nate_delucca

<blockquote>

<p>Nothing I can do about it (I will not take cuts from newcomers) except mind my own business and be creative about marketing myself.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's a very noble concept, Nadine, but you end up adding another very difficult hat to your already growing collection. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>In my area there is a similar program called The Short List.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I checked out the Short List site you were referring to. It's not similar at all to what I was referring to. The Short List really has no marketing properties, it relies on the consumer being pre-sold on the value of the photographers, finding the website without any incentive for action, and randomly basing decisions on taste and preference, without being educated to any other variables between the photographers. Where is the incentive for anyone to do anything with these photographers, specifically promote them? My guess is it doesn't do anything at all for most of the people there because there's no motivating force behind it. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>These sites exist. Here is one. Just google 'bad wedding photos' or similar.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Those aren't sites, those are pages. Just random posts that someone will casually make about a given subject. Not at all the same as someone saying there's enough bad content out there to dedicate a entire authority site to it, where the content will constantly be refreshed on a daily basis because that's just how much bad there is out there. By only having an occasional post, it actually makes it appear that there's not a lot of bad photo shoots happening. </p>

<p>Peter, that "saving the day" bit was pretty interesting to me.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>How many times have each of you in some small or large way, saved the day?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm hope you work that concept into your USP because I feel like bride's love hearing that. I don't know if it's any different than anyone else, but I know my fiance doesn't feel that way about her photographer. Not yet anyway. Might as well market it though instead of just being an unannounced bonus, could separate you from someone in a close race. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>... educate ourselves about marketing first...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree Nadine with your whole statement, I think this thread has been proving that the whole time. So what I'd like to hear from you is, how do you do this? And, what forms of marketing are you focusing on? There are many paths to choose to go, which ones do you focus on as an appropriate use of you valuable time?</p>

<p>And when should you decide that it's better to leverage?</p>

<p>With all the hats that wedding photographers wear, it's surprising that most don't outsource more. As in the idea with the rep, it sounds like most would sacrifice a couple bucks to be able to concentrate more on his or her craft, but why isn't this more common? It's been said by photographers on this thread that a high ranked website can bring more leads, why not outsource that? It's said that blogs/facebook/social media can prove a client that you're "in the game," so why not outsource that? Why not use leverage to help your follow-ups by sending cards/small gifts to potential clients that are considering your services? This can all be automated, yet still add a personal touch. If all these things help free you up to do more creative things, isn't that worth the money? Or is sacrificing any profits that can be done yourself considered bad business?</p>

<p>If the business side of things is more important that the creative side, why isn't it done like other businesses who leverage and become more efficient? Isn't that educating yourself about marketing first? Learning that others may be able to help you do it better for cheaper? Find your value per hour in a dollar amount and I bet there's a more efficient and cost effective way to do a lot of the tasks you currently do... opening yourself up to diversifying, which sounds like a great idea to me, Marc</p>

<p> </p>

<p>That's a good point Dave that didn't occur to me. Tattoos you can photograph on someone and that picture belongs to the individual. Don't photographers hold certain rights to his or her photos? This would make a derogatory public display of them without permission tough without their consent. Maybe I'm mistaken though.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I do not believe that just because particular monies are traveling down any particular chute, that profiting “off of” anyone or anything, on the premise that any particular monies are going “somewhere”, is an appropriate business model which then should be applied universally.<br />If one’s business premise is High Quality Product and (perhaps moreover) Exceptional Service, then ALL Associations are integral and should be most closely scrutinized. - W.W.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Anyone else care to comment on this statement?</p>

<p><br /><br />Andrew, thanks for joining in. The paid ads comment was based on the one opinion I pulled from (said, in part, to stir the pot), but seemed to be backed by some of the people here. I have no doubt that it's a solid investment for you. Like most marketing, if you can master the technique, you can make it work for you.</p>

<p>Has anyone else had any luck with Adwords or any other paid ads and have an ROI they can share?</p>

<p><br />My thoughts on wordpress is that it's popular with developers and other internet marketers, which means that there is a lot of innovation going on with it that other platforms may not have or see for a while, while at the same time everyone knows it. If you launch a site and say, "I wish I had a plugin that did ___," I like wordpress's odds for having it already in existence or being able to create it very cheaply.</p>

