Why don't printing services understand colour management?

I've asked questions like this before, but didn't get much of a

response.

<p>I have a properly calibrated and profiled monitor (used a Spyder)

and an Epson printer. I also have ICC profiles for the printer and

various paper types. When I use these, I can get very good colour

accuracy between the monitor and my prints and also by soft proofing

I can see quite well how my prints will look like and what colours

are out of gamut of the printer. It all works great.

<p>But sometimes I want to print photos in a larger size than my

printer can handle, so I use online printing services. Until now, my

experience with them has been disappointing - the prints are either

too light, too dark or the colours are not accurate.

<p>Unfortunately, most of those services don't understand colour

management - they only have some people who know how to push the

start button on the machine and that's it. Recently I e-mailed a

question to one of those services, I explained that I've calibrated

and profiled my monitor and that I would like to know if they have an

ICC profile for their printer(s) available. I got a very short

answer: "We don't use ICC profiles". If they don't care about colour

management, how can you take them seriously?! Looks like their

service is only suitable for snapshooters who don't know and don't

care about colour accuracy.

<p>Are there ANY good printing services, preferrably in the

Netherlands or in Europe, that do take their work seriously and can

supply me with ICC profiles?

Good to see that in other parts of the world labs don't take colour

management seriously! I have the same problem! They think there way is best

and treat us - the photographers - as if we know nothing on the matter. I had to

go to the point of righting my own ICC profiles for the labs and all of there

printers. Now we argue over which printer they'll print on. I had an experience

2 years ago - the lab said "you just balance your monitor to this print". Argue,

Complaint, Argue, Complain and the storey gos on. 1 year ago the lab told me

" If you don't use an ICC profile you'll never get accurate colour" Imagine my

frustration! They are coming around - slowly - keep the presure on them and

maybe we'll see some results in2 or 3 years maybe - lol

 

Its just stupid - almost all photographers in Aust are digital which is forcing

labs to re-consider there possition on Colour Management. But still on lab has

gone and compressed an SRGB colour space to suit all 6 printers. Result - no

image detail from origional file, poor saturation and greatly clipped colours.

Quite poor considering the printer can print more of the detail and colour.

 

Thats why I print most of my own - Epson all the way I say.

Epson can print more colour anyway!

Most printing firms come from a different background to photographers - they work mainly in CMYK and have 'closed loop' systems that lock their scanners to their presses without ICC profiling. Give them a tranny and they can scan and print it with great accuracy. Give them an RGB file and it's a different story especialy if they don't have the original. I would also point out that it's not just printers that don't understand colour management - most people don't fully understand it - simply matching ICC profiles from scanner to monitor to print is no quick fix for perfect colour despite what the companies selling their products will say.

I've just asked <a href="http://www.ofoto.de">Ofoto in Germany</a>. Their response: "We don't have ICC profiles. You should do some test prints and adjust your monitor to the prints you receive from us.". Ofcourse I'm not going to change the settings of my calibrated monitor to their prints....

<p>I've finally found one printing service in the USA that does have an ICC profile available: <a href="http://www.ezprints.com">EZ Prints</a>. Unfortunately it's in the USA, so shipping costs will be more expensive for me and it will take longer for the prints to get here.

<p>Is colour management using ICC profiles really so new that most print services don't know about it / understand it yet?

<I>Is colour management using ICC profiles really so new that most print services

don't know about it / understand it yet?</I> <P>No, these labs are just lazy and as

you say, geared towards , let us politely say, non-critical users. If you want a custom

lab, you are going to pay custom prices.

OK try this - if you were to have one of your prized slides published in a book would you trust the display on your monitor and the adjustments you made to the image on it or would you let the printing house scan, correct and match the original to the 4 colour press output? Printing shops are not lazy or incompetent - they tend to know how to do a job properly andhave learnt their trade - they just do it differently. they could also ask photographers - "why don't these photographers understand 4 colour process, dot gain etc"

<i>No, these labs are just lazy and as you say, geared towards , let us politely say, non-critical users. If you want a custom lab, you are going to pay custom prices.</i><p>

 

That's a gas. My local "pro" lab, where they'll talk your ear off about reciprocity and blah blah blah blah blah when all you want is a lens cap claims that their noritsu printer is "just rgb" and have not responded to my requests for ICC profiles. Apparently, the 4 or so CostCo centers in my area have digital printers that they profile at least once a year, despite costing half as much as the "pro" lab!<p>

Ha!

