Nikon Dilemma

Alrighty, I'm a Photography student here at The Art Institute of

Pittsburgh going mainly for news and the journalistic side of

things. I�ve recently come to the decision that I need a new body

to replace my manual dog fm-10. I look around and all I see are

incompatible G type lenses and the eventual phasing out of anything

current and new that will work with my fm-10. I am looking to the

future and I want to make the jump to a nicely featured film camera

that will serve as a jumping point for when I can afford to go

Digital.

 

As I see it I have these smart and affordable options (bear with me):

 

1. Dump the FM-10 manual system completely, AI-S lenses and

all, starting over with an affordable n80 body with an assortment of

G & D type AF lenses.

 

2. Get a more expensive N90, which I�ve heard is still

compatible with my AI-S fully manual lenses in center weighted and

spot metering modes.

 

3. Keep the FM-10 body for the time being and phase out all of

my manual AI-S lenses with D type AF lenses (those will work and

meter right correct � since they have aperture rings?).

 

I am at wits end trying to decide as I want to switch over to

digital someday without having to ditch all my old accumulated

gear. I figure if I do something about this dilemma now I can save

myself some major bucks without losing that much. I love film and

want a body that will let me make the digital jump with the same new

lenses.

 

As I said in the beginning I�m a very serious and passionate student

as I plan on making a career of my schooling. Unfortunately, funds

are of a concern and while I do realize that I have to spend to

receive I�d also like to be able to eat. Heh. Something like the

F5, the F100, or going digital now really isn�t a realistic option.

A compatible decently featured film camera is what I need now, one

that I can purchase glass for with confidence that I�ll be able to

carry it over with me into the future.

 

Any help, suggestions, and overall opinions are much appreciated.

I�ve probably made some stupid numbering mistake resulting in a

glaring incompatibility but I�m learning so harsh flame replies need

not apply. I�m putting this out in the open for those of you with

much more knowledge and experience than myself and I respect your

opinions.

 

Thanks. Matthew Rader

If any of you people have AOL Instant Messenger yo can reach me at: Sir Jimbob. I'd be more than happy to chat. :) Thanks.

Matthew<p>

 

I'm not a Nikon owner, but am quite familiar with the Nikon lineup (being a gear head). Think about cameras as tools for your trade/art. Upgrade/switch system only when you have the needs. <p>

What is missing from your FM-10 as you can identify it? Don't diss older manual focus camera just because it's not on the shelf anymore. I recently purchased a Yashica FX3 and found myself enjoying it treamendously. The purchase was the result of my frustration when my EOS camera rendered useless when the batteries ran out, at the wrong time. I still use my AF cameras when I find them more convenient for the situation.<p>

In conclusion, my recommendation is to stick to your FM-10, save your peanuts for a DSLR. The convenience of digital medium will pay off in news/journal work. M.

Matthew,

Someone asked a question below about how he should spend his $1000 on lenses. My first post asked several key questions and he's yet to answer them. I ask those same questions of almost everyone on the Nikon board who asks what camera/lens/flash they should buy.

 

What needs do you have that your current gear is not meeting? If you don't tell us that or honestly answer that question yourself you'll get 100 different answers all or none of which might be the right choice for you.

 

For what you say you're currently doing there's little reason to think that your current body should work just fine. If the journalism/photography dept. at your school is any good at all it probably has some loner bodies and lenses you can play with and use for special assingments.

 

If not, and you anticipate doing a wide variety of journalistic shoots (ie. news, sports, candids, occasional scenery), then and upgrade in body is indicated. The N90 would, indeed, be a good choice in that it would allow you to maintain your current AI-S lenses. But, as you imply, it won't go far in getting you prepared for a digial body, which is where you're going to want to be very soon since most all journalism seems to be going that direction.

