maria_papas

<p>WOW Nadine, I didn't know I was attacking<strong> another person's motivation, intelligence, or character. </strong>It seems to me that I was the one under attack for participating in the discussion.<br>

FOR EXAMPLE: <br>

<em><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=22127">Mike Dixon</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Moderator" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/mod.gif" alt="" /><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10plus.gif" alt="" /><img title="Current POW Recipient" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/trophy.gif" alt="" /></a>, May 31, 2011; 06:02 a.m.</em><br>

<em>What's more disturbing is having people (who, not surprisingly, have no photos of their own they're willing to share) post links and offer genuinely nasty comments about other people's work.</em><br>

wasn't that a <strong><strong>Postings that attack another person's motivation, intelligence, or character degrade the quality of the discussion and discourage thoughtful comments by others?</strong></strong><br>

Thankfully for me mister Marc Williams proves that point without me having to say so.<br>

<em><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=453741">Marc Williams</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10.gif" alt="" /><img title="Current POW Recipient" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/trophy.gif" alt="" /></a>, May 31, 2011; 08:16 a.m. posted "Who cares if some "offending" photographer is on this forum or not? " </em><br>

Didn't that pretty much spell it out for you, Nadine, that Mr Dixon was implicitly making that remark about me? That is why I specifically targeted Mr. Dixon in my 3rd post (<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5922512">Maria Papas</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"></a>, May 31, 2011; 10:25 a.m.) where I spelled it out for him that I AM NOT A "PHOTOGRAPHER" I am a "CONSUMER". He attacked me first, by insinuating that I am a <em><strong>cowardly</strong></em> "offending photographer" on the hunt to criticize other photographers. Mr. Williams was just as quick to pick up on it.<br>

I was FLAT OUT DEFENDING MYSELF and you jumped right into the mele to hold my hands behind my back while others took their free for all punches. </p>

<p>I really enjoyed all of the comments posted by everybody else in this discussion. Nadine, you allowed Wade to vent, yet I wasn't allowed to? If you go on the website I posted earlier and take a look at the children's photos you will see one photo that stood out to me at least. It's one of a little girl who's eyes were made to look SO BLUE she reminded me of the exorcist. I can't even BEGIN to tell you how bad my friend's photos are. The pics you are looking at just happen to be this photographer's "cream of the crop". Can you at least try to use your imagination as to how bad my friends photos could possibly be?<br>

Then Nadine, you don't comment about the people who posted: "Anyways, meet me in the smoking section after 4th period <em><strong>Walt." </strong></em> That was so funny I totally forgot to laugh Nadine! BUT I WAS THE ONE WHO <strong><strong>Postings that attack another person's motivation, intelligence, or character degrade the quality of the discussion and discourage thoughtful comments by others?</strong></strong><br>

<strong>PLEASE. That was aimed specifically at me Nadine, yet you turned a blind eye to that one too. </strong><br>

<strong>PS. to </strong>Mr. Ellington: I agree that simple is best, but sometimes pictures do need a little work. </p>

<p>Mr. Dixon: <br>

<em>I have EVERY RIGHT to post my OPINION about ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. If you don't like it either ignore my responses and take yourself off the instant alerts for this thread or move out of this country, and preferably go to one without internet service.</em></p>

<p>This was meant for those who wanted to censor my opinion. I should have also added:<br>

<em>I have EVERY RIGHT to post my OPINION about ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. If you don't like it either ignore my responses and take yourself off the instant alerts for this thread or move out of this country, and preferably go to one without internet service. <strong>OR you can comment back and we can keep this thread alive and well so maybe we can end up back to the topic of this discussion which is </strong></em></p>

