allison_thomas
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Posts posted by allison_thomas
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<p>Nadine: Thanks for the thorough explanation of the 120J. I've been reading your other posts about this unit in the forum. I have subsequently discovered that the one for sale has a defunct battery. That's another $65 so this expenditure is adding up. I know if fires on AA's but I'm putting this thing on hold for now. I may just invest the money in a strobe instead. <br /><br />Also… <br /><br />About the group positioning; I just threw a bunch of circles on the drawing. :) Really, I haven't given it much thought just yet. I used the horseshoe pattern of posing because:<br>
<br />a.) I want to keep my DOF as constant from one end of the group to the next. I've shot long straight lines before wide and the people on the ends tend to get a bit fuzzy. In hindsight, I was probably too close and forced to shoot too wide open because of pews I think.<br>
<br />b.) I want to try and keep the group as tight as possible so I don't have to shoot so wide and hopefully keep the barrel distortion to a minimum.<br /><br />I did consider the cross shadowing effect in my option 1 example but was hoping my lights would be high enough to keep them low & behind and also hoping a 580exII on camera with a bounce card would dampen those a bit.<br /><br />Just for grins, I actually tried setting up two 430's, each in their own 45" umbrella and positioned thusly (Option 3 - See attachment):<br /><br />They were up about 9 feet and I played with feathering them outward slightly toward the ends of the group. This seemed to work out for a nice even distribution of light. Both "ends" of coverage seemed to meter about the same as the middle and as best I could tell, all the shadows were low and behind. Both lightstands were right next to my camera. The downside with this is things look pretty flat as these 2 lights basically serve as one large key light (as Marc eluded to). I think in the real shooting environment (other than my garage) I would take the ambient down about 1-2 stops to create some separation and contrast. (I have limited space to practice with and the small garage is giving me lots of unintended bounced ambient so I can't get it down - If I could get hubby to clean the thing I'd have more room).<br>
<br />Marc: Thank you for your well wishes. Given your advice Option 4 (attachment) depicts what I think you describe:<br /><br />You describe the use of Key and Fill. I'm not sure I have the juice to do both so I just may have to settle for all around, even lighting (as bland as it may be).</p>
<p><strong>Joey: "For the record, yesterday's wedding called for a group shot in the church of about 20 people and a single 60" brolly box with Sunpak 383s worked fine".</strong><br /><br />Shoot through brolly? 2 Sunpaks? I'd be interested to hear these details, what kind of brolly you used, how high up it was and how far back it was placed.<br>
<br />Everyone, your help is really appreciated. I'm learning a lot and I apologize for not addressing you directly. Unlike other forums I've been too, there certainly seems to be a lot of seasoned talent here. <br /><br />I'm also beginning to draw the conclusion that doing traditional wedding formals with AA batteries is not the way to go. (i.e. using a bag of speedlites exclusively).</p><div>
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<p>Wow, you guys are awesome! Pictures and everything. :) I am learning so much here. <br /><br /><br />I should point out that I shoot cropped cameras, Canon 50D & 40D. I plan on using the the 50D with a 17-55 IS lens for this group shot, most likely in the 20mm range which will give me a 35mm equivalent. (The barrel distortion right at 17mm is too much for my tastes on a 50D. From 20mm and up it does fine).<br /><br /><br />Nadine: I have heard so many good things about the now defunct Sunpak 120J you use and have an opportunity to take one off somebody's hands for $125 in fine working condition with battery pack. Would you (or anyone else still recommend it?). I don't know which version it is (TTL?) or which is better. Comparing the output power of this flash to a 580ex II is confusing when going by the guide numbers - feet, meters, mm - manufacturers can't seem to decide on standard nomenclature. If it won't give me much more power than the 580 in this kind of situation (as your test above would indicate) I'm not sure I should consider it. Other strobe options aren't feasible right now so I'm stuck with my two 430's and a single 580 (which I use for a lot of quick setup portraits).<br /><br />I would love to move up to an AB800/1600 if it weren't for stringing an extension cord and hunting for an outlet. Along with safety considerations of having a cord snaking all over the floor of course.<br /><br />I am also trying to learn from William Porter's recent post and his situation which logistically speaking is identical to mine except I have more time to set this up and have an additional speedlight (I think). I'm also trying to maximize placement of those speedlights with umbrellas which I don't believe he used given his time constraints.<br /><br /><br /><em><strong>Marc wrote: "Seems that the extra you'd need is a Y connector to trigger two 430EXs on a dual bracket fired into the 60" reflected umbrella ... both set to manual full power. Take this up as high as your stands will go which, when the umbrella is used in the reflected mode, will be higher than 8'. Like Nadine said, place it camera right as the key light about 10' from the subject."</strong></em><br /><br />Dual flash bracket and Y splitter is doable if this is the best approach. When you say, "place it camera right as the key light about 10' from the subject", how far camera right would you suggest? If my group spans say, 14-18 feet from end to end I'm thinking about 8 feet camera right. Also, upon reflection and given my 35mm field of view (converted from a 20mm crop), I might have to do this from 12-15 back - that will make a difference.<br /><br />I suppose full power would be needed for both 430's but I'm not to crazy about the resultant recycle times. Once this shot is set up I'ld like to keep everything the same for the smaller groups to follow. Oh well, it is what it is…<br /><br /><br /><em><strong>Marc: "Put the 580EX on another stand with the 45" reflective umbrella take that up to 8' and place it just behind your camera position."