<p>To comment on product creation really quickly... simply put, it's easier than most people think. Anything you guys are just screaming to have that you don't see in existence that would make your lives easier? Seriously, chime in.</p>

<p><br />Marc, I was glad to hear that there is in fact a USP that doesn't relate to price. For a while I was starting to think that was the only other direction one could head. I think anything that makes a bride feel just a little more special than the last person she talked to is a great USP.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>What many individual photographers really need is a rain maker. - Marc</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, what if we flip things around. Rather than becoming a brokerage and farming off work, has anyone ever tried setting up an affiliate program, where people filter them work for a fee? And I'm not talking about studios (which I'm sure you all have tried), I'm talking people who know the internet and can maintain all of your internet responsibilities on a commission basis. I know sites like commission junction and others have programs where companies join and offer say $100 for any paying lead. Here an army of marketers can promote your studio (granted if you're concerned with reputable associations, this may not appeal to you) in any light you feel necessary.</p>

<p>Has anyone thought to try this?</p>

<p>While $100 isn't much to sacrifice to a photographer with a $2500 gig, setting up a campaign for wedding photography in a given area is an easy couple hours of work for a marketer. The marketer would undoubtedly be able to open up avenues that are too time consuming or out of the comfort level of a photographer via the internet. If that paid off with $100 several times a year to the marketer, and several more $2500 gigs for the photographer, it probably would be worth the effort on both parts. Just a thought.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>BUT had all the right skills and guts required to make business happen like crazy.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Marc, you left out the juiciest part, what are those "right skills and guts" required to make this happen?</p>

<p>Peter, I just checked out Bella. I can see why they've failed. Their price point is way too high for what they are offering (not enough of a perceived value by the visitor for the cost), and there isn't any unique selling position. They sacrifice personal touch for web convenience, which in wedding photography seems to be a terrible trade off.<br>

<br />This talk of unique selling position reminded me of an old marketing lesson...</p>

<p>Why people don't buy (on the internet):<br /><br />1. They don't know you, who you are, why they should listen to you or why you're any different then the next guy<br />2. They don't understand the product you're selling, what it can do for them, and why they should buy it<br />3. They don't want what you're selling more then what they have to give up to get it (cost, email address, etc)<br />4. The don't believe you</p>

<p>Clearly #3 is the main point here. Bride's aren't really seeing value in paying an extra 1 - 2k for a product they feel the can get for less. So if the price point is as low as you're willing to go, how do you increase the value? How do you take a bride who's already overbudget and convince her that you are worth paying the extra 1 - 2k for?</p>

<p>One thing I can think of is start creating a culture where bad wedding photos aren't acceptable. If anyone wants to make some money as a side project, start a website called "ugly wedding photos." Seriously, these kind of sites blow up. "Ugliest Tattoos" averaged 175k viewers a month last year. Sell ad space on your site and you can easily make an couple of thousand dollars a month on it. It'll take a little effort maintaining it, but still the opportunity is there.<br /><br />But, the main point of this is the site doesn't exist already. It does in the tattoo world. The point isn't to make fun of an individual artist, but rather create a balance where the bad is known as much as the good. It's given the good artists a platform to stand on and say, you don't want to be one of those people on that site (no, they don't actually say that out loud).</p>

<p>In the wedding photography world, there is no bad. No awareness what-so-ever that a bride can't pay the littlest amount and come home happy afterwards. No worry that if you go too cheap, you might end up regretting it. It may be just me, but I think that could be an area that can help change the culture. <br /><br /></p>

<blockquote>

<p>"I do not believe that profiting “off of” anyone or anything on the premise that the money is going “somewhere”, is an appropraite business model, to be applied universally." - WW</p>

</blockquote>

<p>William, I hate to break it to you, but this is the current way business being done on the internet. It's called affiliate sales, and it represents billions (yes, billions with a B) of dollars of sales every year. It's pointing people towards a solution. What is surprising to me is that it hasn't reached the photography niche to a strong degree. But I assure you, it is the way things are being done right now online. </p>

