A Challenge to the Forum

I think more can be done for the format if the more experienced

shooters take interested parties under their wing and instruct them.

Show them the ropes and let them take a picture on your equipment. I

also believe that practicing LF photography as an inexperienced

shooter is always more interesting when sharing the experience with

others. Granted as time goes on you'll want to strike out on your own,

but a LF companion has it rewards. When people see me shooting my

camera it always brings interesting comments. From now on I'm going to

let them take a look thru the GG, and if their a shooter let them take

a B&W. I always carry more than enough. If the experience pips their

interest I'll help them with buying a camera.

DK....I think you and everybody else is right talking from

their

individual perspective, and I understand that the choice I made might

not work for others and I would just add this.

<p>

I am a woodworker

just like Grey, I bought the best tools I could afford, which helped

to keep the fingers that I need dearly to operate my cameras.

<p>

Woodworking teaches you some of the same things as LF(all

photography for that matter), discipline, patience, and using brutal

honesty in working out a budget for a project. That's why I KNEW I LF

was going to work for me.

<p>

When I started auditing this forum, I was open to everything, any

deal, any camera, and so for quite a long time I watched, listened,

and waited. Finding out about Robert White(thanks to Dave Anton), Mr

Cad, and dealing w/extreme caution on e-bay, helped me save a BIG

CHUNK on the LF gear I finally decided on.

<p>

Stating what I spent on LF in this post doesn't give you the

sense of the time that I took to research this. Quite a bit of time

was spread out between my purchase of the camera, each lens,

the tripod, the head and so forth. The whole process has taken close

to a couple of years I believe.

<p>

Quite a bit of time was taken inquiring, negotiating, e-mailing,

talking to folks about several cameras. I was close to getting an

810M from a dealer you all know for $1295, and that camera was sold

before I could close the deal. I had several promising deals fall

through. I'm the last guy in the world to 'blow a wad' on a 'name

brand' to 'show off' w/either the cars I drive, my woodworking tools,

or the camera I was finally lucky to get.

<p>

Bottom line is that I happy with what I've got for the amount of

money I paid for it, and the two year process it took is over.

There's no bad taste in my mouth. This cost more than what I thought

it would at the beginning, but there is not one single regret, since

this is for a lifetime and it's over.

My LF setup cost a little bit more than the $900 goal, but it was put

together in a manner that worked well for me. I think my #1 purchase

is something LF beginners should seriously consider.

<p>

1. LF class at community college $142

<p>

The class included access to B&W and color darkrooms, free chemistry,

and use of 4x5 monorails (Linhof, Sinar, Calumet) and field cameras

(Tachihara). This was one of the better investments I made. I

learned how to load and develop sheet film, how to use the movements

on both monorails and field cameras, and quite a few other things.

If I decided LF wasn't for me, I would have learned that up front.

However, after taking the class, I decided LF really fit my

personality and that I would be better off with a field camera than a

monorail. I looked at Speed Graphics, but had a good opportunity to

get a Shen Hao direct from Shanghai.

<p>

2. Shen Hao 4x5 from Shanghai (brought over by a colleague) $525

3. Calumet Caltar II-S 150/5.6 on eBay $200

4. Minolta Autometer IVf from KEH $150

5. Six used film holders from local shop $ 50

6. Used Tiltall tripod (had already) $ 50

7. Cable release $ 5

8. Homemade darkcloth $ 2

<p>

Total with class: $1124.

Total without class: $982

<p>

If I absolutely had to get under the $900 mark, I could have used my

35mm to meter, bought a less expensive meter, and/or bought a less

expensive lens, such as a 203/7.7 Ektar.

<p>

Dave

Hey, I understand...I use Leica rangefinders, and I used to have a

pretty nice little Hasselblad setup.....look, I know it all adds up,

I have what amounts to a nice little setup of studio gear myself, and

pretty decent darkroom of my own....where I work, we have probably

about $50K worth of equipment, and we're _nothing_ compared to a

commercial studio...this is a non-profit agency. I appreciate fine

tools, well machined cameras & lenses just as much as you do too

probably....I looked at Linhofs, a Horseman, and a couple of Sinars,

all I could afford....but went with the Cambo because it too, is a

fine camera, and can do everything I need....and the accesories won't

put me in the poor house when I need them....before that, I was using

a Graphic View II and a couple of Schneider lenses....and doing

freelance work of my own...my clients didn't know the shots were done

on this old equipment, they just knew the chromes looked how they

wanted to....what drove me crazy was that I was "spoiled" at work

using our Japanese cameras.....