 

So, how desperate are you? Can you drop hints at home for lenses or a body? Can you make any money on the side shooting frat/sorority parties and getting experience at the same time? How about shooting photos for ads in the student paper? What I'm getting at is that you might want to save up until you can get what you really want/need. Either an F100 or D100 body and some good D-AFS +/- G glass. Yea your looking at a couple grand, but it's stuff you won't have to upgrade for a long time and that you'll definately need that quality of gear before it's all said and done.

 

Good luck.

3rd paragraph should read <i>"there's little reason to think your current body <b>shouldn't</b> work just fine".</i> IOW, I think it should be OK for the time being....sorry.

I recently sold an N90s with lens when I stopped doing weddings, for much less than $500. I now wish I had kept it. These are not expensive on the current depressed camera market if you look at the photo.net classifieds or eBay. The N90 and N90s are NOT fully compatible with the G lenses...as I sadly discovered (advertisers don't list the compatible cameras!) but N90 cameras are awesome. I see no good reason why you want to switch from your FM-10 system since you are still learning the basics, but I think the N90/N90s cameras are a very good buy right now and would work well for you.

In PJ work, digital is now the only way to go....but do hold off. If you land a job, perhaps your employer will supply equipment. Even if he doesn't, I read today in the current PopPhoto that Nikon says their next generation professional Digital cameras will be 35mm format and NOT the reduced size of now. That will be reserved for the consumer cameras.

 

There really is nothing wrong with AI--S lenses. If your eyes are good, then keep shooting with them. They're very cheap now and if you are unhappy with your camera body, then pick up a classic F, F2, F3, or perhaps a FM2. The first two will last and run forever without batteries.

 

If you must have AF, then I'd investigate a used F4. Again, a professional body that can take years of hard use. N90's are going cheaper as well, though not as robust as the F4.

 

Like I say, if MF doesn't bother you stay with the AI-S lenses. I just bought a mint 24 F:2.8 AIS with hood for $150 and a used AF is usually $75-100 more.

My main concern, in keeping with the fm-10, is incompatibility. Sure, it'll get the job done just as well as anything else but I don't want to go ahead and continue buying lenses that won't work with digital. I guess I'm planing for the long run in and I'd like to think I'm obtaining a collection of glass that will be there for me and tha tI won't have to ditch.

 

For instance, I need to buy a tele and I dunno if I can justify buying a lens that I will have to ditch in a few years. I just hate wasting things and I figure that if I jump on the problem early I'll only lose to lenses as compared to a lot more.

 

Matthew

I suppose it not really as big a deal as I've made things out to be. I've nothing bad to say about my FM-10. I love the thing. It's the the future incompatibility issue in the lenses and wasted money that causes me to think I need another body.

The thing I'd do right now is consider what lenses do you need that you don't have right now? You mentioned telephoto...There are Lots of Telephoto af lenses that are not G types, that will work with BOTH the new bodies and your current one. Such as: (all AF) 85 1.4/1.8, 105 (Micro or normal), either of the 80-200 f2.8 (2 touch, AF-S or not), 300 f4 (AF-S or not again) and all the big glass would work on your fm10 as well as on the newest bodies. So, unless you're planning to buy LOTS of lenses really soon, you can probably hang tight with that fm10 and wait until you can afford to get the body/bodies you want.

 

I use both a new snazzy film Nikon and an old manual nikon, and Iv'e got my eye on a digital body...I have 17-500mm covered. It's all usable on both the old and new camera. I guess what I'm saying is that there are still lots of choices out there that will allow you to move SLOWLY as you decide what to get...

 

Most importantly, take the advice to really analyze what's missing before making changes! IF it were me, and money was tight, maybe I'd look at a moderate tele lens for now (or nothing), then save your money for food and film!

The days of compatibility are not quite over There are still plenty of

non-G AF and AFS lenses that will work fine with pro digital bodies,

and most of the best film bodies all meter with AI/AIS lenses: that

list includes the N8008s(F801s), N90s (F90x), F100, F4, and F5.

Keh.com, the safest place to shop, will sell you an N8008s in

"excellent" for $300, and an N90s for $100 more. Auction prices are

typically a bit lower. So you really haven't got a problem....

