benstanley

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<p>So, when I switch to "AV" mode, and change my Fstop to an 8.0, even with a flash (speedlite 580 exii), the time is still so long that the shot blurs.</p>

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<p>Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but why are you using f/8 in particular? If you want to avoid blur use a larger aperture that lets more light in, this means using, for example, an aperture of more like f/2.8 or f/4. f/8 is a smaller aperture that lets in <em>less </em>light, not more. Obviously your depth of field will be less but depends if that matters or not for your situation.</p>

<p>f/8 is really going to cut down your flash range too, what external flash unit are you using?</p>

<p>Also I wouldn't really be worried about noise from a 5dmii at iso1000?</p>

<p>Can you do one using liveview as well?</p>

<p>I have heard there are more problems with this kind of thing with Sigma lenses, but I don't know if its true or not. Apparently its a bit of a lottery - its either good or it isn't.</p>

<p>Can you try repeating the test but using Liveview? Make sure liveview focus uses its normal contrast detection AF, not "quick focus" which uses the phase detection autofocus. You'll know its using contrast af if you hear/see the lens narrowing down to the correct focus with a bunch of trial&error focus movements.</p>

<p>There are 2 types of autofocus in most modern digital SLRs, they use different bits of hardware/software. Basically contrast detection af is what you normally use in liveview, it is also the way most compact cameras work - it is slow but is not affected (I don't believe) by any calibration issues. Whereas phase detection autofocus (which is faster) can be affected by your lens or camera having calibration issues.</p>

<p>What is lighting the background? If the carpets are coming out the right colour then whatever is lighting your background has a different colour temperature to the lights you are using for the carpet.<br>

Also I think you can get some colour shifts when using certain shutter speeds that are related to the power supply frequency (50 or 60hz).</p>

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<p>The reason that AV is not normally desired is because it can effect the focus, distance, one normally wants to keep the subject focused.</p>

 

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<p>Your reasoning is correct but your conclusion is wrong :) Better to use Av and allow AEB to affect the shutter speed. That way the aperture setting stays constant so DOF does not change with the brackets. Using Tv will result in aperture changes.</p>

<p>You don't have a flash enabled too do you? In my experience when you turn a flash on, AEB will be disabled on the next half-press of the shutter button.</p>

<p>The problem with something like an sx30 is you can't really do much once you start to outgrow it, its a single unit. Whereas with an SLR you can interchange lenses, bodies, and flashes if you get that far. It depends on how much size and cost matters to you as an SLR will be a bit larger and cost a few more dollars. An SLR will generally give you better pictures than the SX30 (from the 10 seconds I looked into it, the first review I saw said it was "soft" (the pictures aren't that sharp) and "noisy" (there is lots of graininess to the pictures.<br>

If I was in your situation and thinking I would want to learn something about it, experiment, and do more than just point and shoot, I would suggest going with an entry level SLR (I would personally stick with Canon or Nikon too but I'll probably get shot down for saying that!) and see where you go from there. If you just want everything to be automatic and you're unlikely to want to delve too deeply, then I'd get a small point and shoot.</p>

<p>The models you are looking at in the Canon range would be something like the EOS 1000D / 1100D, or 550D/600D (depending on what country you are in, the model names might be different). There are equivalents in the Nikon range and the best way to choose would be to go to a shop, hold them, play with them, and pick the one that feels the best and that you "get". In my experience, the salesmen in many shops talk a lot of rubbish so be wary :) Some will be good though...</p>

<p>Its a bit hard to answer this straight off because you mention you want an SLR but then say the cameras you are looking at are the SX30 and coolpix, which are not SLR cameras. I'm not sure if you have your terminology mixed up, or you want to know if an SLR would serve you better than a compact camera - you might just want to clarify what you you really are looking for.</p>

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<p>Is it okay to feel a little overwhelmed with all the technical terms? I suppose it all comes together with practice.</p>

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<p>Yes that's ok but don't let it bother you too much. I find flash is the hardest bit to really "get". In the end having a good eye for light and being creative is more important (and harder for some people) than the technical side. At least that's the way I feel, I wish I had more of an eye...</p>

<p>Try practicing a lot and when something isn't working out come on here and ask away, there are heaps of very helpful people on here.</p>

<p>A technical note for you though - I don't think you can do auto exposure bracketing with the flash turned on. You'll have to do it yourself. Its only when you attach a 580ex you can do flash exposure bracketing (which is still not the same as auto exposure bracketing).</p>

