cheaper alternatives to hasselblad?

I am an intermediate photography student and I've recently started moving away from

35mm to medium format... which is really exciting to me. I figure it's time to buy my own

medium format camera and am of course drooling over all those beautiful, older (and

quite expensive) hasselblads out there on ebay and the like. but no matter how

passionate i am about my work, money makes the world go 'round and there's no way i

will be purchasing a blad any time soon (unless some miracle occurrs or some angel out

there decides to sell theirs to me super cheap). so where else is a good place to turn

that's cheaper, but not "cheap" (i.e. poorly made). twin lense reflex doesn't appeal -- what

about this "kiev" faux hasselblad? any suggestions are more than welcome... and/or

generous donations! *warm smile* -- thank you all so much.

Becca,

what is your budget? do you have a format preference such as 6x4.5 or 6x7 or 6x6? set your budget and then start looking. bronica's can be had for a decent price as well as older pentax 6x7's.

 

good luck....david

There is a lot to choose. What type of photography do you do? What's your budget? Format preference -- 645, 6x6, 6x7, other? Any special requirements besides not wanting a TLR?

 

To ramble a bit...

 

While I am still a Kiev enthusiast, I'll be one of the first to tell you that they are not for everyone. Aside from wanting to take pictures, you have to like clunky equipment with quirky, individual "personalities". You should be prepared to put up with losing a few to a flaky camera that may or may not work when you pick it up. I've had good results so far, but I have lost a number of important shots because of the camera. What really keeps me going with the Kiev is the wide array of very good lenses that I have been able to afford for it.

 

Anyway, beside Kievs...

 

Hasselblad prices have come down a lot recently. With patience you may be able to put together a nice basic 500CM kit with 50mm, 80mm, and 150mm lenses for around $1600.

 

Otherwise, I'd suggest a look at the Bronica SQ series if you like 6x6. Prices on these cameras and lenses have dropped a LOT compared to just a couple of years ago. While they lack the elegance of Hasselblads, they work very well and make great photographs. They also have the same modular benefits of Hasselblads and you can grow your system as finances allow.

 

Just a little food for thought.

Mamiya?

Mamiya TLR is fantastic but the RB67 is closer in function to the Blad, with interchangeable backs and SLR viewing. Get a good one cheap and it will make you happy for a long time.

Have you been through the Monaghan MF site? http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/cameras.html

 

If you're sure you need an SLR, you must need interchangeable lenses, so budget for this, too. There seem to be a lot of Mamiya lenses out there, FWIW.

The most expensive part is the film and processing. Also consider resale value. You may be able to buy and see used on eBay without much of a loss.

Another plug for Monaghan's site. Your needs must be more qualified. Like

others have said, factors include budget, format, type (i.e. rangefinder, slr),

expandability.

 

Good, expandable systems that are relatively easy to find include Kowa, Koni-

Omega, Mamiya 645 and 6x7, and Bronica.

 

You don't seem to want one, but Rolleiflex TLRs are my absolute favourite

cameras. You can get a tlr for less than $100, which will probably suit most of

your needs just fine.

The previous posters all tell the truth. I bought Hasselblads on ebay & now my Bronica ETRSi stuff is for sale. Great images, but Hblads are nicely made.

You can find Hasselblads for surprisingly little if you want something to use and not to look at. I picked up a 500C with a black T* lens and a 12 on magazine for £350 last year - works well but looks a little rough. I just missed a 50mm lens for £299; he who hesitates is lost!

 

If you want to go cheaper, the Pentacon Six is a surprisingly good camera for very little money (around £150 in the UK). As well as the the really effective Zeiss Jenna lenses, a lot of the Russian lenses also fit, including the seriously exotic Arsat 30mm fisheye. The Pentacon Six rightly has a reputation for a problematic film transport system but if you find one that's working and treat it with respect it will work well. The big secret is never to force the lever wind or let it flip back.

 

The Kowa Six is a nice camera which often goes cheaply (£150 or so in the UK) but it is not so well built as its younger brother the Kowa 66. The lenses are often cheap and very good. The real gem, if you can find one, is the Bronica S2a which had superb Nikkor lenses and is a fairly tough old beast. Magazines and lenses come up on eBay surprisingly often.

 

Cameras to stay away from are the Reflex Korelle and its copies. No wind angle lenses and the mechanics, never stellar, are now often worn out.

Becca, before you dismiss the idea, check the used camera/kit prices for Hasselblad

at KEH.com - they have a lot of surprisingly inexpensive solutions.