<p>

Believe me, the temptation was strong to buy a nice, exquisite camera

that was a work of art unto itself.....but I've done that before with

the Hasselblads and found myself making money with the Graphics and

the beat up Nikons. Someone could spend a couple of hundred bucks on

a camera, get a polaroid back, a few cases of film, about 350 film

holders, a case or two Fujichrome, and maybe a used Wing Lynch and

run their own E6 for the price of some of those cameras.....

<p>

In the end it really _doesn't_ matter what you use, as long as it

works for you.

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

Oh yeah, seeing Dave's post up there reminds...my introduction to LF

came in the way of messing around with press cameras in high school,

getting crap jobs as an assistant (loading holders for hours on end),

and then going to a 2 yr. technical school in photography and using

old Calumet cameras and then Sinar Alpinas....then hurled out into the

world of commercial studios only to find myself once again, loading

holders all day long and sweeping studio floors....

<p>

His advice is the best, try to find a decent community college

course....

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

Great post, Kevin. I'm a person who appreciates finely

engineered cameras, watches, and motorcycles but can afford

none of them. I'm a student on a budget and have to make do

with what I can afford. When I sold my medium format system to

get into LF, I debated whether to buy one of several high-end

cameras that were beautifully made but opted to go the budget

route. After much thought over a Tachihara for field use, I

decided to go the route that it seems very few people go: build a

Bender 4x5.

<p>

The camera is no Linhof, but it has reminded me that

photography is more about my vision than my equipment. As

much as I wish the camera was as silky smooth as a Linhof

(can you tell I like Linhofs?), I enjoy the experience of using a

camera that people consider a piece of garbage compared to

most LF cameras. If I were to make my income from

photography or did digital macro work, the Bender would not

have been my first choice, but I realistically cannot see myself

actually NEEDING another camera. It does everything I need it to

do in the field or in my apartment.

<p>

I already had a Sekonic light meter and tripod, so figure a bit

more money if you don't have either one, but this is how much it

cost me:

<p>

Bender kit: $280

misc. parts: $20

Caltar II-N 150/5.6: $250

bag bellows: $30

dark cloth: $30

long monorail for macro work: $30

Fuji Quickload holder: $100

TOTAL: $740

<p>

Not bad. I can't tell the difference between the images I've made

with this camera and a Calumet NX that I recently acquired (a

great camera for studio work or field work if you have a car).

<p>

Again, great post, Kevin.

Well, i generally agree with the other posters in this topic.

<p>

I just started in LF, after tying 35mm (tiny slides) by getting a

Crown Graphic, 90mm angulon 6.8 and 6x9 back(for about $380). I

(think I) broke it amlost immediately. The ball bearings (can't

figure out what those are for though) are falling out of the box.

Still workable though.

<p>

Bottom line, get the cheap camera, and it doesn't matter if you break

it. you can always get the $4k ++ new lenses and ebony, Linhof etc

when you grow up with the camera. Doesn't make sense to spend that

kind of cash just to start.

<p>

In the meantime, I'll just amble along with my (seriously crippled

with reference to movements) Crown Graphic until I am familiar enough

then get a calumet or linhof...

<p>

P.S.: Any help with the Crown Graphic would be greatly appreciated

Let me give you all two more real life examples, and then maybe you'll

understand a little of my attitude on this.....years ago I worked in

the stockroom of a camera store. I didn't do too well out on the floor

because I didn't have quite the "right" atttitude that the owner

wanted.....one day this student pulled up in front of the store in a

nice little sportscar and came in and said something like: "I'm taking

a photo course next year and need a camera, I want the best that money

can buy"....we were a Leica dealer, so the owner took her over to the

case and by the time she left the store he had set her up with a nice

Leica slr and a couple of lenses, PLUS a little darkroom

outfit....after she left, I said something to him like "she would have

been okay with a K1000 or an FE2..." and he replied "but she said she

wanted the BEST money could buy"....ahh, the finer points....yes, a

Leica is much better than an FE2, but will it help you take better

photos? Hmmm....