<p>It's reached the Wedding band niche. I know because I went to "gig masters" to find a band. There you find a list of all the bands in the area, and they write back to let you know who's available, essentially brokering a deal with you. After being contacted by individual band managers, most band managers follow up with me via email and some phone calls, and let me know that if this band doesn't exactly fit my wants, needs and desires, let me know why and he or she will find one that does. Again, it's the concept of being a broker, and it's the philosophy of I might not be the right answer for you, but let me point you towards the person/product that is. </p>

<p>I agree with...</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"then all Associations, are integral and should be most closely scrutinized." </p>

</blockquote>

<p>which is why it important to be associated with the right people. Your reputation will definitely be judged based on who you refer. But out of each bride that uses a photographer, most will find the perfect one for them. And that's what really matters, as far as reputation, associating yourself with someone that the customer finds perfect for her. If you know a photographer doesn't have as good of an eye as you, isn't as good editing and touching up the photos, etc, but comes in at a price point that the bride wants (who you get the sense wont know the difference anyway and just cares about price), as long as you disclaim the differences to the bride so she knows what she's walking into, that's not a negative association. That's being a good consultant. </p>

<p>Look at it from a 'conceptional selling' approach for a second. This applies anytime you have a person looking for any product or service. It's a great method for getting in touch with your customer. I'll apply it here to wedding photography. </p>

<p>First ask questions to understand where the customer is coming from. In this case, what a person's knows already, and what her wants and needs are for a photographer (something most do right now). Next, identify possible photographer options for that person. Not specific names of people, but types of photographers. What can they expect from a craigslist photographer, a friend photographer, a new photographer, a high end photographer, an experienced middle price photographer. Don't try to sell her anything, and don't pretend that the lowly craigslist and amateur photographers don't exist! Be accurate and she'll respect you for it.</p>

<p>Let her know price averages, what they will get for their dollar, and if they could save money by not having things like a second shooter. This step is important to show that there are no smoke and mirrors, it's really clear that the choices she makes relates to this kind of end product. Once all the paths are understood, the third step is to have her decide on the path that's right for her, even if it isn't you. If you walk someone through this process and feel you've accurately guided her to a decision that is the best for her, it's only fair to be compensated for it. </p>

<p>Nadine, it's not necessarily as much "taking a cut" as it is consulting the customer to the correct choice for them when you do things this way. When you only represent one choice or option, you have no choice but to sell yourself as the only and best option for her. Anything else is direct competition. But when you open up and embrace that any decision a bride makes is a right decision for her (assuming she likes the end product), then you can open yourself up to compensating yourself for helping with this. </p>

<p>I think most photographers here feel like bride's make a lot of wrong choices. But a lot of bride's feel they make the perfect choice (at the time anyway), why not help them with this?</p>

<p>And for the comment</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"I wonder how many of the $995’ers would sit for hours, fixing Moire, if need be - just as one example."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>how many bride's know what that is, and are making decisions based on that? It isn't a selling point if the customer doesn't see enough value in it to affect their decision making process. And when it's all said and done, that's just another amateur with a gig. Maybe the bridge regrets it later, but amateur has long spent that money. </p>

<p>Another thing I'm wondering is how many brides get back their photos and say, "I wish I had used a better photographer" to the point where they warn or tell others? And how many just accept whatever get back as being fine, or it was what it was. I imagine it's the latter, and it's why wedding photography is trending cheaper and cheaper, because so many were able to use average photographers and be ok with the results. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>"I do know that most professionals realize that one cannot make ends meet shooting <strong>all day</strong> with two shooters and doing all the file processing for $995." - Nadine</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Unfortunately wedding photography today features people trying to make ends meet and people who don't. You literally have to compete against an army of people who don't need to survive off of the income, but just enjoy the extra few bucks they make off of it. It really changes the industry when this happens. A similar thing happened with the music composition industry. Let me share an example.</p>

<p>At my old company, we had a music composition department that offered custom music for tv and commercials that cost thousands of dollars per track (and deals for music packages that I imagine ran up into the 250k range). It was a solid industry. Then technology shifted. Suddenly any high school kid sitting in his basement could use cheap, but near professional samples (meaning no live musicians) and programs and throw tracks together that will get him reasonably close to what could be done in a music studio. </p>

