katelynch

<p>Thanks Zelph! Sorry for the long delay in responding. Much appreciated. </p>

<p>Thanks Craig. I told them I would charge them $300 for the next shoot. I still need to talk to the mayor to get his thoughts (his day job is working in public affairs…as is my day job) about the flag background. I did quite a bit of checking to see what other cities do, including NYC and Boston. None of the local governments use a flag backdrop (I checked 7-8 cities in our area). Even our state legislature doesn't have flags in the background of portraits. I just checked our U.S. Reps. and Senators web pages (in Right Coast Washington). None of them has an official portrait with a flag behind them. I think a flag is distracting for a headshot. Then again, maybe we do things a little differently in Left Coast Washington. </p>

<p>Thanks for the setup tips. It's been many years since I've had formal studio lighting, so I'm still getting used to this setup. This is the second time I used the new lights and first time I've used this backdrop. I actually like the crinkly look of the background and it was impossible to get back farther. I was in a small conference room. I do appreciate your suggestions, though. I'll experiment in my home studio a bit before the next shoot, which is a couple of weeks out. My friends always like getting free portraits done in exchange for being my test subjects. :-)<br>

Merry Winter Solstice!</p>

<p>Thanks Matt and Michael. Love the custom suit analogy. May I borrow that? With attribution, of course! :-)</p>

<p>Hello all! I recently did a series of head shots for a small local city - city council members, mayor, police and fire chief, and key managers. I brought a mottled blue muslin backdrop and set up in a conference room with two soft lights (I shot with a strobe as fill light). When I was asked for a bid (I've done lots of event and tourism work for this city in the past), I told them I would charge them $300 for two hours. Yes, I know that's a low bid, but I haven't done much work for them recently. We're talking about 7 council members and maybe 8 staff. I told them to plan on one hour in the afternoon for staff and one hour right before the council meeting in the evening. When I got there, the administrator I was working with told me that they'd like to schedule a second shoot (she kept calling it a "retake session" which it is not) because two council members and two key staff couldn't be present. The staff shoot took about 45 minutes (I had to hunt up about half of the staff). I left and came back before the council meeting. I managed to get shots of the four council members, the mayor, and the city clerk. But it took 2 hours because they weren't all present, had an executive session scheduled (which required that I wait several minutes), and the mayor had a TV interview. Originally, they had scheduled me for 3 hours. I told them I would have to charge them $150 for the third hour, because I bid the job based on two hours including set-up. I delivered high resolution and web-size photos on a DVD three days later. They told me they were very happy with the images. I told them that I would give them a price for the second shoot. This morning, I received a message from the admin that they would like me to reshoot ALL of the city council members in chambers (dark, will be tough to light), with flags in the background. After we do those, they'll decide which they would rather use: the shots with the flags or with the neutral background. I had already checked city portraits for 8 surrounding cities. None of them use flags in the background - all use neutral backgrounds. Should I tell them (in writing) that it will be a new shoot, so I will be charging them $300? With studio set-up, the last shoot actually took nearly four hours. Thanks for your help!</p><div></div>

<p>Yes, costs were covered. I think my actual profit was about $600. I haven't tallied all the costs (mailing, printing, packaging). I highly recommend MPix. I used them for the first time with this shoot and I am very impressed. Something I hadn't considered but figured into the success of this venture is that many of the dads are active-duty military. My city is right next to a huge Army and Air Force installation. There is a rich military tradition of formal events. Several dads were in dress blues and several were in rented tuxes! It was like a prom. Really really fun. And they were all having a wonderful time. I still haven't figured out how to avoid the long lines. My plan was to assign numbers but we were so busy all at once that none of us (there were three of us) could get a handle on numbering. My plan was to assign numbers to every order sheet and then call them up in groups of 10. The helper that was supposed to assign numbers couldn't figure out how to just do that. I never stopped shooting (except to change flash batteries) for almost two hours straight.</p>

<p>I thought I would give you all a follow-up on the Daddy Daughter Dance. First of all, thank you to everyone for your good counsel about the Daddy Daughter Dance. I was able to get order forms out in advance and had about 60 orders. Only about a dozen were CD, which kind of surprised me. Several of the CD orders also wanted a souvenir package, which I priced at $12 for a 5x7" print, with a banner design at the bottom, and four wallets. It was a very busy couple of hours shooting. I learned a lot from the experience. Not sure I want to do this kind of thing on a regular basis but I did have fun. A couple of volunteers with the organization that sponsored the dance put together the backdrop. You'll see in the gallery (I posted some shots from the dance on photo.net) that the background needed a little work. It was ok for a souvenir event but there were problems all evening with the rippling backdrop and the shifting "red carpet." All in all, it was worthwhile albeit a LOT of work.</p>

