response was only intended as an example of the technique being discussed but apparently was mistaken as an attack on the author of the thread. It just goes to show that perhaps we should all be more careful when responding.<p>Anyway, judge for yourselves, the thread can be seen<a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00AKwW"> here</a>