<h1>complaining about <em>other people's</em> bad wedding photos</h1>

<p>Does this forum NOT SUPPORT the right to complain? I didn't read any disclosures about that anywhere... not even on the website of the person who's link I used as an example. If you have a website maybe you will want to add that type of disclosure somewhere. Either on your portfolio page, your About Us page, or better yet your CONTACT US page. It could go something like this : <em>Contact us about anything OTHER THAN A COMPLAINT. For that you could go directly to <a href="http://www.bbb.org/">http://www.bbb.org/</a> this way we can all be happy 8-)</em></p>

<p>To set the record straight for those of you who are "offended" by the fact I posted a poor photographer's POOR photos in this thread to talk about:<br>

1) I am a CONSUMER and I am offering my opinions FREE OF CHARGE. Take it or leave it. At least I am not asking for any money because I should start asking for some... The same way some "photographers" do.<br>

2) This is an open and public forum. If this photographer has any sense of mind to ever google herself she will find this thread, be able to read it, and have the option to either respond or correct her mistakes because of what she reads if she feels she made any. If any of you would like to go out of their way and ALERT the photographer in question please feel free to do so as well. That's why I posted her link, and also mentioned that I saw her photography on facebook (it might be a good idea if anyone TRULY wants to help her). I gave each and every one of you the option to do so if you would like to go out of your way. Me, personally, I prefer to continue the discussion Wade started and let the photographer in my link find her own way in life. I'm not in the "save art for art's sake" kinda mood today. Sort of the way Obama isn't in the "feed the children" kind of mood any day (so far) and I need to keep seeing those stupid commercials on my television set. Maybe he will read this thread and change his mind?<br>

3) Obama is the president and I am not nor will I ever be, but don't I have the right to discuss his work performance especially since it directly affects me? That's how I felt about the photographer who's link I posted to this thread. It was serendipitous that I saw my friend's photos recently and it was fresh in my mind and I also saw this post almost simultaneously. For those of you who's funny bone I tickled...I think you might have a phony baloney bone in your clicker finger and are upset that me or anyone else out there might accidentally EXPOSE it.<br>

4) I have EVERY RIGHT to post my OPINION about ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. If you don't like it either ignore my responses and take yourself off the instant alerts for this thread or move out of this country, and preferably go to one without internet service. <br>

5) I am not the only person on this earth who feels this way. If I was then <em><strong>I </strong></em>would be living in another country with no internet service. I don't like being censored as much as ANY of you don't want to be told to put your cameras down and to stop taking pictures. The minute I find something better to do with my time, I will stop responding to this thread. Till then I feel I am offering many people a great service free of charge by posting on here.</p>

<p>I have no expertise whatsoever... I wish i could show you how <em><strong>RETARTED </strong></em>my poor friend's baby looked in the photographs this so called "photographer" took for her daughter's most memorable life moment. I swear I just didn't have the heart to tell her. If I posted some of the photos of this event- even without the subject in prime in them, if one of you contacted this photographer about her gaffs in any of the photos she would know exactly what event it was that she was being questioned about and that one of her friends was telling on her because of it. I'M NOT GOING TO PUT MY FRIEND IN THAT SITUATION.<br>

There are photographers out there, and then there are <strong><em>PHOTOGRAPHERS</em></strong>. THANK THE GOOD LORD ABOVE that I know the difference between BOTH. AND <em>MIND-YOU-ME </em><strong>EVERYONE ELSE <em>also </em></strong>knows the difference. I LOVE <strong>POSES</strong>, but I <em>ABSOLUTELY - FREAKING - HATE</em> ----- IM<strong>POS</strong>T<strong>ERS!!! </strong>Read it again and again: im-<em><strong>POS</strong></em>-t-<em><strong>ERS.</strong></em><strong> For those of you who need it spelled out: mind the</strong><strong> </strong><em><strong>BOLD</strong><strong>. </strong></em></p>

<p>How about I show you some horridness..... Wade, I feel your PAIN. Here is an example of a photographer who goes EDITING CRAZY. <a href="http://barcaphotography.com/Portfolio.php">http://barcaphotography.com/Portfolio.php</a> She SUCKS as a photographer by every means IMAGINABLE. A photographer who <strong>DEPENDS </strong>on a photo editing software in order to achieve desirable results is not a photographer at all. My point and shoot does better work than the photos I have seen by this "photographer" when it is calibrated onto "auto". <br>