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<p>once a 24-70/2.8 broken in half after it (along w/ the 5D+BG+550ex) hit concrete from 7' after the bench I was standing on shifted (aka flipped) during a ceremony.</p>

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<p>That sounds like an entry for the "embarrassing moments" thread that (I think) Nadine started in the wedding forum :) Glad you got back up again but I bet it wasn't classed as being unobtrusive!</p>

<p>Hi WW.<br>

You calculated the range as ~8ft for max power. Is 100% power at 8ft called "fill" though? I think I'm permanently confused by the definition of fill!! :) By fill are we talking about a face completely backlit (sunlight from behind the subject) in which case the flash becomes more the key light rather than fill ..... or a face half in sunlight half in shadow with the shadow needing bringing up (I'm presuming the former cos I don't see how the latter can be done without a *lot* of flash power if its sunny, (and underexposing ambient as well so the sunlit side isn't blown?)). If the former, the subject's face will be maybe 2-3 stops under ambient, so the "fill" is actually the key light in that shot right?<br>

I am not doubting you just wanting to understand better, struggling with this stuff.<br>

By the way, HSS seems to cost a lot more than 30%, based on when I was playing around with it. My 430exii and hired 580exii would drop the max range by 2/3rds the moment I went from 1/250th to 1/500th. Ie. If the max range on the flash was showing as 9 meters at 1/250th, it would drop to 3 meters at 1/500th, and get even worse the faster the shutter speed. And it really did drop a lot based on a couple of test shots. At 1/500th, half the flash output will hit the shutter blades, and I guess there are other inefficiencies from making the flash pulse the output rather than a single big "pop".</p>

<p>Cheers!</p>

<p>No not catholic. But lots of youth in the congregation although I haven't actually seen the mirror ball being used :)</p>

<p>Well I thought I should make a final report on how it went..................</p>

<ul>

<li>The shots I practiced came off pretty well, got some decent ones of the processional and recessional and ceremony.</li>

<li>The groups shots are fine but nothing amazing but I guess that's all you can really expect. We had about 10-20 seconds to re-pose/move everybody before needing to move on (time was running super short). Things were so late I had late afternoon open shade for the groups so they were simple enough to fill in with flash. Candid shots and ones like cake cutting etc were fine. Easier with white ceilings to bounce although my bounce technique still needs work.</li>

<li>Cake shots aren't bad, I prefer subjects that don't move, and don't care how long you take :)</li>

<li>I feel I did ok given my level of experience on those shots.</li>

<li>But I could have done fair bit better on the "formals" (which was just b&g). We started way behind schedule and the b&g were ready to finish not long in and I kind of just forgot my plans at that point. Really disappointed in myself. There's enough that are "fine" but I think I fell short of what I was capable of at the time. I don't mind not equaling a pro result because I can't expect that, but when I don't achieve my *own* best it doesn't make me that pleased with myself.</li>

<li>I don't get what happened at one point, I couldn't get one camera to fire, it had back button focus, so focus wasn't an issue, the flash was charged and ready, the buffer was empty ... but for about 10 seconds I had nothing. Starting working again without me changing anything.</li>

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<p>Anyway thanks very much for all the advice hopefully some other hopefuls will learn something from some of the posts too.</p>

 

<p>Funny story- Couldn't figure why in a couple of my practice shots at the church there were small bright patches all over the place that I didn't see when I took the photo.</p>

<p>Any takers? :)</p>

<p>... Disco mirror ball way up on the ceiling I was bouncing off ...</p>

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<p>Take a deep breath.</p>

 

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<p>I cracked up at that - good advice :) Thankyou, thinking of it as 2 "sixes" made it a lot easier conceptually.<br>

Nadine and William providing sage advice as usual. Randall - will be going outside at the right time today :)</p>

 

<p>Why 70mm? Inexperience? :) I "know" I'm "meant" to use a "longer" focal length for group shots to get the proportions all right and though that would mean 70mm. I can easily go to 24 or 35mm...</p>

<p>I'm trying to figure out where to do group shots, and unfortunately haven't been able to have a look at the venue at the correct time of day (could only go earlier), and there are trees etc around. I wish I had the experience to know what the "best" way is... </p>