 

Before you spend your money on any system, consider what it will subsequently cost

to either 'upgrade' or change systems. Buying a Kiev might seem a bargain now, but if

you eventually decide you want something else, how much value will be retained? It's

always a better deal to build a system than to buy-sell-buy different. I've done that

quite a few times, but because i've changed how/what i wanted to shoot. But, always

with gear that kept its value, so i didn't lose much (less than it would have cost to

rent).... Also, i would always recommend starting slow in MF - one lens. Maybe you're

thinking the 'blad thing will be out of your budget because you're planning to match

your 35mm lens range? A Hassy with 80mm lens is remarkably versatile. Many

amazing photographers have never worked with more than that.

 

What do you shoot? That's probably as important a question as any other at this

point.

Im also a photography student and have entered the world of Medium format and

love it as i shoot mainly e-6 its great to look at on a light box when its 6x7.IMHO the

cheapest place is from rental companys who have gone bust or are investing in new

equiptment, you will have missed it now but sanctury/fox studios just shut down (this

is in london) and i was talking to the manager while we were looking into buying the

last of there equiptment (i work for a rival advertising studio) and the prices that they

were selling at were incredible. a blad is probebly the most expensive way to get into

MF because of the extra lense cost, i shoot a RZ pro 2 and couldnt ask for more and

althought the lenses are expensive they are still cheaper than blads. i would look into

mamiyas 645/67, the RB is so cheap right now and i owned one it was great if you

dont mind the seperate film advance lever and you get the "ideal format" with no

croping for 10x8 printing. but a 6x6 will be the better camera if you dont want the

huge weight of the RB. A mamiya 645 can go for less than £200 on ebay if you are

lucky and dont mind waiting for the right deal. with your situation its going to be a

compromise try to borrow all of the cameras you are intrested in and it will be a big

help to choosing

I've worked my way through 3 Pentacon 6 bodies over a number of years, and I just can't recommend them for reliability, I'm afraid. The same goes for the Kiev60, except that the Kiev is a poorly designed piece of garbage to start with. (IMHO)

 

The Kiev80 or 88 ('blad 1000F copy) may be a different matter, but I somehow very much doubt it.

 

I now use a Mamiya 645 outfit, which is sheer luxury compared to the Pentacon6, and space-age technology compared to the stone-age Kiev60.

 

Mamiya 645 bodies and lenses are a steal at current secondhand prices, and unless you're going to be doing 6 sheet poster work, the optical quality of the Mamiya-Sekor C lenses is plenty good enough for pro work. The 645 format is also a lot more economical on film - unless you're a dedicated square printer.

 

That's my two-pennyworth.

Hi Becca,

 

I have an upgraded Kiev 88cm from KievCamera and it's actually pretty decent; the only problems I've had are a light leak in one of the two backs, and a weird shutter banding problem at 1/60th (both problems promptly fixed by Mike at KievCamera). But I also have a Mamiya RB67 Pro-S, and that's what I'd recommend to you. At KEH, you can get a body, WL, lens, and back for about $500 if you buy their "bargain" material, which is actually quite good mechanically and cosmetically as well, and about the same price as a new 88cm. The RB's reliability is legendary, the lenses are sharp, build quality is just as good as a 'Blad, I could go on and on. My Kiev doesn't see much use any more. I'm also an advanced photo student and I wouldn't trust my work with anything less than the Pro-S, especially when my crits are coming up and I need to do important shoots. If I were you, I'd rent an RB67 Pro-S for a weekend and see if you like it.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Anthony

 

P.S. Good luck in school!!

Becca,

 

I don't think there is a good reason to look at Kiev unless you want to have a lot of lenses

that aren't that great. I think Pentacon is a waste too (was for me).

 

Follow the above advice..... www.keh.com and look at Hassy 500cm A12 Back and an 80

Lens.

 

jmp

I have used hasselblad for 38 years but I recommend the pentax 6x7 SLR as an affordable alternative. The negative is large and the lenses are inexpensive. If you are doing prints then thsi will give you excellent 16x20". The lenses are very flexible and if you want to sell then there are buyers. There is a very excellent macro lense and wide angle. Do't bother with the 6x4.5 format. The larger negative sort of makes up for the lesse lense quality. IMHO don't waste you time with the Kiev. The pentax is used by pros and it is easy to handle adn realatively inexpensive.It has been made for over 35 years and even the olde models give good quality. Ask Sam Haskins.

I (sort of) agree with John Painter about the Pentacon Six. While mine takes

excellent photographs, there are also many frustrations. However, the Arax 60

(modified Kiev 60) body I got to replace it has been excellent and smooth

working and, IMO, the lenses are great (I have three E.German and three

Ukrainian ones and am happy with all of them).