<p>I could sit here and tell you all the ways that our music studio did things better and more professional, but chances are to the average producer looking for music for their tv show or commercial, all they see is the price tag compared to what they think is a relatively good track. What happened was the whole industry had to shift and adapt it's business model to figure out how to compete with this new threat. Now instead of turning up it's nose at the kid in his basement making music, the company would buy tunes off of these kids and remix and remaster them, and use them to grow it's own library so that producers still come to them for tracks, instead of the young kids. And while it still does sit on shaky ground as a long term business, it's found a way to benefit off of the change. </p>

<p>This happens all the time. As nice as it would be to have a secure, unchanging business, in today's world it doesn't exist. Changes are coming, the question is what are they and how do you adapt to benefit from them?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I was referring to someone like this...</p>

<p>I just pulled this off of craigslist (it was the 4th option (out of over 50 for today alone) when I searched for "Wedding Photographer") I'll refrain from putting the person's name in case you are on this forum, this is just for discussion purposes.</p>

 

<h2>Wedding Photography - $995</h2>

Includes... All day coverage package with 2 photographers (one is related to the first shooter) & edited photos on DVD.

 

It appears from the person's website that they've shot at least 20 weddings. That's someone I consider a professional shooter operating at a lower price point.

 

 

<p>WV - unrelated. I really didn't think anything I asked here would alter anything in my personal situation, and really it didn't change anything. Fire's over now. </p>

<p>Nadine, what about someone who operates as a professional, but at a cheaper price point? The point would be to keep the work in your sphere of association, but if said person is just an acquaintance and not necessarily a partner it may be less of a risk to your reputation. The idea is to control where the money goes, because it is going somewhere, and profit off of it. </p>

<p>Ok, a couple of responses to what's been said earlier today.</p>

<p>First, although it pains me to write this, here was my fiance's comment when I asked if she was going to ask if our photographer carried insurance (even after I educated her briefly about it).</p>

<p>"No normal person would think to ask those things. I never even heard of photography insurance."</p>

<p>I'm wondering if there shouldn't be more "fear marketing" being done with wedding photography. I mean, it happens in a lot of niches, where the price drops but there's no worry that quality or anything else drops. Sometimes it takes a little fear to get someone realizing what they are actually missing for the price difference. </p>

<p>From a marketing perspective you'll have two headlines like, "5 things that lead to a great wedding photographer experience" and "5 things that a photographer will do to ruin your wedding" and have the latter overwhelmingly get the majority of views. I mean any bride just worried about price doesn't appear to be thinking that anything could go wrong if she used the cheapest option out there. Maybe it doesn't change a thing, but I'd be interested in seeing if anything changed in a bride's mind if they had some fear struck in them. Could be as simple as emailing out a little video or guide that listed what happens if you don't ask this question or if your photographer doesn't have insurance, or a key moment is missed because the photographer wasn't experienced enough to catch it. Chances are it wouldn't change a thing, but still would be interesting. </p>

<p>(Btw, Peter, she has relaxed now, and is just clarifying a few things now via email with the photographer. She saw that printing rights were included on the photographer's website, so definitely not thinking about dropping her, just wants to make sure she's not missing out on anything she thought was automatically included)</p>

<p>The other thing I wanted to touch on by Marc, was "It should be noted that getting a lot of hits on a website is no indicator of anything ... " While this is 100% true, the potential is so much greater for business if you have traffic like that, if you are the first person that's contacted. There's a concept that's put to practice by experience marketers that simply is, get paid when your visitor comes to your site, and get paid when they leave. This pretty much means that you want to be positioned to make money regardless of what the customer chooses to do. Buy from my site, great, I get paid. Not interested in what I have to offer, great, here are my biggest competitors. I'll make it really easy for you to go check them out, and I really hope you buy, because I make a profit off of it as well, and I already know you didn't want what I had to offer.</p>

<p>With all these craigslist shooters and amateur photographers, has anyone ever thought of reaching out to them and contracting work to them? I know it sounds crazy and you never want to lose business, but what if you took some of the young ones, the ones that don't quite know the industry, and say I'll shuffle you work and provide some professional guidance in return for a cut of your profits. It's kind of win-win, as they will be learning from you, and you'll be making money you wouldn't normally have seen anyway. </p>

