And another one bites the dust - Ilford.

Ilford announced 18 months ago they were stopping R&D into monochrome film products in order to concentrate on their inkjet printer accessories business.

 

The reason for Ilford's sudden collapse may well be an ill-timed concentration in the highly competitive printer market rather than because of problems with film sales.

 

Just looking at this from a business perspective. There's no doubt the film market is shrinking, of course.

 

I have about 5 Ilford P&P mailer envelopes in stock which I suppose are worth nothing now.

This is an ill-timed move. With Agfa supposedly pulling out and Kodak shrinking, Ilford should not panic but hang on until the smoke clears. If Ilford does go down the pan it will be a catastrophe. There is a viable business there and I can only hope it will find a buyer.

Agfa aren't pulling out -- they've sold their film division to a management buyout group. That shows the managers of the film division believe it is a viable business in itself.

Right, Richard. Agfa certainly won't keep its pro film division afloat for purely sentimental reasons. Apart from being a relatively small part of a large company, AgfaFilm still appears to have some life in it, though I expect some product lines(e.g., C-41 materials?)will vanish. Ilford's situation is truly grave.

Having the Agfa film-division spun off might actually be good: they can concentrate on film, whereas Agfa's corporate priorities have for some time been somewhere else.

 

Ilford is another matter...might turn out well, or some investment company might hold it for a few years and make short work of it. It just might get difficult to get good, 100 speed film in all sizes. Kodak makes nothing in this speed that could be my day-to-day film.

<I>All you photographer that I have changed from working hard in the darkroom to create a hand crafted print...to now sitting your butt down in a chair and moving a little mouse around</i><P>As somebody who has taught dozens of darkroom techs how to hand process everything from 4x5 Plus-X to making Cibachromes from Kodachrome 25, along with tried to help as many people in the B/W forum as possible, comments from dips like this along with complete nobodys like Gary Woodard make me <b>glad</b> film is dying. <P>Ilford's B/W products have always been among my favorite films allowing an alternative to the hard edge of Tri-X and Plus-X. Agfa materials like Portiga and APX-25 were among my mainstays when I first got into darkroom work.<P>Still, I'm not shedding any tears, because even though I produced a lot of nice work with these materials, I've moved on to better things and better technology with better controls. The greater the distance I get from inbreds like this who constantly rant they are superior artists because they know how to rock prints in smelly chemical trays, the better the work I produce. <P>I really do feel sympathy for the legitmate artists who rely on these unique materials, and who were blind sided by the Ilford announcement like all of us were. I expected the loss of film producers to be on an increasing curve but not like this. Still, if accelerated decline of film helps exterminate the jerks and a-holes who cannot shut the F-up about digital for 5-seconds simply because they have nothing else to blame for their lack of vision, then let it die. The art form will in the long run be better off if we aren't constantly dictated and lectured to what is/isn't art by those who've made film some stupid religion.

To Scott.

 

Amen, brother!

I always thought that art was about freedom of expression, freedom to work in the medium of one's choice. I have nothing against digital per se and might someday have chosen it on my own. What upsets me is having the choice being made for me, having to "go digital" not on my terms or timetable, just because so many others are doing so that the film companies have to throw in the towel. I think you'd get the same reaction from sculptors if the companies producing clay were all shutting down because everyone was switching to some synthetic polymer that looks like clay. To some artists the medium, and even the tools, are inextricably connected to the creative process.

One reason Ilford are in trouble is because the persistently overvalued UK pound makes it very hard for them to export successfully.

Just out of curiosity, I went to B&H Photo's web site and did a search for 35mm B&W film, excluding Agfa, Fuji, Ilford and Kodak. This is what's available: Paterson Acupan 200; Forte Fortepan 100; Forte Fortepan 200; Forte Fortepan 400; Bergger BRF-200.

 

Anyone care to comment on these films, in terms of how they compare to similar products from the Big Four companies mentioned above?

Interested in a 100 sheet box of 4x5 Super XX? I stocked up years ago when that was discontinued... No, I couldn't sell it - the antique factor alone would keep me from doing that.

 

Even if Ilford does go under, B&W film will still be available. You may have to do some tests with other manufacturer's film and several developer combinations, but, if you have a vision that just has to be printed in B&W in a wet darkroom - you'll find a way.

 

I do like FP-4 and the Delta films, but, I can make B&W prints without using Ilford materials.

I have sympathy for people whose favorite products of any kind are discontinued, but people like Ryan McIntosh above make it damned difficult not to lash back. I suppose the first word that comes to mind when I read posts like Ryan's is <i>crybaby</i>. It's too bad Ryan is losing something he likes, but to throw a tantrum like that just demonstrates his lack of maturity. If my kids ever acted like that, I'd rain brimstone and hellfire down on them.<p><p>Is Ryan also angry at those who abandoned the wet plate process? Hey, we all know that only the "real" photographers mix their own emulsions on the spot...the rest (those who purchase those pre-mixed emulsions on film) are just coasting along.<p><p>Get off it. Photography is about producing images. The evolution in technology is a fact of life. As I tell my students, who are all preparing to graduate from college and enter the work force: if you can't change it (and you aren't going to change this), roll with the punches or get your nose broken.