<p>WW - Sorry...I really did understand your post and am taking your advice. I was pressed for time last night, though, so combined responses to several folks here. I, too, like source information but I don't know who photographed the event last year. However, I could agree to do the shoot and then ask them who photographer was, so I can get a reading on his/her experience. I really would like to avoid the online selection method, so I think I'll offer a couple of basic print packages, a CD, and CD/print package combo. Prepaid, of course. I also like the samples idea. I did that with a couple of events to show different sizes with examples of my portrait work. I think this event will be a lot of fun - little girls and their Dads. Given portraiture has been a popular feature, I'm thinking about asking the registration desk to assign a time to each Dad, so there isn't a line 20 deep. I can add that to my order form, so Dads have a chance to think about what they want before they come over for photos.<br>

Ian, thanks much for your post. I really think this is a different kind of event than the Santa portraits, so I appreciate your perspective and advice.</p>

<p>Thanks for all of your help. I have a bit more information. The event is actually sponsored by the homeowners association. This is their fifth year and will sell out a month ahead. There is an expectation that a professional photographer will sell them print packages, similar to a prom portrait. The entry is controlled and the organization has promised to supply me with two staff to manage the line. I will bring my own helper and offer a basic print package or CD or print/CD combination, with reorder options. The events manager told me that they didn't like the product quality the photographer provided last year. They are not asking him/her back.<br>

Yes, RT, I agree that if I'm going to do more of this then I should invest in on-site printing. In researching what other photographers are doing for prom shoots, I ran across a photographer who asks for prepaid orders to load up to four images on a flash drive, custom printed with his business name. What a cool idea! The biggest pain with these jobs is order fulfillment (burning CDs, printing labels, packaging, etc.). I'm not sure I'm ready to make the investment (still have a day job) in on-site printing right now. I'm already contracted with the city for commercial projects. They like me, they like my work, and want to support photographers who live in the city. After the Santa event two years ago, I talked them into just hiring a Santa, charge a flat rate for families, and let the the parents do their own photography (much like Nish suggests). When I did that shoot, there were at least three single moms who were really upset because they scraped together enough for the breakfast but couldn't afford photographs. I quietly comped those moms while quietly cursing staff for putting me in that position.<br>

Nadine and William W, thanks again for your sterling advice. I had intended on investing in studio lights (finally!) this spring. I'll either have to do that earlier than I had planned or else rent lights. Hair light is a great idea for little girls in party dresses! And William, I'm thankful that no one is asking why they aren't charging the photographer for setting up. (shhh!)</p>

<p>I live in small city and have a good business relationship with city staff. The city has purchased rights to several of my photographs and has hired me to photograph events over the past couple of years. Yesterday, I got a request from the city events manager to photograph the annual Valentine's Day Daddy Daughter Dance. I photographed a Santa event for the city a couple of years ago and it was a nightmare, mainly because parents came in with the expectation that I would operate like the mall Santa photographer: shoot a couple of photos, parent reviews and chooses, and a print is delivered on-site. However, the city events manager tells me that parents were very satisfied with the quality of images. The dance would be a little more manageable. Last year, the photographer the city contracted with produced about 70 portraits and apparently sold print packages for all of them. That's the reason I would even consider doing it. I would likely do at least $1500 in sales for 2-3 hours of shooting. I'm reasonably sure I could pull it off with a single source lighting (Nikon SB600 speedlight) with an umbrella. The event will be held in an elementary school's multipurpose room and there will be a backdrop for the portrait area. I have photographed events in this room before and got satisfactory results with this lighting plan.<br>

I'm thinking that I would offer either a flat rate of $30 (figuring on 2-6 images) for a CD with high-resolution jpegs, or charge $10 to post photos online, where prints can be ordered. A local waterfront museum offers portrait sittings with "Captain Claus." The photographer charges $20 for a CD with 2-3 images or $10 for one 5x7" which he mails to the client a week after the event. A local graduation photographer charges $40 for two 5x7" from on-stage images and doesn't sell CDs. I'm wondering if I should charge the city a nominal rate for being there?<br>

I haven't said yes or no yet. I have concerns mainly because I have no idea what the expectations are for this kind of event. Can someone enlighten me? This event is similar to a prom. I actually would be more comfortable as a roving photographer during the dance. Photojournalism is more my forte. I could offer that instead. But this is a military community, so I think there's an expectation of a portrait sitting. Generally the city lets moms into the dance to photograph dads and daughters dancing. I don't have on-site review and printing, and don't know if that's an expectation...or delivery a couple of days after the event.</p>