<p>Even if they are really good at it and decide to step it up and go on their own, chances are they move out of the cheap photographer bracket, into the market that makes it tough for them to survive anyway. While you just find the next newbie coming up to profit off of. If you could perfect this technique, you could have a team of the craigslist shooters and uncle bobs that would be earning you money while you're out shooting your own weddings. </p>

<p>This way, you'll never be undercut. The lowest market is the one that's gaining the most steam right now, and you'll pretty much own it (other then a friend shooting for free). Again, while it's never good to lose money and paid gigs, if someone wanted the work for less than half price of what you were offering, wouldn't it be a good idea to say, I have this person as an option in that price range. Or even better, I have 5 people who can work for that price (which will almost guarantee you could take any gig), which one works for you. Book the gig yourself and contract the gig out, make a couple hundred off of it for not working at all. Tell the youngster you have a gig for them, and hook them up with your knowledge and experience, than, go over the shots afterwards as a follow up and teach them. If they want out and want to do it on their own, great, find the next youngster coming along on craigslist.</p>

<p>It's being more of a broker than a photographer, but this just may be the way things are evolving. It definitely seems like craigslist shooters are here to stay, and it sounds like from your responses that they are getting gigs and becoming a substantial part of the market. <strong>Ask yourselves how you can profit off of it instead of fighting it</strong>. I know the whole thing is frustrating and you probably hate acknowledging that a craigslist shooter can possibly do what you do, but it's a matter of who can evolve. They want something that you have, which is experience and expertise in the field, especially if you can give them gigs. </p>

<p>If you're smooth, you could even work it into a paid mentorship program. </p>

<p>Thoughts anyone? </p>

<p> </p>

<p>I'd like to add that she is totally willing to pay more for the album and printing rights than the $2500 they agreed upon.</p>

<p>OK, Here's the pricing package for our wedding shoot. I've been talking to my fiance about this stuff and she's kind of freaking out now. She was starting to doubt if she really wants to use this person, and now with all these questions I've been asking her from you guys, she's getting really nervous. She really wants to know what questions she should be asking right now. She's interested in getting the printing rights to her photos (I'm not sure what that means) as well as an actual album. She hasn't talked to the photographer about insurance or equipment as far as I know. Here's the incovice: </p>

<p>WEDDING PACKAGE ~ $2500.00 <br>

4 to 8 hours <br>

Engagement session <br>

2 shooters with an assistant <br>

Covers up to 8 hours of shooting <br>

A custom beautiful designed DVD with all edited images <br>

Online gallery to share with family & friends </p>

 

 

She's drafting an email now to the photographer, what should she be asking? I appreciate the help guys! I've been going through the posts and will comment back on a few things in a minute.

 

Oh, and Peter, i asked her, and the photographer was booked after the flowers and after the cake. I feel like we let you guys down!

<p>Thanks for chiming in Peter, you had some great stuff to say. (I was wondering why my posts didn't quite space out like everyone else's. Thanks for filling in the new guy!).</p>

<p>From what I've seen, you've laid out the best online marketing plan, and have the results to back up your efforts. Thanks for sharing that with us. When you mentioned that you're ranking for google images (which gets more hits than you would think. I have a tattoo site that gets about 1200 hits a day just through image traffic alone), it reminded me of a couple sites my fiance mentioned. "Style me pretty" and "the knot" are both sites she would look through with the full intent of clicking on wedding pictures she liked, and finding out who took them. I don't know how popular a technique this really is, but it's another avenue to consider if you're looking for another avenue. </p>

<p>You also seemed to really hit the nail on the head with the facebook and blog stuff. Not only do you understand it and execute it, but you see great results from it. Glad to see the success Peter!</p>

<p>As far as the budget, I just assumed it changed because literally everything we looked at for the wedding ended up costing more than what we had budgeted for. Funny how that works. I'll try and see what the invoice listed as far as items, but her being the bride, she simply found the person she wanted and forwarded the invoice to her mom. I'll see if I can't track that down and see exactly what was included. I could be mistaken, but I believe the price comes with an album and even an assistant (2nd shooter), has she arrives 3 hours before the ceremony and goes through the reception. I'll try to confirm all of that though, and if the price held at $2500. </p>