Matthew<p>Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Sorry if that sounds like some slogan off a "feel good" poster. The truth is that nobody knows what tomorrow will bring. Who knows if in 10 years we'll all be using digital cell phone cameras? In the mean time, you've got the here and now. You can learn photography just as well using an FM-10 as by using any other camera. All Nikon F mount AI (or AI'd) lenses from the 1970s onwards are compatible with it. So why worry about the future? What you have will take you through your student days. If you want long lenses, there are many great telephoto lenses in AI/AIS mount from 180mm to 300mm and beyond. They are a lot less money than the AF equivalents, and more solidly built as a rule too. Spend your money on lenses rather than camera bodies, if you have the choice.<p>When you're out working, then these items become business expenses, and then it's worth getting whatever toys become your heart's content.

Hi Matthew,

 

First, you say that compatibility is your main concern, right? Well, if this being the

main reason you are deciding to upgrade, think about this...

 

By the time you can afford the lense that are not compatible with the FM-10, you

most likely will not use the camera anymore and have funds to purchase a higher end

body.

 

And just how many G lenses are out there worth purchasing right now? Only a

handful, and you will be paying premium prices. I know the devout following of

cameras like the N90, F4, and such (neither have full compatibility with G lenses), and

the lifetime users of these cameras are not concerned about trading in.

 

My advice to you.... Purchase a solid camera to help you further your education. A

camera with a better metering system, more solid construction, and the ability to AF

lenses. So you want it to work with AI and AiS huh? How about an F4? Arguably the

best Nikon ever made... and it will fit what you've described well... Flexible, solid, and

pretty inexpensive for what you're getting...

 

I would skip the N80 if you already have Ais or Ai lenses and plan on purchasing more

of them. The N90 is a great choice and recently have made a STEEP decline in price

on that one big auction site. I've seen Excellent+ going for $300 or so.

 

If you have the cash, $400-$500 for a good condition one, buy a used F4

combination (F4, F4s, F4E) and realize that you've made a solid investment should

you choose to sell the camera down the line. The F4 is what dreams are made of, and

will be compatible with almost all Nikkors.

 

My vote for the F4 and keep all you AiS or Ai, buy a few older AF, then Add some

AFD's. I know someone is going to ring in about the great N90s, which is also a fine

camera. Just a thought.

Hmmm...

 

I just don't know what to do. I'm really not invested into any avenue to far. I suppose I will have to think about things. I really want a AF compatible camera, not that I'd use the feature much but atleast then I could buy lenses that I use on bodies introduced in the future and digital cameras when I can afford them.

 

I fell into a nicely conditioned AF G telephoto lense so that one of the things I've already got if I were to get a AF body. As for the FM-10 I love the thing but it just feels ancient and I've only got a 28mm and a 35-70mm zoom for it. The thing that really spawned got me thinking was that I already have the tele G lens that is currently just collecting dust with my fm10. I figured I could situate myself for the future by going with a rig that supported AF G lenses.

 

I dunno now. you guys have gotten me questioning all my options now. I'm on a 2 week break now up until I really need to shoot an assignment so I have some time to think I guess. I really don't want to spend any more than $500 and I'd rather spend less if possible. What would you guys recommend if I were to go and get the new AF body. Is the N80 a quality cantidate or what? What about if I stick with the fm-10 and need to look for a 70-200ish tele?

 

So many choices! :D Thanks so much so far guys!