None of the photos in this portfolio are of <em>anyone </em>I personally know. A friend of mine recently posted photos (from this photographer) of a v<em>ery special occasion</em> in her life on facebook. Because I was HORRIFIED with the photos I was looking at I went to this photographer's portfolio to see if <em><strong>MAYBE </strong></em>she was just having an OFF day. <strong>BOY WAS I WRONG!!!!</strong><br>

The pictures in the portfolio are NOTHING CLOSE to<em><strong> HOW DISGUSTING </strong></em>the raw images are that she is producing for her clients. Even so be it if they are friends and she is doing her a favor <em>FOR FREE</em>... She is still running a photography business and every image she puts her name on (because she is tagging her business as a reference for my friend's personal photos) reflects the type of photographer she is. My friend's photos are a <em><strong>disgrace </strong></em>and I don't even have the heart to tell her how bad they are because it's OVER AND DONE WITH ALREADY. No need to break her heart and have her crying over spilled milk.<br>

ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME ABOUT THE NATURE OF THESE PHOTOS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT BACK. I HATE TO GO BACK TO THIS DESPICABLE PORTFOLIO IN ORDER TO DEFEND MY OPINION, BUT THIS PHOTOGRAPHER MAKES IT SO EASY TO DO SO, SO FEEL FREEEEEEE AND I WILL OBLIGE. <br>

If I was in need of money and I said I was a photographer of some sort (like this photographer is trying to do), I would post "photos free of charge" on my website and pray on the mercy of kind people to put food on my table to feed my children. <em><strong>PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</strong></em></p>

<p><em><strong>PS. TAKE YOUR STABS AS HARD AS YOU CAN...I AM NOT EVEN AN AMATEUR PHOTOGRAPHER. IF ANYONE HAS ANY OPPOSING OPINIONS ABOUT MY POST THEN GOOD LUCK IN YOUR CAREER IF YOU ARE SOME KIND OF AN ASPIRING PHOTOGRAPHER!!!</strong></em></p>

<p>I am not a photographer but I was in your neice's situation and I can give you my point of view on your neice's behalf.<br>

My uncle was my first choice for photographer (afficionado, same as you) at my wedding, but due to "what people will say" I was forced to hire a professional photographer. I did very little homework on the guy I hired but due to the fact that he photographed numerous friend's weddings and he came recommended through word of mouth I figured what the heck. I paid this guy a handsome amount of money...money I wished went into my pockets after all was said and done rather than his. I also notified the pro that my uncle was to be photographing on the day of the wedding, but he wasn't happy, nor was he going with it to please me.<br>

On the day of the wedding he made nasty remarks to my uncle, gave me crappy pictures to last me a lifetime, and he walked away with a stash of money to laugh all the way to the bank with. My uncle was only able to photograph part of my wedding day for his own personal reasons so he only took pictures of me at the church. I can say that without a doubt the pictures my uncle took for the hour he was at the church were more "Me" AND BETTER QUALITY than the pictures the pro spit out of his camera. My only regret was not pressing my uncle to photograph the entire wedding and telling everyone else to eff off. I would have re-arranged my entire wedding location had I known the outcome of my pro pictures just to accomodate my uncle to be there.<br>

You see...I grew up behind my uncle's lens and in his home. He knew not only my personality but also my wedding day dreams. He may not be a "for hire" photographer, but he has photographed more events than my photographer ever did. Over the years he gained experience, bought top of the line equipment, and practiced on me and all my other relatives. For over 30 years he was never without a recording device in his hand. He has no children so photography was his hobby and the rest of us were merely his focal points. Do your neice a favor and take her pictures for her. If you don't have the time to invest in learning how to take wedding photography and you don't feel confident enough with yourself to handle the situation on your own...hire someone more experienced off of this forum who will work with you that day to help you. In my opinion...if you know how to work your equipment and you have good aim...go for it on your own. Even pro's have off days...just because you get hired it doesn't mean you will be shooting at 100% all of the time. Besides...what's the worst that can happen? You might end up giving her better pictures than the pro ever will!<br>