<p>Marc, sorry to say you got a tough break with the market you're in. It's a shame, you sound like a consummate professional trying to attract customers that don't appreciate what you do. Have you ever tried aiming your marketing towards the higher end crowd? I mean, if you used qualifiers like "high end" or whatever else suites your business in your ads, you might not have to deal with all the negative responses from people who can't see the quality in what you do. </p>

<p>I've heard from many professionals in the post production world (yes, I'll disclaim that this is a completely different world than photography) that once they raised their prices well past what the normal was for their market, their freelance business exploded with business. It's about perceived value, and in your case it sounds like you have the actual value to back it up. Just a thought. </p>

<p>Dave, you're almost making this too easy now. Check the category of the forum we're in (page one of this thread, right hand side). It's "Marketing." Yes, we are having a marketing discussion in the category called, "Marketing." Seems pretty logical to me. Oh and get this, it's the fourth largest category in this forum. Yep, fourth... largest... out of... 30 categories. Sounds like other people like talking about it too. </p>

<p>Anyway, seriously, best of luck Dave in your photography business, and whatever you decide to do next.</p>

<p>And for the rest of you, if you don't mind, another question while I still have some brilliant minds chiming in. Has anyone had any success with using video to promote their business? It seems like a logical fit, but one that doesn't quite provide the results that would be expected. Anyone have any experience with this? </p>

<p>I think it's called "Reputation Management". I don't know much about it but it sounds like it could help.</p>

<p>Since it seems like there's some interest in hearing what the bride's have to say, let me see if I can't talk to a few more. I'll try to ask them Marc's questions, anything else you guys are interested in asking?</p>

<p>Thanks to those who have chosen to entertain me in this discussion...<br>

Marc, to answer some of your questions, my fiance informed me that she had an initial budget of $2500, which she thought put her in the low side of things for the Birminghan market, and explored options of those who had prices listed on his or her website. She didn't do an email blast, but contacted the first person on her list that had the style and professionalism she was looking for. Since we don't live close to Alabama, she couldn't meet in person. After the date not lining up for the photographer that was her first and second choice, she ended up connecting via facebook with her third choice, and saw she had a mutual friend who had used her, which weighed heavily in her final decision, after she established that this person met her other criteria.<br>

Interesting to note Marc that the value of "equipment and insurance" didn't really play into the decision at all. I'm wondering if this is a lack of education of the general public about these topics. It's an effective way to separating yourself from some if you can prove to them these things matter. In the case of my fiance, it didn't. I can't imagine this being a good thing to not be aware of, but we didn't see a lot of photographers making it an issue (or as big of an issue as it probably needs to be). What's your experience with people's knowledge of them? Do you have to educate them on what to look for? All she cared about was if the final product met her artistic and professional needs within a price she had hoped for. Maybe it's a way of finding a niche for yourself, seeing how you'd want to stay away from people who aren't educated on this matter. Or maybe not, what are your thoughts?<br>

David, marketing guys pretty much over-estimate the value of online marketing for just about everyone, not just local studios. It's just what we do! But local studios aren't necessarily the only target market, as it seems more and more the amateur photographers see wedding photography as their in to some side income. I've personally known 3 people who's weddings were shot by amateurs looking to break into the field. Great point about the out-of-town clientele using more online methods to find someone though, I hadn't thought of that. <br>

Also, while WOM and personal/business recommendations feeding so much of the leads for established, successful studios, I wonder if that will be the trend in the future as well. I know I check pretty much any city's craigslist postings and see dozens if not hundreds of wedding photographers looking for business. (Which btw if I was marketing to this field would be the first place I would go to find clients for myself). I'm sure craigslist has worked for some, as most people don't keep doing things that don't work for them, which means it is finding them business leads. Are they good leads? Chances are no. But if you're trying to get more business, it is a free way of doing so.<br>

I wonder what percentage of wedding photographers are booked by a bride or mother of the bride? and how much does social media feeds into this decision? As time goes on and the younger generations who grew up with facebook and twitter start making decisions, how much of their social proof relies with the online world. While it seems a strong personal recommendation is pretty much gold in the photography world, it's interesting to see if where people find and verify that recommendation trends towards the online world like other fields have been going.<br>