Matthew<p>How much did you spend on that G lens? I don't think it will work on an N80, but those who know about autofocus cameras can tell you (I don't, I'm ancient). If you want to be a pro, just do as the pros do and shoot the heck out of the FM-10 until you have to hold it together with gaffer tape. Then you'll have extracted every last penny out of your investment. In the meantime, there are great deals on used glass of the sharpest kind that Nikon ever made. For example, the 180mm f/2.8 ED. Available in AI/AIS or AF flavors, for somewhere in the neighbourhood of $300 - 350 now on the evil auction site. It will be sharper than just about any zoom that encompasses 180mm. You can sell off your G lens on evil bay and pick up one of these, or an 80-200. I don't know if the 80-200 is going to be under your $500 budget, but I know that the 180 will be. If you don't need fast glass (but you probably will, as you aim to be a PJ), then the 200 f/4 AI/AIS is effectively as sharp for only about $100. I had a great performing $25 200mm f/3.5 Vivitar lens, until the original owner asked to have it back and gave me the 200 f/4 Nikkor in trade (plus change). If you look around evil bay, you'll make your pennies strech. Not every servicable lens has to be the latest Super AF-D ED-IF VR Nikkor.<p>When I was a young college student back in the ancient 1980s, I did things such as bulk roll B&W film and do my own developing in order to save money. That may help you get out to McDonald's every now and then for a decent meal (I say this in jest)!

I see... I can say this... There are no where near the quantity of G leneses as there is

Ais, Ai,

and AF-AFD. I wouldnt make a decision based on a 70-200 G. You can always sell it

and put it towards gear.

 

The N90 would proably fit you well.. Only you will be able to determine this.

 

If you are looking to spend $500 or less, I would still reccomend the F4. The N80 is

a fantastic camera, dont get me wrong, but if you are on a student budget (as I'm

about to be on again!) then go with something compatible with a less expensive Ai or

AiS lenses.

 

Here's my deal... I shoot with an F5 and F2. I have a mix of Ais, Ai, AF, AFD, and AFS

lenses. I just sold the F2, and I'm buying a D2H when realeased. The D2H is going to

be the primary PJ camera from nikon, and it excepts and meters Ai and AiS glass.

 

Seeing that Nikon is providing Digital support for older leneses on some fronts, I

would stick with a film camera that will do the same. As it's been said, many of the Ai

and AiS lenses are actually better in many respects then their AF replacements. Just a

thought...

A buddy of mine is borrowing it right now its a Nikon 80-300 F4/5.6 G Lens. I do my own developing too for B/W. Its the only way to go. :)

Matthew, put that $500 in a 12 month CD and keep shooting what you've got. I sense you're developing a case of gear envy---resist it Man, resist!!

 

Seriously, the FM10 is a pretty cheap camera, but if it works, and does everything you need, shoot it until it stops working or won't do what you need to do the work you're trying to do. Maybe you'll find you want to get and FM3A or an old FM2n--great manual focus limited feature cameras that are still the stand up work horses of the Nikon line.

 

As someone said above, worry about tomorrow when it gets here...and that won't be for at least 3-4 years for you if I read the signs correctly. By then you'll KNOW what camera and lenses you need. Right now you'd be taking guesses at best. You don't know where the Nikon line will go, where your shooting needs will go, what lenses will come out by then that will better suit your needs. The G lens you have is not very good so don't go building a system around that either.

 

Invest the money you've got in real estate or something, let it grow, keep an eye on the industry. Shoot all the film you can get your hands on and learn to compose, create, exposure, light, all the basics. I promise, you will not have to come here to PN to ask a bunch of annonymous nobodies what camera to buy, you'll know what you need. If you have questions then it will be how many extra battery packs or feature specific questions to fine tune your already made decision.

 

Resist gear envy......

Mathew, I understand your dilemma concerning the g lenses. I have an intense dislike for this mount. Sadly Nikon saves money on every one made so they remain a fact of life. My hope is that Nikon will continue producing the D mount and maybe go to a parallel line of some lenses in both mounts.

 

Now the good news. There have been several posters who have stated that the newest Nikon Digital, the D2H, is fully compatable with the AIS mount. This indicates to me that Nikon plans on retaining AIS compatability in the pro line for the near term, ie. at least the next 5 years. It also means that you don't have to worry about dumping your existing lenses. Currently the F100 and F5 are also AIS compatible.