</strong></em><br /><br />I actually tried this outside and in the garage last night and it worked pretty well. And add me to the other nutjobs here playing with umbrellas on a Friday night. The neighbors probably thought a storm was moving in. <br /><br /><br /><em><strong>Marc: "I would do 3 rows deep in a classic staggered pyramid formation: 8 in the front row, 7 in the second, and 5 in the rear …"</strong></em><br /><br />Unfortunately, I only have one step to work with so 3 rows may not be possible. I know this shot includes younger ones so I could put a few on the floor I suppose.<br /><br /><br />I'm going to <eek!> try and attach a hastily prepared drawing to illustrate my initial thoughts regarding placement with what I have. Option 1 was my original thought and it is quite "linear" given my inexperience in all this. Not sure if, a.) the 430ex's have the power even though they will be filled by an on camera 580 and, b.) whether I'll be getting double shadows.<br /><br />Option 2: is similar to what a lot of people are saying (I think) but I don't know if I can get that 60" umbrella high enough given the distance from the group or do I know what to do with the available 580 with regard to another umbrella (which is why I left it on camera):<br /><br /></p><div></div>
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<p>If you stack the people in 3 rolls and your lights are too close to the people, about 8 feet or less, you could experience a 1 stop variation between the first row of people the second and the third.</p>
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<p>Yes, thanks Bob for that silly inverse square law thingy reminder. Never did understand it. I should have time to meter each row during setup and move my lightstands accordingly.</p>
<p>And RT, I understand about the Alien Bees. Should I find myself in this situation more often I can see moving in this direction.</p>
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<p>I don't see a need for the wide angle diffuser for spread in a 60" umbrella; 24mm zoom setting is generally sufficient to spread the light IMO.</p>
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<p>I was wondering the same thing. If you make the shaft longer (put the speedlight further away from the umbrella surface this should do the same thing? And maybe not lose the 2/3 stop of light because of the diffuser flap. I'm a little hesitant to question Nadine's advice though. :)</p>
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<p>What I do is put two shoot-through umbrellas in the center and point them outward toward the edges of the group.</p>
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<p>This is interesting but won't work for a full length group shot. The umbrellas would be in the way.</p>
<p>I think where I'm at right now is to shoot two 430's in the 45" reflective umbrellas, one to each side at 1/2 power. Then maybe the 580 right over the lens axis for fill light with the WA diffuser flap down.</p>
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<p><blockquote>It seems you are asking us to tell you <em>exactly</em> where to place your lights and what lights to use? How does that help you?<br>
Not to sound sarcastic but actually, that would help a lot. :)</blockquote></p>
<p>And I can appreciate seminars and lighting theory but I'm merely looking for general guidance from those who have similar gear to my own AND have shot groups of this size. You see, I won't get a chance to experiment with this, I can't round up 20 people for a BBQ and try it out nor can I replicate the light in the venue. I'll only get one opportunity at this, maybe two after an upcoming ceremony.<br>
Nadine: Thank you. I read how you did this in the other thread but thought you were using a Sunpak.</p>
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<p>Was there something else you are looking for?</p>
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<p>Well, yes. I read that thread a few days ago and that's what inspired me to start my own. But there's all kinds of different gear involved, everything from Sunpaks to reflectors. That's why I listed my specific equipment. Thought I could get some specific advice, customized especially for me. :)</p>
<p>I'd like to try a single 60" umbrella, back about 15 feet just to my right and up 8' or so. With maybe the 580 or 2 of the 430's shooting into this single umbrella. (A single umbrella to eliminate cross shadows). Do you think that's enough power? Somebody suggested to <strong>shoot through</strong> the 60 incher with a 580 and positioning the umbrella way off to the right side of the group and feathering it a bit to spread some light on the end person on the other side. Not sure this will work though.</p>
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<p>Hi! I'm a lurker and have finally signed up!<br /><br />I have an upcoming wedding with some big indoor family group shots that will need to be done, maybe 20 people per group. I can stack them in 3 rows of 6/7 across or so but was wondering, given what gear I have below, what would be the best way to light this inside the church? The venue has average ambient lighting and would probably meter at 1/60, f/2.8 at 800 ISO.<br /><br />1-580exII<br />3-430ex (one is on its way to the graveyard)<br /><br />2-45" reflective umbrellas (white with removable black backing)<br />1-60" umbrella (same)<br />2-8 foot light stands.<br /><br />1-Pocket Wizard transmitter<br />2-Receivers<br /><br />I'll shoot wide, maybe 15 feet back. 1/40 - 1/60 maybe(?). I'd like to keep this simple. I should have about 20 minutes to set up. I can't bounce because this place is too big. 20 people might not be big to you guys but I normally do very small weddings.<br /><br />So, given what I have, what combination would be best for this? I will be shooting at manual power and will get a reading with a light meter but just want to know if my flash units and umbrellas would have enough spread for even exposure with these size groups. If not, I need to get something else maybe. I tried practicing this in my garage but it just isn't the same. :)<br /><br />I've also searched the forum and have found some good general reading on this.<br /><br /><br />Thanks!</p>
Lighting 20+ people indoors
in Wedding & Event
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