Everyone has their marketing plans and systems that work for them now, but if you don't evolve, you might not be around forever. I'm in the post production audio field. Back in the day, TV audio was something only a handful of people could do, due to expensive equipment and access to clients. Now anyone can throw up something in their basement for barely any cost and do a quality of work that earn them gigs. Some places stayed the course, stuck to their guns, evolved some and are still around today. Most aren't though, having been phased out by a younger generation doing things easier faster cheaper. Just wondering if the same thing is happening to the wedding photography world. I mean, like most of you, I hold the image of myself as a professional in what I do, and put my work up against any person anywhere, LA, NY. But that doesn't mean I'll stay in business if they don't see my value vs cost (as Marc was saying). So as more amateurs sneak into the market because the can cheaper, how does that change the market for wedding photographers?<br>

And Mr. Dave Gardner, did you not read where I wrote "Take a lot of the notes I've suggested with a grain of salt though, this is just one person giving their comments." I even put that in it's own paragraph so people wouldn't miss it. In case you forgot, this is a FORUM, defined as "a public meeting place for open discussion", and I called myself a marketing guy, not a marketing expert as to purposely not threaten anyone here. I'm trying to say you don't know how to do your job or I know more then you do about finding clients. If you read what I wrote, you would obviously know that I don't know this field, but wanted to offer up some thoughts from someone outside of it to see what people say. It's based on a marketer's line of thinking, not a photographers so it shows you a different side of things. Yes, it's based on one person's opinions, but it's all I had at the time, and it represents $3000 to someone in your field. If you want to grow as a professional, you'll take data like this and use it. And if you don't, well keep doing what you're doing, I really don't care. No need to get all worked up about it though, you're not the only one on this forum. Skip the post if you're not into it!</p>

 

<p>First, let me disclaim to you, I'm a marketing guy. <br>

But, I'm a marketing guy who recently got engaged and needed a photographer for my wedding. <br>

Since my fiance was calling the shots for who to use, I let her pick. But then I sat her down and figured out why she decided to use who she used, went through all the steps she used in picking that person, and why she didn't go with others. <br>

The results will surprise a lot of you.<br>

It made me think though, that there are a lot of wedding photographers out there who are amazing at shooting weddings, but don't really know how to put themselves in front of the right people, the people that need photographers for their wedding. <br>

Why is this? Well surprisingly, it's simply that a lot of photographers don't really take the time to know their potential client, and how they go about searching for a wedding photographer on the internet. <br>

To help you, let me post a conversation I had with my fiance, and point out some specific marketing things that anyone can do to help themselves get found. <br>

Here's a little of what I found out through talking to her...<br>

<br />First, when my fiance walked me through how she found our photographer, she googled "Birmingham Wedding Photographer". This is what 95% of people do when looking for a photographer, they google "Wedding Photographer" and the city. While there are some websites that spend time and money trying to rank for the term "Wedding Photographer Birmingham", the first 7 results are called "Google Places" results. These are free results that people get for registering their business through google. Definitely do this. You don't even need to have a website for these. And all of these are ranked higher then the people spending money ranking their websites! Since they're first, her eyes naturally go to these first. <br />Next I asked her what do you look for first. Well, she ignores the ads (don't waste your money if you don't have it), and first looks for the photography sites that have a name listed in the title, and clicks on their sites first. That's her first criteria, selecting a site that has a full name. So if you have a site called birmingham wedding photographer, she wont even give your site a click. <br />Once she opens a site, if the site feels old or cheesy, she's out. Gone, no looking back. This is why I recommend word-press for your site, with almost no effort you can find a new look for your site and update it, and never miss out because you're site looks dated. If she likes the site design, she checks out the main photo posted on the site. If she doesn't like that, she's out. Make that photo count people! It sounds harsh, but make that a picture of an attractive person. It really makes a difference!<br />Next, she looks for recent albums. It's all about what have you done lately, and how good it is. The latest trend is no "posed" shots (in her mind it's the latest trend anyway), so she's looking for the artsy, interesting shots. If the last wedding taken has all cheesy posed shots, she's out. <br />She will check facebook fan pages for photographers she likes, so if you're posting a recent wedding shoot there, keep doing it, it's working! Same with twitter (although not a often). Blogs are a huge plus, because it's an easy way of saying look what I've done lately. Social media is great for photographers. Websites matter in certain ways, just don't let it hurt your business. <br>