PS...on the equipment end...my uncle is a techie so he has everything you could imagine. I really don't know what to tell you about your situation. You will need to check with the pro's on that one.</p>

<p>Katrin, I absolutely think an accredited photographer anywhere in this world would be able to answer this question. I just didn't know the best way to approach this topic for a discussion on this forum. As far as releasing only 100 amazing of the 200 midiocre photos...let's say you as the photographer were the only person with a camera there on that day... don't you think if the bride would like to have all of those photos she should? I mean, she is after all paying you for the entire day of work and is depending on you to document her memories. Lets say you did take a lot of photographs that are not of any artistic or quality value to you, do you think it would be out of the realm of possibility for her to even request them or for you to give them? Don't you think those negatives should be something the bride should have if she wants them? How do you feel about deleting photo's while in the process of taking pictures the day of the wedding?? Would you delete more than half of the images you processed into your camera without opening them onto a computer screen first? Is that something safe for a photographer to really do these days with memory sticks being so cheap nowadays? Those camera screens are awfully small and the day is going by awfully fast to be making decisions like that on the fly when people are depending on you, what do you think?<br>

Neil, let's say for argument's sake that your opinion of telling a wedding story doesn't coinside with the bride's story, wouldn't there be a slight problem? Do you really believe that you can artistically represent a bride 100% every single time? I don't know about that. I'm not asking to put you on the spot or even to get an answer, it's just something to think about.<br>

How about if the photographer didn't have any relevant, published or known work...why would his/her artistic representation be the tell all for someone's wedding he is hired to photograph? Shouldn't the bride have a say in the matter? After all...to her and the people she is showing her albums to...it's HER publication as well. If you cannot provide her the proper images to put into her album with HER story, then what good is your story to her? <br>

FYI- I paid between 6 and 7 thousand dollars for the above package, just to clear the curiosity.</p>

<p>Wow, that REALLY stinks. It is false advertizing in every sense of the word.</p>

<p>Nadine, most importantly I needed to know if all the negatives would/could be given for a wedding shoot. The reason I posted the specifics of a package was for the pro's to understand what range this type of deal would be for. I asked for the price so I can filter through the different price ranges the pro's responded with and only consider the one's which I desire to know. The location was specified in order to place the market area for this package because I am not interested about understanding anyplace other than my surrounding area.<br>

Up until now, I have only heard of pro's who gave all decent photographs taken on that day. The word decent is used loosely as far as quality, in other words anything that was not considered garbage by even the bride.</p>

<p>Nadine, I completely understand your position in this matter. The reason I couldn't state why I was asking was so I can get an unbiased opinion as much as possible from pro-photographers. I agree with you that it was an unfair question and that G.E. responded appropriately according to his beliefs, however he really didn't need to respond- the same way you didn't. I do not hold anything against G.E. AT ALL, but at the same time he was responded to according to his reply towards my question.<br>