<p>Alternatives to above are to use shaded greenery as a background (which actually looks like it could be tricky to find), or let the group be lit by sunlight coming at about 30 degrees from their side. (Sun would be quite low in the sky about 15 degrees above the horizon at this time of day according to calculator - about 1 to 1.5 hours before sunset).</p>

<p>Still trying to figure out how to pose groups of up to 14. Don't want to do a straight line, but not sure that using chairs is getting too complicated for me just starting out. Just pack them in with some people partly behind others, some kids in front. Kind of like my own wedding photos by a pro... Or use some wide stairs - which are going to be sunlit by low sun coming in from a bit forward of sideways (about 30 degrees)...</p>

<p>A real wedding photographer would just know in about 2 seconds of looking at it. But I'm not! Nobody has rubbed it in yet, but please don't start... Having said that I've see pro shots from the same location with groups in mixed lighting (about 1/3 of the group in full and deeper shade than the rest of the group...)</p>

<p>I would really appreciate help to calculate what range a 580exii would have in the following situation:</p>

<p>- Open area, group shot of 8 people, in the mid afternoon with sun at their backs (background around EV14). Not sure what their faces would be with sun behind them, EV12 maybe?<br>

- Crop sensor 60d with 70mm lens</p>

<p>Can it be done? Can I get far enough away to fit them in and still have the flash give me enough light? I'm not sure how to calculate all of it - see below.</p>

<p>GN at 105mm is 58(m). At 1/250th and f/8 that's 7.25m. At 1/500th and f5.6 with HSS its... what...?! I guess its better just to stop down instead of use HSS in this situation?</p>

<p>But that's assuming I need all the light from the flash when they're already lit by ambient as well. So if the group was at 7.25m, instead of full power would I need what? 1/2 or 1/4 power to bring up the group to something nice? If half power that would give me about 10m range?</p>

<p>Would it just be better to find a darker [shaded] background?</p>

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<p>The FEC is like the AE lock, the flash sends out a pre-flash to determine the correct flash exposure. You then lock that exposure by pressing the FEC button. You can then move the camera around to recompose your subject and fire away.</p>

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<p><br />I think this is a mixup of terms. There is FEC (compensation) and FEL (lock). What you are talking about there is FEL, not FEC. You can use FEC in combination with FEL however.</p>

<p>Well I've done some testing. I think my camera is half worn out just from test shots...</p>

<p>The processional...<br>

Well its about EV4 or EV5 in the dark bits :( I seem to best prefer under exposing ambient by 1-2 stops and bouncing flash over my shoulder towards the front wall of the church at 45 degrees with +1 FEC, or with the flash head at 75 degrees pointing to my right with a demb card backed off a bit from straight out from the flash to fill in the bride a bit more to avoid racoon eyes. Its suprising how much power I can get out of even a 430ex and the recycle rate was kind of surprising too (eneloops). But maybe at f2.8 and iso800-1600 its not having to put out full power.</p>

<p>I can do 1/125th f/2.8 ISO1600 but feel I can probably drop another 0.5-1 stops of ambient to get the bride & father to stand out slightly - and I'm not sure what to use my light "credits" on. Get a bit more DOF, a higher ss, or drop the iso to 800... I want all 3!!! :) </p>

<p>I have to admit I do have a lot of unsharp photos doing this. Probably 1/3 are good. I have trouble telling if its motion blur, camera shake, or missed focus. I feel its missed focus about half the time though, where I can see sharper things a bit closer in, its driving me nuts. I tried out AI servo AF, but fairly sure that was even worse than using one-shot. I always seem to have this problem on my wife. Maybe she has AF stealth makeup or something... Or maybe because when I'm playing around its often not very bright. I usually put the focussing square on her eye maybe I should be aiming at something else. I could pre focus but that will very much limit me to how many shots I can get and I may miss "the one" with emotion I wanted to catch. I've also found that my DOF is way thinner than what all the calculators tell you when you view the image at 100% on a pc. And I mean waaay thinner. I'm actually hoping my camera is rubbish and the hire one will show me how its meant to perform.... Or maybe its just me. Or maybe I shouldn't view things at 100%. </p>

<p>If you had a reception room with floor to ceiling windows around 3 sides with lots of light coming in, would you say that was actually good quality light? </p>

<p>Group shots...<br>

I scoped out places for group photos and have found my options include<br>

- a set of nice steps, but the sun will be aimed right at them from their side so if its sunny I figure that's not going to be good. If its cloudy it could work with some flash fill though.<br>