Kiev is like burning your money. They might look like Hasselblad but I can tell you from my onw unfortunate experience they're not even in the same universe.

 

There is only one other MF SLR with the same quality glass as Hasselblad and that is Rollei which unless you go for an un-serviceable ancient model, is even more expensive than Blad. The prices on Hasselblad are incredibly low, and since there's no floorspace beneath worthless, all MF cameras are starting to compress into a price range where buying anything other than Hasselblad makes sense only if you want a larger neg such as a Mamiya RB. Go with www.keh.com as they offer a 14-day trial period and a 60 day warranty. Ebay is not for someone without good knowledge of the gear or the financial resources to deal with it if the item turns out to be not as represented.

I picked up a 501C/M, 80mm CFE, and A12 new style back for $1100 on eBay. Would that

be out of your budget?

<p>Becca,</p>

 

<p>Here's my 2cents contribution. If you're going to have to depend on the camera for your assignments, may I politely suggest that you keep away from Kiev's. If not, then by all means experiment with them, but I think sound advice has already been given about Kievs on this thread and many others.</p>

 

<p>If you are looking for something very similar to a Hasselblad, then I would suggest looking at the Bronica SQ series of cameras for square 6x6 images (I bought a 2nd hand SQ-Ai myself with 3 lenses, bellows pro shade S and AE Prism S for about USD1,499), or if you are happy with the rectangular frame, then Mamiya 645 or Bronica ETR(or ETRS or ETRSi) series. Have a look around, I would perhaps favour buying from a reputable 2nd hand equipment dealer like KEH.com rather than e-Bay. KEH.com is also a good place to have a look at for price guides so you know roughly how much you might be spending. All good machines and considerably cheaper than Hasselblad.</p>

 

<p><a href="http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/bronica.htm">Robert White (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/bronica.htm)</a> in the UK is even selling a new Bronica ETRSi outfit with 75mm f/2.8 PE lens and waist level finder for GBP494 (er, works out to roughly less than USD900, I think). They are also selling new Bronica SQ-Ai outfits with 80mm f/2.8 PS lens for GBP720. You could even save a few extra dollars by buying the SQ-B. The SQ-B is a cut down version of the SQ-Ai which does not provide auto exposure options, etc.</p>

 

<p>Bottom line is that there are a lot of good deals out there in good pro hardware without having to dip into Kiev territory. Bear in mind that there are some very nice lenses in the Kiev line-up that are considerably cheaper than their Mamiya equivalents. However, you can only use them on certain models, so if you plan on making use of some of those Kiev lenses, make sure that the setup you have in mind is compatible.</p>

 

<p>Good luck! Let us know how you get along!</p>

I highly recommend kiev MF systems if you get a wide selection of lenses at affordable prices. I have had a kiev 88cm for one year and a half, bought from Kievcamera (mike fourman) and had no problem whatsover, contrary to what people think of!!! New hartblei and CZJ lenses are the first class glasses. I'm also impressed by the performance of new arsat 250/3.5MC, and 250/5.6MC. Hartblei has 45mm T/S, 65mm PS, and 150mm/2.8 available. Arsat has 30mm fisheye that has more than 70+lp/mm in the center and 30+lp/mm on the edge in the test reported in the medium format library. Arsat 55mm is the best shift lens in the kiev lens line (high resolution both at center and on edge). Flektogon 50/4 and sonnar 180/2.8 are star performaners in the carl zeiss jena lens line. What you need is to buy a upgraded camera from reputable dealers such as kievcamera or arax who stands behind what he sells.

 

Richard

Buy the hasselblad and as they say "cry once"

Yes. It's better to have a trustworthy camera with one lens than a crappy camera with several crappy lenses. Sooner or later you will want to build on the system you have and you want a quality foundation for that. Look around the apartement and see if there is something you can sell. As they say... if you own too many things, the things own you. Pawn something. Ugly jewlery someone once gave you... anything of some value that doesn't mean anything to you. I sold all kinds of other stuff to get my new Hasselblad. What do you want the most? -A good camera or a good couch. In 100 years... what will people remember you by? -"She was a great photographer" or "she always had a comfortable chair for guests to sit in".

 

If this isn't possible for you then at least consider that the content of an image is more important than the technical quality of it. A cheap medium format camera would then be better than no medium format camera. It also depends what type of photos you would make. It's difficult to get ahead in commercial smooth slick product photography with a cheap camera. But it's easy to make artsy looking Diana or Holga photos that are as good as other peoples' Diana or Holga photos because for that you can afford the same equipment that all the other people use.