<p>

My second example comes from some years later, working a short stint

as an assistant in a large home furnishings/furniture studio....the

guys I worked for were using 50+ yr. old deardorrfs, Wollensak and

Ektar lenses, and shooting 4x5 through 8x10 chromes of very large

sets. The sets were built on key walls that looked like a TV studio

almost and lit with 25-30+ Mole Richardson hotlights...solarspots,

nooklites, mickey-moles etc. They didn't use shutters, but instead

just hung little cardboard film boxes off the front of the lenses and

used stopwatches instead because the exposures were all like 15

minutes long....they also didn't use light meters--at all---everything

was lit & judged by an experienced eye, and a polaroid or two. In some

cases, they'd burn a sheet of b&w as a test & run that before a sheet

of CT....for the actual shot, they'd often just shoot one sheet only &

run that. The final product was done on longroll contact printers and

the prints were all color balanced against the furniture in their

lab.....and then bound into massive volumes for the showrooms....you

could see a hair lying on a tabletop, the images were so

tacksharp...all on this old, beat up equipment....there are probably a

hundred or more studios in High Point NC area that operate this way

today, including the largest photo studio in the world....

<p>

so, forgive me if I come off sounding like a jerk, but also kind of

understand, that my background in LF has taught something a little

different than fine, exquisite tools and high-tech lighting systems,

spot meters etc. as being the "basic" equipment needed....

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

With all the digital hype, people are sometimes willing to let go off

their LF stuff for throwaway prices to get into digital. <p>

I got back into LF earlier this year when I was offered a deal I

couldn't resist: Cambo Legend 4x5 with Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-N

240mm, 9 Fidelity holders, Polaroid 545i holder and Bogen 3051 tripod

with 3039 head, all in 100% mint condition, for a bit over $900..

DK....what the owner did wasn't dishonest, but it wasn't totally

'upfront either'. You put together a stack of reasonably well done

images, and tell someone to pick out which one was done by the Leica,

the Nikon, the Contax, the Canon and so forth, nobody would be able to

do it on a consistent basis.

<p>

The same thing applies to LF whether the image was done by gear

that is 1 or 50 yrs old. I'm older than that Deardorff that you

mentioned and am at a point in life where there are certain things I

don't want to mess with.

<p>

There is one headache I don't need, and that is buying other

peoples headaches. Throughout my 35mm/MF/and now LF buying history,

I've run into three kinds of equipment. The top used gear is

used/mint/demo/just sat there and gathered dust, and sold by folks who

are willing to give you a good deal.

<p>

Then there is stuff that has been used and used a lot with a lot

of miles on it, but maintained and it may or may not last another 20yr

w/out a major overhaul and it may or may not have something wrong with

it, like a lens I almost bought a while ago that in fact need a major

overhaul of the shutter. Folks sell this stuff for what it's worth

SOMETIMES.

<p>

Then there is stuff that is shot, busted, broke, with stuff

missing, or just recently repaired and butchered by the guy who did

the repair, and being sold by a con man who will disappear the moment

he takes your money.

<p>

I've been involved in all three situations, and what basically

saved my butt many times from being taken was my experience. It makes

sense to buy basic if you are starting out and not sure if you want to

do this for a lifetime. A young kid starting out doesn't

necessarily need what I may get. I'm not going to spend any more time

defending what I got, I'm happy with it and that's it, but I would

emphasize that going the other route isn't always that easy and simple

either.

<p>

As per your example of your studio, there are folks who can work

magic w/the most basic equipment, BUT it takes a lot of time, energy,

patience, luck, and a hard head to protect yourself from some of the

folks out there selling used gear, and 'duck and dodge' and still come

up with decent gear. It isn't as simple as it's been thrown out in

this forum.

<p>

A young student who may not necessarily know what to look for,

what to ask, how to protect himself, might not want to be thrown 'out

there' without the help of somebody else who's experienced in this.

<p>

I agree w/getting gear on a small budget, but it wouldn't do the

beginner any good to get burned w/useless gear and no money. Having

said that, send these folks out for these 'deals' but give them help

if they ask for it.

<p>

You're not coming off like a jerk, you're expressing your

rightful opinion w/style and insight.