G.E. you are a wonderful photographer, POINT BLANK. I have seen some of your pieces and although not all, I really LOVE your work. As I pointed out to you before, if some brides could go back in time and change anything about their wedding production they WOULD. Photography is one of those things. Documented memories are PRICELESS and sometimes quality doesn't match up to memories. If you had a photographer you hired to capture images of your wedding and all he focused on was getting the "properly focused image" and you are handed only a handful of pictures he produces....then your money went straight down the drain and into his pockets. To me that is highway robbery for the price I paid. To others who like to live in the moment and are fly by night, it might work. For instance, what am I going to do with only 3 MAGICAL pictures of my wedding? One of me getting ready, one of my groom getting ready, and one of us right after we got married. Theoretically that is exactly what a wedding is about-two people joining as one. Let's say that is all I paid for, agreed to, and received. If that was all my husband and I wanted then all parties involved would be happy. If you as a photographer are able to capture the happiest moments of our lives with just three pictures you are in the clear. If you are a horrible photographer and cut our heads off in all three of those pictures, only then that is where true quality comes into play. I was fortunate enough to have a very close relative who I revere as a quality photographer in every sense of the word to capture those moments for me, but the professional photographer I hired didn't even come close. He gave me quality photos of what HE thought would hit the spot, and they were excellent as far as composure and artistry, but they really didn't capture the true essense of our matrimony. Not even close. I really can't blame him because he was someone who I didn't know prior to me hiring him, except for what I heard about him from the previous brides he photographed who were all my old friends. I saw that he captured everything I LOVED about those girls. He allowed me to go through all their photographs and I became very sentimental, which was MY MISTAKE. I allowed my feelings to run my business affairs and that is noone else's fault but MY OWN. He was hired based upon a contract I signed and it is exactly what he delivered. He basically saw me comming through the doors. G.E. I appologize for ruffling your feathers. You are a master at work and noone should bother the master while he is working. You want to see and not necessarily want to feel at all times, and for that I appologize for the bother. I am new to this forum and didn't know exactly what or who I was dealing with. Take a look at some bridal forums and you will see some many personalities that are coping with other issues. I wouldn't advise it, but I'm letting you know ;-)<br>

Manuel, if I had a penny for every time I heard that question...but no. I do have family in Manhattan, but not Chris Papas on the UWS.<br>

P.S. I cannot believe this discussion summoned a moderator. I am sorry to all those who became involved with the question.</p>

<p>G.E. You need to understand that nobody said you didn't have qualifications, expertise, certifications, or that you are not well known in your industry. You need to understand though that you are also dealing with a general public when it comes to people searching through your wedding packages. You are analyzing why they are on your site, how long they spend on your site, so on and so forth??? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY SPENT ONLY A MINUTE ON YOUR WEBSITE??? As Ms Ramirez stated, people are not stupid when it comes to the different levels of skill, but one thing she also pointed out was that money is also a factor when it comes to hiring a photographer (or anything you pay for in this life).<br>

You need to remember, people typically get married once in their life. The age of getting married is generally 20-40 years old and with that being said you are going to come across a lot of naive 20 year old brides asking for prices, as well as a few well seasoned older brides who have had many of their friends get married before them and have spilled some beans about the in's and out's of their wedding experience. With that being said, we can conclude that experience naturally comes with age.<br>

There are also many other factors to consider about why people are only looking at one page on your website before they request a quote, and I could name some off the top of my head...1) budget- some girls who are just starting out need to know where to begin. You should be flattered that they are even asking you for a price because they are considering hiring you as their photographer. 2)competition- other photographers in your market may be asking to find out what you are charging 3)Gossip- a competitive friend or relative of the bride wants to know what she paid her photographer.<br>

There is a whole realm of endless possibilities to consider as to why people are requesting quotes, possibilities that you should let roll off your back as a cost of doing business and move on to more important tasks. If it bothers you so much that people are only looking for prices, then you should include a price list on your website just for the people who are looking at numbers. In fact, when a business doesn't have prices available for consumers to see in writing they can be fined by consumer affairs. If you are selling something (product or service) it is required BY LAW to have it in writing for anyone who asks, so there is no need to get upset that someone is asking you for a price.<br>

As for your question about why more established pro's are not posting on forums any more... G.E. that's like asking "why did my bird have to die?". The answer is "because", and unless you hear it from the horse's mouth as to why they stopped posting, you are not entitled to fill in the blanks for them. You are entitled to post your opinion, but anyone with half a brain will not take your word for it. Remember, believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.<br>