<br />Take a lot of the notes I've suggested with a grain of salt though, this is just one person giving their comments. But it's one person that got a nice paying wedding gig from this.</p>

<p><br /><strong>Ok, now I need some help!</strong> I want to get your thoughts on all of this. Please post back your feedback. Let me know how things go from your perspective. I mean marketing is not black and white, so little variables change everything, so I know everyone has different experiences, let's hear some!</p>

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<p>I find this subject pretty fascinating. I'm starting a new post on a different thread about it, but thought I'd comment here as well. <br>

First, I'm a marketing guy, who recently got engaged and needed a photographer for my wedding. Since my fiance was calling the shots for who to use, I let her pick. But then I sat her down and figured out why she decided to use who she used, went through all the steps she used in picking that person, and why she didn't go with others. <br>

The results will surprise a lot of you.<br>

Not only that, I can't believe how many professional wedding photographers don't know a thing about marketing! Even the ones who are tops at their craft, still miss out on great leads because they aren't getting in front of the right people. <br>

Here's a little of what I found out through talking to her...<br>

For example, when my fiance walked me through how she found our photographer, she googled "Birmingham Wedding Photographer". This is what 95% of people do when looking for a photographer, they google "Wedding Photographer" and the city. While there are some websites that spend time and money trying to rank for the term "Wedding Photographer Birmingham", the first 7 results are called "Google Places" results. These are free results that people get for registering their business through google. Definitely do this. You don't even need to have a website for these. And all of these are ranked higher then the people spending money ranking their websites! Since they're first, her eyes naturally go to these first. <br>

Next I asked her what do you look for first. Well, she ignores the ads (don't waste your money if you don't have it), and first looks for the photography sites that have a name listed in the title, and clicks on their sites first. That's her first criteria, selecting a site that has a full name. So if you have a site called birmingham wedding photographer, she wont even give your site a click. <br>

Once she opens a site, if the site feels old or cheesy, she's out. Gone, no looking back. This is why I recommend word-press for your site, with almost no effort you can find a new look for your site and update it, and never miss out because you're site looks dated. If she likes the site design, she checks out the main photo posted on the site. If she doesn't like that, she's out. Make that photo count people! It sounds harsh, but make that a picture of an attractive person. It really makes a difference!<br>

Next, she looks for recent albums. It's all about what have you done lately, and how good it is. The latest trend is no "posed" shots (in her mind it's the latest trend anyway), so she's looking for the artsy, interesting shots. If the last wedding taken has all cheesy posed shots, she's out. <br>

She will check facebook fan pages for photographers she likes, so if you're posting a recent wedding shoot there, keep doing it, it's working! Same with twitter (although not a often). Blogs are a huge plus, because it's an easy way of saying look what I've done lately. Social media is great for photographers. Websites matter in certain ways, just don't let it hurt your business. <br>

Ok, so take a lot of the notes I've suggested with a grain of salt though, this is just one person giving their comments. But it's one person that got a nice paying wedding gig from this.<br>

I've decided to talk to more people about this subject now, and see how consistent this information is. Feel free to check out my other post (when I get around to putting it up) where I'll go into more detail with this stuff. I'll probably even come up with a whole marketing strategy that I can give to anyone interested. Well see how things go.<br>

Hope it helps!</p>

 

<p>Wow, didn't realize that last post was so long, sorry about that!</p>

<p>Have you ever tried setting up a word-press site on your hostgator hosting? <br>

If you can get that working, it's probably the cheapest and the most flexible. I've worked on many websites, and at this point, I say steer clear from html. Word-press makes things so easy, and is completely customizable.<br>

Google "Free wordpress photography themes" and find some good ones that do everything behnace and cargo collective do. Granted you're the price they charge is pretty cheap, but if you're looking to save money, get a $7.96 hostgator "Baby Plan" hosting package, and host as many sites as you want. Since you have unlimited domains, you can even host your friend's sites for them, charge them a couple bucks if they're not good friends!</p>

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