I have recently taken up LF (<6 months) and it wouldnt have happened

if I had to spend $1000 to 'have a play'. eBay has been a real source

of old but usable equipment that has helped with the investment. I

bought a Super Cambo monorail, 10 DDS, 135 Symmar lens and lens panel

for about $500. Since being hooked I have added an Omega D5X enlarger

($300) and a SA 65mm F8 ($350). All the equipment is built like a

tank and feels as if it could outlast me !

I will probably change to an ebony RSW from Robert White - mainly for

portability but I dont need to, to get great pleasure and an escape

from the fast pace of life.

I've had a ton of fun reading through these. Everybody seems to end

up with a Caltar 150 IIN which is a great choice. Bottom line is it

is do-able in the price range Kevin suggested, and with no quality

lost in the end result. And there's no wrong answer. I would

recommend the used Cambo outfits common on EBAY over the Speeds and

Crowns, but that's just me. They're nearly indestructable and you can

wind the bellows into a knot with movements that you don't need!

<p>

I'll date myself but when my best friend and I were high school kids

and getting our first car, his was a '58 Corvette, (what he could

afford) and mine was a '56 Volkswagen with a broken crankshaft to fix,

(what I could afford). Ultimately we both got to the same

destinations many times over, but God that Corvette was pretty! Dark

blue with the white insert. Yeah, we both got there but there's no

denying he got there in STYLE.

<p>

The guy that spent the big bucks on the Ebony and Fuji's did just

fine. People get so wierd on Ebay for high end stuff he'd probably

re-sell it and MAKE money. Meanwhile, just like the Corvette, it's

fun to dream about but I'll have to keep getting to my photographic

destinations with the old tried and true.

<p>

Let's see, Folmer & Schwing 11X14 on EBAY $362.00 (about the same

shape as the Volkswagen! I never learn) Schneider 305mm G-Claron in

barrel $161.00 (Ebay again) Polaroid Copal shutter for the claron $55.

2 more 1114 holders $285.00 New bellows for the 1114 $185 OOPS I'm

$50 over budget. Contact prints: incredible.

<p>

Does anyone know where I can get a good used forklift to hold the damn

thing up?

<p>

And DK, (can't resist, don't worry, you're preaching to the choir)

somebody had to pay the new price for those old Deardorffs, and

probably in 1930's depression dollars that if you compared to even the

Ebony now would astound you. 50++ years later they're still slugging

it out. Pays to buy the best you can afford.

<p>

Thanks for a good read to all! Jim Galli

Adrian:

Your post is going up on my darkroom wall. Thank you very much.

Dean

Well Jonathan, I wasn't saying the store owner was dishonest in that

transaction...you know that's the way the camera store business

works....we were one of the few Leica & Hasselblad dealers in our

area, you gotta move that stuff....I could tell you some more

depressing stories from that side of the business, but that's not the

point of this thread and frankly, not all camera stores operate that

way....like I was saying, my attitude was just a little more---shall I

say--"pedestrian" in what a beginner needs who has never touched a

35mm camera before in their lives....but then that's why I was

stocking shelves and always getting yelled at when I worked the

counters....

<p>

This other stuff is just the way I've encountered the commercial

business as being as an assistant....see, I'm not some huge big-time

shooter....I just have managed to earn a decent living doing something

I enjoy....I don't take myself too seriously, I don't claim to be some

hotshot studio shooter, or a fine artist. But I do know how to load a

holder, and do scheimpflug, how not to blow up a strobe pack, and all

the other little tricks of the

trade.

<p>

What you're missing from my posts is that when I said I upgraded to a

Cambo, I meant it. To me, that is not some cheapo camera that is going

to break down and leave me in the lurch on a job....the way I

understand some of this is that somehow a camera that costs less than

X

amount, is inferior and doomed....see, I could have bought a

used Sinar or a Horseman, a Linhof or any number of fine cameras for

LESS than the Cambo. But, then they'd be used....have you ever priced

a replacement stock bellows for even a Toyo? We've replaced 3 bellows

here over the past decade, and even Toyo parts are very expensive.