 

The N90, N90s, and the N8008s will function, with limitations, with the g mount lens. The limitations are that you must use Shutter Preferred or Program Modes. Manual mode and Aperture preferred will not function. By shooting in program mode you can use the flexible program feature to obtain any shutter/aperture combination you need. The AF will function normally. If you want to get an inexpensive AF body I would recomend that you look at the N8008s. I have both the N90s and the N8008s and prefer the earlier camera. The N8008s is more compact and I feel it is better balanced. The N8008s can be found for as low as 150.00 dollars in decent working condition, a big plus for your budget. Many knock the AF as being slow, in my experience it is almost as fast as the N90s in moderate to bright light. Only in low light with a lens slower that f2.8 does it show it's age, it will sometimes hunt and not find focus. The low light problem can easily be overcome by selecting a high contrast target at the same distance, locking focus, and re-composing. This habit of target selection is now so ingrained that I also use it when shooting with the F5. Nikon changed the increment for the command dial to 1/3 stop with the N90s and it takes 3 times as much dial twiddling to shift the program or change the shutter speed on the later camera, another reason I prefer the N8008s. The N8008s and N90 both have full stop increments, this speeds up the handling by a considerable amount. All 3 bodies are fully compatable with AIS mount lenses.

 

Take a look at the N8008s at a local used camera shop and give it a try. I think that you will find it a big step up from your FM10. I feel that it is the AF equivalent of the F3, it's just as durable and has a really nice balance. It is also a real sleeper in the used camera market, so many people beleive that newer is always better they forget how good this camera is. Low demand equals low prices and it's a real bargain. The money you save can allow you to get another lens or 2 at the same time. For PJ work you will want to get some faster primes, a 35mm f2 and an 85 f1.8 are the first that come to mind.

 

Don't be in a big rush to go digital unless your employer is paying for it. Digital is changing so fast right now that what you buy today has almost no market value after as little as 2 or 3 years. Think about how all the D1X owners are going to feel when the D2X hits the market, they will be lucky to get 600.00 in trade for the new body.

30 plus years of Nikon ownership has taught me procrastination. The longer you can wait, the more clearly the evolutionary path reveals itself and the more clearly you understand your needs.

 

The top end Nikon digitals (I'm not including the D100 here) are still fully compatible with the AIS lenses in all modes that the film bodies of their day supported. Additionally, all of the current non-G lenses are fully functional with your FM-10 in all its modes. Until that changes, why spend money (unless there is something your FM-10 and lenses won't do that you really need to do, but that wasn't what you asked).

 

N90 and G lenses are bad combo so this isn't a long term solution, N80 won't work with AIS lenses, and it seems silly to replace perfectly good AIS glass with AFD/AFS until you have an AF body.

 

So what is it you need to do that your FM-10 won't do? Your FM-10 won't take the beating my ancient F has, but it will do everything the F does!

 

And what happens if the job you get supplies you with Canon gear?

Matthew:

 

To be honest, when you only have 3 lenses, I think it makes a lot more sense to buy AF-D lenses (which are the most versatile) than thinking about a body. You can accomplish a lot more.

 

1) Think about 50F1.8, 85 F1.8 or even 18-35 zooms, or telephoto (even a used 80-200 AFD F2.8). The 70-300 G lens you have is, sorry, nothing special.

 

2) I think even if you stick with Nikon, eventually you may feel the need to upgrade. I suggest getting one camera which is a lot more capable than the N-80. It could be a digital one, or a film one like the F100, but worry about that later. Don't get shunted into buying the 8008's which cannot use the VR or AFS or G lenses. Then you can relegate the FM10 to a backup role. Don't spend your precious money on a model that proves to be only an incremental improvement.

 

3) Also think about buying a decent TTL flash (also Nikon digital compatible) with an automatic mode so you can use it now.

Yeah I really need a flash with ttl too. I've been looking at the sb80.

I don't follow your logic - you want to switch now to avoid switching later? It should

be othe other way round.