<p>Ah Marcus, good counsel. However the client wrote me off as friend, customer, or client. Unfortunately, she didn't leave the door open for any kind of negotiating. Interim update: she used one of her child's photos from the same engagement shoot for her wedding announcement. It's posted on Facebook. The young person is in high school and a budding photographer who job-shadowed me for a school assignment last year. The youngster tagged along on our shoot and I let them use my back-up camera. I'll let you all know what happens next week ...unless she blocks me as a facebook friend. Stay tuned. And thanks to you all. You have been a huge help.</p>

 

<p>Thanks William W. and W.T. This has been very helpful. Ah, yes...I try to keep a distance from premarital counseling. That would have an even more disastrous effect, I'm thinking. :-)<br>

Veronica, thanks for the advice about "add-ons" for my rate sheet. I did give this client my rate sheet (three times). I can see in hindsight (always 20/20 that) that I should have been more direct about asking what her expectations were. I recommended a couple of wedding expos to her, and then asked her questions about what she learned from other photographers. She told one photographer that she wouldn't be swayed by his price because she really wanted me to photograph the wedding. I see now that she assumed that I would give her a low "friend" price regardless of how many hours or how many images I gave her. I revamped my rate sheet recently because a portrait client assumed that they would be paying for just the shoot and somehow they would magically view the images to order prints from. I generally offer package pricing and "a la carte" pricing, like many photographers. But I can see that I need to revisit the list again. I doubt that I will shoot another wedding for a friend, unless they are a really good friend, and I intend to gift them with photography.</p>

<p><em>"Many of my photography friends were used for these jobs and they still had there discounts as the work was passed on from me" </em><br>

Thanks David. I think that's the missing piece for me...and will be in the unwritten part of my business plan for the coming year. I moved to Washington nine years ago and really don't have the photography friends I did in Arizona. A few months ago, my son (who is 23 and will probably marry his long-time girlfriend in a couple of years) said that he was glad his mother was a photographer because they wouldn't have to worry about hiring a photographer. I thought about it and realized that I don't have close enough working relationships with photogs here to trade or collaborate.</p>

 

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<p>Greg, we did a trade on exactly two occasions. I have paid for her service - no discounts - many many times. I would not characterize our relationship as friends. She clearly thinks that is the nature of our relationship, though, and was expecting almost-free. We don't socialize and really have no relationship outside of her business. It really is no different than other weddings I have photographed for co-workers, who did sign an agreement. Wedding photography is not my primary book of business, but I'm no stranger to photography contracts and invoices - on both sides of the equation. My "day job" is in public relations and marketing. I have hired many many photographers over the years and I have been under contract as a photographer. Just not weddings.<br>

Bob, thanks for the compliments. It's especially welcome because I really like your work too...and everybody else who has been so kind to help me work through this.</p>

<p>Thanks Nadine...and all. Very helpful. I didn't use any names, locations or other specifics, so I'm not too concerned about who might find it. I don't intend to address use of disputed photos online. I have wedding photos posted on photo.net but not of this session. <a href="../photos/katelynch">photo.net/photos/katelynch.</a><br>

I occasionally dip my toes into the wedding photog pool. However, if I do it again, it will be deliberately and methodically, and in the company of a seasoned wedding photog.</p>

 

<p>Thanks Bob. I'm reluctant to post the photos from this shoot but I can post a few from another wedding.</p>

<p>Thanks Dave. Your last piece of advice is probably best. Given what I have experienced so far, it's a blessing that I'm not photographing the wedding. Just a bit of clarification: the original estimate was itemized. I estimated $150 for a few photos outside the courthouse. I gave her a revised estimate after the engagement photo sessions, based on an hour at a church and two hours at a reception, $300 or $500 respectively. So I was actually charging her $100 more than what was in my estimate, for that extra hour at the engagement shoot.</p>

<p>Thanks Eric. I billed for 4 hours of shooting and two DVDs with 350 images. That's $100/hr and $100 for each DVD. My estimate was for 4 hours of shooting, including the wedding. The engagement party shoot went over an hour, which I discussed with the bride before and during the party. You think that's overpriced?</p>

<p>Richard, my first mistake was agreeing to do the job. And, of course, a lack of contract means I will likely let it drop. Yes, I do have a record of an email exchange but it was after she decided I was too expensive. What do you think of asking her to remove the images from Facebook? That may be my only recourse. If she decides not to remove them, I can post a link to this forum on Facebook.</p>

 

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<p>My apologies in advance for the length of this post. I'm still pretty upset about it. <br>