I do not know the photography industry the way you know it. You most likely live it, eat it, breathe it, love it, loathe it, day in and day out. I do not revolve my life around photography the way you do. I commend you for everything you have accomplished as a photographer, an artist, and as someone who has given back to the community through your publications and productions. Not very many people, in my opinion, walk through this life with as great passion as you do. I will not, however, take life away from someone who does not share the same passion for something as you have with photography.<br>

Believe me, I can guarantee that if many brides could go back to the day they were married there would be a lot of things they would love to alter about their event. Photographers being one of the few. As a married woman I can at least vouch for myself on that aspect.</p>

<p>Ms. Ramirez, Very well put. Thank you!</p>

<p>G.E. That's what forums are for. To ask questions and get answers. If I was shopping around I would have stated that I was looking to find x package for the best price. The reason I gave my location is because I tried asking this question a different way before and didn't get the answer I was looking for. I love the way you like to put divide between the pro's and the consumers. If these "folks" didn't feel the need to respond, then they wouldn't have. I didn't put a gun to anyone's head to get answers. Some people who love photography also love to talk about it. You, on the other hand, felt the need to acknowledge my question and follow up with an answer full of contempt towards a "probable" consumer. Another thing I also could see you doing with your response was try slap an up and commer off their game. That's not nice either. The same dignity you hold for the work you produce should also be held for your work ethic. I know the photography industry is very cut throat though so I forgive you. P.S. I am NOT a pro photographer so you can lay that to rest right now too. I grew up with photo and video camera's all around me so I truly appreciate their value, and then some. I personally stink at taking photos. I can't even control my point and click camera, so to speak. <br>

Anyway, this is a photography forum, and not a therapy session. I am greatful to all the people who responded in a professional manner. You have all been of great help to me and I appologize for going off topic with G.E. </p>

<p>Thank you for all your responses. The reason I was asking was because of a private discussion I was having with my husband about photography on this topic.<br>

G.E. Masana, I'm already married, but thanks for your opinion. I drive a BMW not a Mercedes, but that's my preference. I also chose my photographer the same way. I prefered his style over yours. I'm not saying you weren't great...I just liked him BETTER for my own personal reasons. You click?</p>

Hello,

I have a question about wedding packages for photographers:

If I purchased a package from you a wedding package which included:

16x20 gallery wrap, a 50 page leather story book 12x12 bridal album, 2- 5x7 parent albums with 34 images, a fine art

coffee table album, 1- 11x14 portrait, 4 - 8x10 portraits, 8- 5x7 portraits, 500 boxed proofs, 200 5x7 thank you cards,

a dvd containing high resolution images, engagement session, 2 photographers with 12 hours of photographic

coverage....

 

What would you charge? How many pictures would you take? Would you give me all the digital negatives of the

pictures you took on my wedding day? I live in Flushing, Queens, NY. Thanks.

<p>First of all, you and your wife make a handsom couple, and your wife was a gorgeous bride on her wedding day. I have to agree with Anthomy Zipple in this matter...Choose your favorite images and work them. Try really hard to get half the money back from her if you can, but I doubt she will bother to refund you. If you can get your attorney to send a letter to her, it may prompt her to send it to you right away and you can both move on before a suit is filed.</p>

<p>I am not a pro, but from what I've experienced in the past I can tell you pro's can be awefully snippy. No matter how you slice and dice it if they want to be jerks, they will be jerks. It really all depends on what kind of person the photographer is to begin with. In my opinion, if I were you I would tell your sis-in-law about the great spot first. On her wedding day she will be too busy to remember to take those pics but maybe she can mention to it to her pro before hand and PUT IT IN WRITING. If on her wedding day you see she hasn't taken those photos, pull her and her husband aside and TAKE THEM YOURSELF. If the pro has any good sense he will go along and take the pics he was contracted to take and not cause any grief to anyone. This way she gets her happy memories taken by a pro and a semi pro ;-)</p>