 

The lenses you have now are practically incompatible with midrange Nikon bodies like

the N80 (no metering with AI-S lenses). If you switch, your existing investment will be

toast, or at least severely depreciated. In fact, migrating from Nikon MF to Nikon AF

will be more disruptive than migrating to the Canon AF system, which can at least do

stop-down metering with AI-S lenses via a mechanical mount adapter. At that point, I

would look long and hard at Canon as an alternative, specially now the $900 Digital

Rebel is out.

 

The path that makes most sense is for you to buy only AF-D lenses from now. They

may not be as smooth and solidly built as AI-S lenses, but they are compatible with

your FM10, and they will stay compatible with future Nikon bodies, unless Nikon

decides to pull a Canon and ditch the F mount completely (a highly unlikely prospect).

If at some point you must absolutely have a lens that is only available in a G mount,

you can then switch to an AF body that will be compatible with both your AF-D and

your G lenses.

If your body is doing the job for you now (and for the foreseeable future - at least while you're in school), then I would not recommend changing it. If your main concern is about compatibility (ie. protecing your investment in new lens purchases), then I would strongly recommend that you purchase "D" series AF lenses (used or new) - the plain type, not the "VR" or "AF-S" versions. These are really the most versatile since they can be used with any Ai/AiS manual Nikon body (such as your FM-10) as well as all of the past and present AF bodies (both film and digital).

 

Choosing a new body (possibly a $500+ investment) because you have a $100 "G" lens of average quality is letting the tail wag the dog. You are better off unloadng the G lens and getting what you can for it, then putting your $500 (+ the cash from the G lens) towards one or more decent AF-D lenses. Then, when you really ARE ready for a new body, you AF-D's will be ready to go with it. And your FM-10 and your two AIS lenses become your backup or second film camera.

 

As for the flash, you would be wasting your money on the SB-80 for the FM-10. You are better off getting a Vivitar 285. The SB-80 is almost $300, the Vivitar is $80. The FM-10 only has X-sync anyway (no TTL) so you don't need a Nikon dedicated flash. They have the same guide number rating and the Vivitar can be set to a range of power settings manually from 1/16 to full power. This means you can use it off camera (with a simple and cheap adapter and cable) and vary the power. This might be useful for some of your creative photo assignments ... now you have a cheap (but decent) "monolight-like" strobe setup.

 

Good luck!

The sky has not fallen yet. All but two of my lenses work on everything camera from an F2As, through FE2(s) and FM2n(s) to my F5. The two that don�t work on everything are macro lenses that will work with all but one on the 27.5mm extension tube supplied. In this case, my F100 will not allow stop-down metering that every other body will. Even there a hand held meter is an option. The dates of manufacture span 1965 to 2000. The sky has held up pretty well since I started in 1970. My current system dates from 1978 to 2003 (that's purchase dates). Do I bitch about the G lenses? You bet. Do I know what Nikon will do? No.

 

Nikon may have good reason for making the aperture control ring and AF-S VR mutually exclusive. The lastest indication on lens compatabilty is that AI and AIS and perhaps all the way back to 1959 will be compatable with the Nikon D2h. This will exclude a hand full, those that require MLU and probably a couple designed for the Nikon F3AFHP.

 

It sounds like you�re in something of a panic. Panic is probably too strong but I can�t think of another word just now. More than anything it appears to me that you lack some good medium fast primes. You mention a 28mm lens. Which 28mm lens? I�m guessing the 35~70 is the kit zoom, f/3.3 to 4.8 or something. Due to your budget I�d stay with AI and AIS lenses. I�d be inclined to talk to some of your professors first.

 

A few lenses that would make sense to me are 28/2.0 AI or AIS, 35/2.0 AIS, AF 35~70/2.8D, 50/1.4 AIS, 180/2.8 ED AI or AIS. If you need a flash on a very tight budget I�d get a Vivitar 285HV. It�s a work horse. You need glass much more that a top of the line AF speedlight for a camera you do not own.

 

The best thing might be to put most or all of the money in savings.

 

The first "customers" you will need to please are your professors.

 

All the best,