Don't even get into rails, recessed lensboards, bag bellows, hoods

etc. What I'm saying is that I make money with LF gear, I don't

particularly enjoy using them, I never have. But, it's something I

know how to do, and I used that experience to look at what I needed to

get things done. You are simply not going to find commercial studios,

or people in business in any field (or for long) who are using the

most expensive, exquisite materials there are....it just does not

happen in the world of photography, or at least not in the studios

I've ever been in.

<p>

Oh yeah, Deardorrfs are all over the place in the furniture studios,

as are Moles and Colortran lights etc. It's what they use, that's all

there is to it. You think these are little, low-end businesses? Think

again...this is and always has been a huge industry. Some of these

places were shooting up to 16x20, even back into the 90's. Take a tour

sometime if they still offer them at the big studios...they're using

those cameras and all that other gear because it's all paid for. Those

studios have been in business across many generations....and they

really churn out the shots. It's a huge production over there during

furniture market, and there are literally hundreds of photographers

working in that area. But in my experience, that's the way it is in

business....you make your purchase and just use the thing until it

absolutely ceases to function....everyone else may be using the latest

whiz-bang camera, but you could still be chugging along with your

"yashica-blad"....it doesn't matter as long as you keep getting paid,

and what I'm trying to tell you is that my experience with the less

fancy cameras is that they will do this rather well.

<p>

So, yeah...I sometimes wish we used better gear, but I'm sitting here

on the edge of a "working" studio...using at least one camera that's

20+ yrs. old, was here when I started and will be when I leave....it's

not some piece of junk, it's certainly not fancy, but I think it's a

pretty good return on our money.....

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

Let me add one more thing....then it's back to the gloomy recesses of

the lab for me....you talk about making a wise purchase for life.

Okay, good point. I have bailed some folks out who've made some

mistakes buying used processors and lab equipment over the past few

years.....if you're thinking of getting an Ilford 2150 dirt cheap,

talk to me first....same with a Royalprint, etc. You think LF is

mysterious, wait 'til you get into photofinishing gear! There's a ton

of great stuff flooded onto the market now, what with labs going

digital....but alot of folks have never experienced the hassle of

dealing with this stuff daily.....

<p>

The purchase for life? Well, I'm 35....I started assisting when I was

17. I have 2 years of newspaper stringing experience prior to that.

I've been in the NPPA since high school. I practically grew up hanging

out in newspaper darkrooms and sweeping the floors of photo

studios...I've had crappy, minimum wage lab jobs, assisting jobs

etc....but I always learned something from those jobs. I had to "sell"

myself on getting a new camera....I didn't buy that one before long,

serious consideration and planning the future for my little

career....so, yeah, 50 years from now (if they still make film), I

hope to be using my Cambo. I made that purchase using what I thought

was the same logic some of you all are saying......I dunno, maybe I

have an identity problem or something (haha)....?

<p>

That's it for me....

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

I hope this'll make you laugh, but when you were around five, all

this stuff was way less!

There were alot more sheet films on the market too....when I was

five. Actually, I'm a real pack rat when it comes to cameras and still

have one of my firsts...a 126 Mick-o-matic.....which I probably could

unload on eBay as a collectors item for alot more than my folks paid

for it back then....

<p>

This whole thread reminds me of a camera we took in last year as an

artifact here....it came out of an old portrait studio and had been in

use from the late 30's all the way through the mid 80's. It was a

Century Studio camera ...that had a split 5x7 back, and a dallyemyer

lens with waterhouse stops and a packard shutter. The same person used

it that entire time, and they'd set up a system to just knock out

these studio portraits using this thing...we got something like

25-30,000 negs or so with it as well.... The back was so used, that it

had grooves worn it where the holders were being slid in & out...I've

never seen anything like it. And yet here was this mom & pop studio,

working in one little town, shooting practically every headshot for

over 50 yrs on the same piece of equipment....you know 1980-85?

Shooting portraits & bridals with that beast?? Like I said, it was

paid for....

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency

Don't you know it! A camera that has touched a lot of lives.

Maybe digital will perform a kind of 'left handed function' of pushing

photo gear prices back to where they belong, lowering the cost of

having fun.

One of the first images that got me interested in Photography was

a 'TV' series with Charles Bronson I think, called something like 'I

am a Camera' or something along those lines or something similar I

can't remember exactly. The show started out with I think a 'press'

camera raised into view with the strobe firing off.

<p>

I've had that image in the back of my mind to this day.