Hmmm... I wondered why my Epson 2200 prints kicked my "pro" lab's print's butt! They do good work developing slides and negs, and to a casual observer, I'm sure their prints look OK too. But the few times I've made a print at home and had them make the same print and compared the two, I'm glad I'm doing it myself now. Well, the color prints anyway! ;-) Best wishes . . .

Monitor and printer profiles are separate and independent. Your monitor should be calibrated so that the standard color space (sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc.) is accurately displayed. That profile applies a correction to compensate for the biases in your monitor.

 

Likewise, a printer profile adjusts the output from your color space to compensate for the peculiarities of that printer.

 

There are several services which will provide a target file which you can send to the printer. Then you send the print to the service which provided the target. They scan the print and send you a profile to be applied to the image files you send to that printing service. In Photoshop, you have to "apply" the profile, rather than "convert."

Jesper,

 

Did you try Peter Paul Huf's Het Lab in Diemen? He surely

knows how to deal with profiles and is also able to make very big

prints. (You want to cover buildings?)

 

I am using Marcel Kraan Fotografie in Montfoort, who is using the

standard sRGB profile on his Noritsu lightyet. Only problem is

that he doesn't print very big. His service is very good and you

can stand next to him to see if he is doing what you want him to

do. Several pro's use his lab for their digital and scanned

pictures (for an amateur price). If you work in Adobe 98 he'll

convert it to his own sRGB color space and create great prints for

you.

 

Let us hear your experiences!

Thanks Erik, I will try that!

Jesper, I'm also from the netherlands and have found 2 services that where satisfactory for me. The first is a simple local lab (in apeldoorn) that (like the poster above) allows me to 'work-along' with the operator (only for prints upto 20x30cm).

 

For bigger prints (up to 50x70cm) I use Colormailer, which specifies ICC sRGB for uploads, and have been very happy with their results (b.t.w.: the results above 30x45 sizesfrom colormailer is far-far-far better then those from digitaalfoto.nl (and about 20-30 whopping euro's cheaper per-print at 50x70!) plus they also offer matte / glossy choice at large sizes.

 

Succes!

Thank you Bart, actually, the first one I asked about ICC profiles was digitaalfoto.nl, and they only replied with one very short sentence: "We don't use ICC profiles.".

<p>I'll try <a href="http://www.colormailer.com/">ColorMailer</a> and see how the results are.

Hi I have also been told that Costco will give you excellent results. Here is the link to the page with the printer profiles.

 

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Frontier/using_frontier_profiles.htm

 

ruby rieke

I have been using Costco and I am very happy with the results. My local Costco uses Fujicolor Crystal Archive Paper on a Noritsu 2901. Custom ICC Profiles are provided for Lustre/Matte and Glossy papers which are updated periodically on http://drycreekphoto.com .

 

Costco only charges me 19 cents for a 4x6 and 1.99 for a 8x10. I have been very happy with the results. More so that some of my local pro labs - many of which don't provide ICC files.

 

dry creek photo also has profiles for printers in Europe including the Netherlands (2 in Amsterdam, 1 in the Hague). Check the database on that website.

 

In regard to websites like Ophoto and Snapfish not having ICC profiles available for download - I actually sort of understand. They are such large scale vendors that I'm sure that they have several print centers with different printing equipment. They don't want to get into the trap of having to send a specific print job to a specific printer. In such a large operation I beleive that this would add cost and introduce additional delays/bottlenecks.

I am working on the same question, and after much frustration (see my recent post), I have just had a very intelligible and encouraging response from www.photobox.co.uk. They also sent me their ICC profiles. Bless!

 

They did some really nice casual work for me last Christmas (greeting cards) and I am looking forward to seeing what they can do when we actually work on doing it properly.

Your experience is typical of the whole world, since minilabs came into being...IMHO.

 

Not only do most operators have no clue regardings regarding supplying you with profiles, most are totally unaware of the simplest push-button custom options on their machines, such as white border, full-frame etc. etc. It's really bad...

 

I've had Fuji Frontier prints made by a Fuji-owned Lab in Japan where the operators were all full time Fuji employees. The quality was so good, I practically wept tears of joy.