Last Sunday, I was "fired" from a wedding shoot because the bride perceived that I was taking advantage of a "friend." I am a customer of the bride's, have been for a couple of years. She runs a business that provides personal services for a fee. She liked my fine art photography, and we have traded her services for photographs on a couple of occasions. She has one of my photographs hanging at her business. <br>

In mid-September, she told me she was getting married in November and wanted to hire me as their photographer. Wedding photography is not my primary book of business, although I photograph corporate and community events. I've photographed a few weddings, all for friends or co-workers. I told her I would need details of her plans before I could give her an estimate, which would be discounted, and part of my fee could be a service trade, because of our friendly customer relationship. At that point, she didn’t know where the wedding or reception would be. I gave her my rate sheet on at least three occasions but had trouble putting together an estimate because her plans kept changing. The wedding date changed twice and she didn't have a location until three weeks before the wedding.<br>

By early November, she still didn’t know where or what time the wedding – now planned for the end of December – would be. She told me that she was not going to have a reception and would "probably" just have a courthouse wedding. I gave her a preliminary estimate of $650 for an hour at an engagement party, a two-hour portrait shoot in a city 20 miles from where we both live, a brief courthouse wedding, and two DVDs with images from the three shoots. She asked about black-and-white photography for the portraits. I told her that I would shoot in color, and then we can select photographs that lend themselves to black-and-white, sepia, or other treatments. She wanted a black-and-white photo for a wedding announcement she would send out in January. I also gave her a price for designing and printing the announcement.<br>

I advised her verbally that an hour for the party was unrealistic and that she should plan for two hours, which was written into our agreement, along with a Dec. 10 delivery date for the DVD. I didn't push her for a signed agreement (she misplaced two copies of it), because she gave me a partial payment at the party and her wedding plans were still not defined (my second mistake after taking on the job in the first place). I delivered a DVD and proof sheets in a binder, along with an invoice of $300 (less the $100 she paid me at the party) for two hours of photography (I actually photographed for three hours but charged her for two) and DVD. Two days after the portrait shoot, she asked if she could see the portrait photos by the next day because her fiancé was leaving (he lives in another state). I left her a return message saying that I had two other commitments and that was why I had Dec. 10 delivery in my preliminary estimate. I offered to burn a second DVD for her to mail to her fiancé.<br>

A week after the portrait shoot, I delivered DVDs with 110 images in both color and black-and-white, in high-resolution and web-sized. That was my third mistake because she told me on the day of the shoot that she only wanted black-and-white. I should have given her color images and asked her to choose two or three she wanted to see in black-and-white. I also delivered proof sheets of the color images, a revised invoice, two 5x7” B&W images of what I thought were the best in the group, and two color images in 5x7”. I charged her extra for the full set of high-res and web-sized black-and-white images in addition to the color. I didn’t charge her for the 5x7s. I later agreed to waive the extra processing charge because we hadn’t discussed it in advance.<br>

When I delivered the portrait photos, she told me that she was now planning a church wedding with a reception to follow in a community center. I told her that I would need to give her a revised estimate, because my first estimate was for a 15-30 minute courthouse shoot. I emailed her a revised estimate the next day with options of $300 for just the wedding or $500 for the wedding and reception. Either price would include a DVD with high resolution and web-sized images, along with proof sheets. <br>

A week later, I delivered a new contract for wedding photography and updated invoice for the work I have already done. I asked her to call me to discuss, because she was with a customer. She agreed to call me that evening.<br>

Instead, I received an email from her the following evening (last Sunday) saying that she could not afford to hire me for the wedding so my services where no longer needed. She also told me that she thought my first estimate was pretty high but that she went forward because we are “friends” and she knew that I was struggling financially. Now she is trying to get out of paying me for the work I have already done. She wants to subtract my revised estimate of $300 for wedding photography from my original estimate of $650 (for four hours of photography and two DVDs with up to 400 images in two different formats). I billed her $600 for four hours of shooting and two DVDs. She paid me $340 and we were going to trade services for the remainder. That’s not likely now. She still owes me $260.<br>

Although I do not have a signed contract, we had a verbal contract for the engagement party and engagement portraits. Now I have little recourse other than spending several hours seeking a solution in small-claims court. I am tempted to request that she pull the engagement photos off Facebook (she has ALL of my photos posted there). She really doesn’t have the right to post those photos. Lessons learned: assume nothing (including level of friendship), explain published rates, and get a signed agreement. Oh! And turn the job over to a photographer specializing in weddings. I don’t have event photos posted to Photo.net, so email me if you are curious about my work. Forum rules are that linking to my website is a no-no. Thank you for reading and thank you in advance for your advice. </p>

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