There is currently 127 35mm films available through B&H and J&C And nothing has been said about Ilford stopping production, Businesses change all of the time. Look at Leica Konica?Minolta. Stop thinking the sky is falling. And just go out and take some photos.

 

Gee's

Time to get that dedicated film freezer...

Thanks Mark

Scott, amen brother.

Chins up you pathetic bunch of blithering fools ;-) Films best days lay ahead. Just as the acoustic guitar market experienced a renaissance, one where high quality boutique guitar manufactures modeled their guitars after 50 and 60 year old original Martin guitar designs, the B&W film industry will also see small boutique film designers/manufactures come to market with emulsions that will make you cry. Sure, a single roll will be 10 bucks, but the quality and tonality will be beyond those made today. Dont save film, save your money, so youll be able to afford these wonder films. Of course theres an outside chance I could be wrong

Well Ilford and Agfa are cutting down on business! So is that the doom for film, and especially b/w photography? I guess not, because it?s all a question of supply and demand!

 

As long as there is a demand for a good, film etc. then there will be a supply! Surely it?s not given that the supply will be XP2 Super or APX 100, but some sort of film will be made! I do b/w my self, and it?s quite obviously that I?m not the only one! So some kind of demand obviously exists, therefore film won?t die tomorrow.

 

Then the question, if film isn?t dying, why is Agfa and Ilford biting the dust? Well if demand goes down, prices must go up to compensate, if the final inflow of money shall stay the same (in a neoclassic economic world, so I?m talking about ideals here). Result, to maintain their market positions, the two companies has to turn op their prices. For an example if half of the demand goes away, then prices have to be doubled! That has not happened! Result is that the firms have to restructure to adjust to the new supply/demand curves! Therefore it?s a natural thing that the big firms are restructuring and some are closing down. It?s just a sign of a market adjusting to the new demand situation.

 

My point is, that the stories about Agfa and Ilford is not the a sign abut the death of film, its just a sign of a marked adjusting to a new demand situation, and some demand still exists, so don?t cry about the death of film yet!

So, after reading all of the posts about the troubles at Ilford, there is something that I simply cannot understand; why the venom from those who have made the switch to digital? I fail to see why seasoned photographers with many years of experience in both media would be glad to hear that B&W was in trouble. As a photographer, be you professional who earns his living with the image or an amateur who dabbles for his own pleasure, wouldn't you be wont to find comfort in the notion that there is more than one medium in which to work?

 

What's going on here?

Doesnt the timing seem odd to you guys? Same time as Agfa. I'm guessing one group will end up owning both. Some kind of merger?

Look, somebody's going to offer b&w film. One solution is that they raise the price. Would you stop buying? No. Price elasticity of demand. And I for one think Kodak's move to the new film plant means we can expect tri-x for some time yet. They've made it more cost efficient. To be honest, how many different films and chemicals do you really need? If all had to live with only a choice between low, medium, and high speed films we could deal with it. And film developers? Come on! 1 fine grain, 1 general, and one for pushing. That's all you need. Paper? One RC and one fiber. Both VC and one surface only. You'd survive. Probably make you a better photographer because you'd stop experimenting with all the combinations!

There was a comment in one article that there was a rumour Ilford was trying to buy out Agfa's film division, but now that it's been sold they can no longer do that. They said there may or may not be a German buyer for Ilford. It's now just a wait and see situation.

Film offerings could be 'loss leader' products for some firms in order to complete their product lines. Owning the film market and controlling these customers with the aim of converting some into future digital product buyers being the ultimate goal.

I have no particular attachment to a given emulsion to the exclusion of others, but

worry about how far it will go. What if there is no monochrome neg film in a few year

(a possability I never really considered until now)? Will other products, weather digital

or c-41, appear with the contast control, tonal range and latitude of bw? If so, life

will go on. If not, we will have lost something far more important than the fun and

personality of the classic workflow.

hm, we talk a lot about b/w film here, but if you look at their portfolio, it's more printing and professional colour material. With all these Galeria printing paper, a lot of r&d-costs must have been invested in this field. Talking about digital, Ilford will have lost far less on the film sales side than e.g. Kodak or Fuji. In the mass market, it's mostly colour neg shooters that switch to digital, I don't see as many b/w-freaks switch. In my opinion, and looking at their recent history, not film went wrong because of digital, but digital itself killed the cat. I don't think we will see the name ilford disappear on the film side, it's too good a brand to let it slip, there are enough good companies out there that will know how to make money once they can concentrate on this niche. So, chear up, nothing's lost yet ! (sorry, got to leave now, my new dedicated film freezer is being delivered.. ;-)

"I'm not dead yet!"

 

I'd say that Ilford's B/W reputation will make for a pretty interesting bidding war should they sink below the horizon. I could see either Kodak or (as someone else mentioned) Fuji being interested. They could very well sell off some part(s) of the business and retain others. Either way, this news is not likely the death knell of Ilford's film business.