Well...now we need to start a new thread...no, I'm afraid that digital

will eventually kill off the availablity of sheet film...or at least

in a way that it's still affordable. I'm not one to moan & groan about

the major manufacturers, but the writing is on the wall I'm

afraid....you know, in the preservation community there were certain

lab films that were unequalled for mundane things like copywork. The

commercial labs quit using them, so now they're gone....there's still

a need for them, there are no substitutes on the market, so what are

you gonna do? No, there will still be some films left, and smaller

companies may take over....but, back to when I was 5, well....super

speed graphics were in use professionally, and films? Pack films were

being phased out, but look at all the sheet sizes & stocks.....those

were the days to get into LF. Not so much now.... it won't be the

cameras that are expensive...it will be the film. Film is always the

cheapest thing, but not when it becomes near obsolete.....

<p>

wow, you all really picked me up today....gee thanks.

<p>

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my

agency.

There were some things back then that were great. You could go to

the movies for a dime! A big juicy hamburger that would put anything

today to shame was about 50 cents. I drove my brothers VW in high

school and it was $3.00 to fill up! The guy who started inflation

should've be shot!

Talking about cost reminds me of a story. When I was in photography

school in the 60's the owner of the school was a very "old school"

portrait photographer. We could only shoot 4x5 and 5x7. We were

forbidden even to bring a 35mm into the building. The owner said many

times: "You young fellows will learn to compose in the camera because

when you spend 13 cents for a sheet of film you will think twice

before you trip the shutter." Let's see --- that was about $13.00 for

a 100 sheet box of Royal Pan. Hmmm.

Did I say film is always the cheapest??....I guess we'll have to

adjust that .13/sheet to 2001 prices.....but, this old portrait studio

I was talking about was shooting jobs at 2-up on a single 5x7

sheet.....and the other places were doing one sheet only alot of

times....maybe you all should figure in a walk-in freezer and a

lifetime's supply of your favorite sheet film stock with the cost of a

"basic" kit as well....heaven forbid you get into chrome films or

polaroid...

There is a nice Osaka 4x5 cherrywood in mint condotion with lens and

darkcloth, a couple holders, cable release for $750US at Nelson's

Cameras in San Diego, California, USA. Email me and I will provide you

with a contact. There are many good values from people on this site.

james

Hello-

i am a lurker. this post is two years old.

I agree, large format is only going to get more and more expensive. I have shot with a Graflex B, which is essentially a giant 35mm SLR, but it makes me feel warm to know that I am using a camera which is as old as my grandfather. It costed me $90, the price of the "B" has declined immensely and can be had for as low as $30 on ebay! The "D" is a more modern camera, again, no movements, and can be had for well under $300.

Though, I consider myself a newbie to large format, as i mentioned above, the B is a giant 35mm SLR, no movements. BUT IT IS AN SLR! HOW COOL IS THAT!

Anyway, I bought a 4x5 "mystery calumet" I think it's a 540, but i am not sure, it has not arrived yet. I bought a 90mm angulon, not the best choice for 4x5, a very late model Graflex 6x7 back (very happy I can still shoot Graflex) for when I don't want to shoot 4x5 and until i get a better lens and all for about $600, and that includes shipping from various parts of the country!

Large format does not need to cost $4,000 to start up in! If i spent another $60 i could have gotten a chrome Super Angulon (eBay)which would be more than enough coverage, and even older Normal and longer Wide Angles are plentiful and inexpensive! I could have bought MANY film holders for the price of the Graflex holder, used they run around $5-15! Even new, $10-25, since you can only get 8 6x7 frames, 4-8 film holders are really needed to get started, less if you shoot studio.

I think that this is a good cause, and I hope that someone sees it in Unified and starts talking again. Nothing is more flexible that large, you can shoot many formats, many more than any other format. Almost every day when I am out shooting atleast two or three times, often more I keep saying "man I wish I had a view camera right now" Once you know what LF allows you to do, almost any situation can be tackled!

It's like going from Velbon to Manfrotto. Velbon makes great tripods, and Contax, Nikon, Canon, ect make great cameras, but the Manfrotto is SO much more flexible, albeit a lot heavier. I still use my Velbon, I still use my Contax. But I am very excited to use a view camera again.