- grassed area where I can put the sun at their backs, with quite dark shaded grass & under tree area from tree behind it<br>

- open grassed area (on slight sideways slope?!...) where I can put the sun at their backs, with bright golf course grass&tree type scene behind. Kind of think this is the best one in combo with fill flash and a moderate to long focal length (70mm on crop). If I go beyond 70mm I'll start to lose flash power due to no more flash zooming which may or may not really mattter.</p>

<p>Did find lots of white walls that get a lot of sun that will make for good side fill lighting when walking around doing candids :)</p>

<p>Hats off to you pro's... I guess its second nature to you with experience, but when you're starting out its like learning to drive a car except there's 4 steering wheels and 2 engines.</p>

<p>I've got no doubt though that I'll get the shot or two the b&g want for the mantlepiece. There's no attendants which cuts down the amount of work a lot too. The rest is me trying to better myself...</p>

<p>Well I thought I could hear a fairly regular shutter noise during the exchange of vows, but couldn't see where the photographer was in any of the wide tv shots... either hidden well (I guess it would be planned like that) or I was imagining it.</p>

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<p>True, journalistically there are around 650 photographers covering the various public aspects of the wedding, but there is only one official wedding photographer, with access to Westminster Abbey and the following events.</p>

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<p>That's what I meant to be honest, although on reflection maybe not what the OP meant. If you were the official photographer, I wonder what you'd be doing and what it would be like... There's only 2 billion people watching, you wouldn't want to trip over on something...</p>

<p>Thanks again Nadine you're a big help.<br>

I guess you're right it would be risky to try multiple flashes using ratios so maybe I'll avoid that. If the slave in group B doesn't fire it could be problematic based on my testing last night.<br>

But as far as I can tell under canon's wireless system if I'm using multiple flashes and not using ratios (ie. ratio not set on the 580 master, and the slaves are all in group A), if the slaves don't fire with the master, the master will just have to work harder? Hmm thinking about it, this would only help if I was also bouncing the master, otherwise pretty much all the light hitting the subject would be coming direct from the master as the bounce would be relatively a lot weaker. </p>

<p>Still if I'm bouncing the processional with a 580+demb, and have a slave 580 setup to bounce from the same bit of ceiling as well, its no loss if the slave doesn't fire, right? Or should I only be thinking direct flash (via a demb bounce card) at this point?</p>

<p>ps. Yes I'm going to a rehearsal so will figure out how I will move then.</p>

<p>Or hypothetically if you were, how would you photograph it? :)</p>

<p>Thanks for all the advice in this thread. I'm doing my practice this weekend. I have a 430exII, am hiring a 580exII, and think I might be able to borrow another 580ex. I was thinking about the processional, what about wirelessly slaving a 580 (plus possibly the 430) off the master 580 so I definitely have enough light to bounce and get better recycle times? One 580 would be on the camera with a bounce card to provide fill light to avoid racoon eyes.</p>

<p>Or is it a valid approach to to have an assistant in an aisle seat on the opposite side to you and get them to hold a flash up (maybe with demb bounce card) and use direct on camera + off camera flash, with a Canon 1:1 or 1:2 A:B ratio (equivalent of 2:1 or 3:1 in non-canon talk as far as I can tell).</p>

<p>Yes I am intending to use flash during the processional and recessional.</p>

<p>During the ceremony I wasn't going to but I guess I could add a little bit of fill flash if needed to remove racoon eyes.</p>

<p>But when taking photos say during the exchange of vows:<br>

-I presume I shoot from the opposite side of the person talking, so I get more of the face of the person saying their vow?<br>

-Thinking back to the weddings I've been to the vows don't take very long, and there's not much of a gap between them, I don't think I could move from one side to the other by going around the back of the crowd, I wouldn't have enough time - I would have to cross in front of the front row. I'm not sure I like the idea, but that is done commonly?</p>

<p>I sort of have the same question for my first one coming up (see old thread http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00YEFl?start=0). Although I don't have any particular restrictions in place which in some ways makes it harder! I will, however, choose not to go within 4-5 or so metres of the b&g, not use flash during the ceremony, and not go behind them.<br>

I was considering just sitting tight about 3-4 rows back on an aisle seat because I don't really want to get in the way - I can slide out into the aisle for any shots I need. Or should I be considering moving down the centre aisle and around the sides to get some shots from the sides and maybe some from the back? ie. is there something great that i'm missing by not shifting from there?</p>