christian_harris1

<p>Tony, the question is ~"what has worked for you?"~</p>

<p>If you no longer feel comfortable handing the photos over, which is sounds as though you are not, then it's time to get something in writing. The two of you need to negotiate your receipt of the images you took and what rights you have to use them. If you guys end up agreeing that you can have copies but not use them on websites, business cards, etc. then at least it's in writing and clear. But I think your better bet is to aim for getting some pay (depending on how much both you and he value your work). Good luck!</p>

<p>That's fantastic, Amber! :) Best of luck to you and your successes!</p>

<p>So, I didn't read everyone's post here like I wanted to, but I do have some helpful thoughts on this. My business is fairly new and I am doing it on the side, but I am doing everything I can to make it a legitimate business in every way; I refuse to be "a guy I know who takes good pictures." The type of photography business you want to have (i.e., speaking most generally, studio or on-location) helps to determine the amount of money you will need to get things going...etc. etc.</p>

<p>But all of that isn't my point. Your original concern is over the state of the economy. I don't know where you heard it from but one thing is for sure, no matter how little business you do during the recession, if you work hard to hone your craft, get your name out there, and present yourself professionally at every turn, then people will remember you when economic times get better. And when that time comes, you will be an even better photographer and better business man when they finally turn to you.</p>

<p>Now this may take however long, so your bank account has to have the stones to back it up..but costs to run a business can be fairly minimal depending on how it's done, even if (worst case) you were to get no customers for some months. Generally speaking, stick to on-location work for starters since the overhead's so low, and supplemental costs such as business registration, equipment insurance, club/chamber memberships, etc. aren't backbreakers compared to the equipment it takes to run a versatile, high-quality studio.</p>

<p>With this approach, there's little reason to ever give up if you love what you do. The caveat is that keeping your day job [for now] may mean keeping a job that you hate, but would you rather have a job that you hate..or have a job that you hate while going after a dream that is sure to come true if you fight for it?</p>

<p>I think some people are misinterpreting the term "educate" in a lot of ways. It doesn't mean that you sit there and give them a long speech on the ins and outs of the business and technical aspects of photography. I agree that it's utmost important to get more information out of the client than you give to them; i.e., let them tell you about what they're looking for and what their needs are. It's WHEN AND IF these needs and desires conflict with what's possible or recommended that you inform them as simply as possible. For example, "I understand why you would want to have digital copies of the photos, but I do not release them to ensure that the reproduction of the images is handled professionally to preserve and cherish your moments as much as they deserve to be."<br>

Education also includes something as simple as showing examples of the albums or prints that they could be getting using images representative of the type of shoot they're interested in. Quite honestly, that's education that they deserve to have whether they ask for it or not; you want to ensure that they know what to expect of both your services and your talents.</p>

<p>Aimee, I'm a little uncertain what you mean when you say that people don't know; what is it that they don't knw in your eyes?</p>

<p>What I take from your story is that people are willing to settle; they put a priority on other things over spending the money to have photography done right. At the end of the day, they're satisfied with the essence of the photo that was taken; as long as they can show that off, then it matters less that there's a watermark on it.</p>

<p>I agree with Aimee as well. She wasn't the first to suggest it but elaborated that giving them an allowance is better since they get to choose what they get in return, not me. This also breaks me free from the worry of how my digital files are used, which I may give if asked but watermarked (I have the feeling they will want to post them on Facebook to share - more publicity).</p>

<p>Thanks, everyone..and I do mean everyone. :)</p>

<p><why do you think they'll care about what you want or need?> It's not a want or need thing, it's just *generally* how things go; people most of the time don't spread the word for the business' sake, they tell friends because they feel that their friends would value/benefit from it. This is why many consider "word-of-mouth" to be the best form of advertising.</p>

<p><offer it 'all' as additional 'free' stuff in return for every paying lead they generate amongst their friends></p>

<p>There would have to be an incredible amount of tact exercised in this approach, since I wouldn't want to make it seem like they have to do work. If they love what I have done for them, then they will spread the word. Also, in your statement to "offer it all", that still begs the question as to what 'it' really is. My blanket prediction is that younger generation people assume as-is digital copies whereas older generation people would assume a print package of some sort.</p>

<p><The title of your thread says a lot: "it's free, but it'll cost 'em". Kind of like "sticking it to them".> I agree that the title is misleading (and pretty harsh-sounding)...because I'm not trying to stick it to them. The issue is that whatever I give them, there will be things remaining that can be potentially sold. What is the proper balance that leaves them satisfied for taking the time but still leaves me with an opportunity to present them with the *option* for more?</p>

<p><Seems like to be fair, they should get the pictures they like> You answered this question, Eric, but for the record "get them in what form?" is the essential question.</p>

<p><They should be able to walk away with something nice without forking over ANY cash.> Totally agree. Which is why I've posed the question as to what that something should be. I might be fine with a moderately sized gallery wrap, a couple of 8x10's, and a collection of 4x6's, for instance.</p>

<p><Is there anyone else out there who thinks that someone isn't going to make a larger print if they want to because the resolution isn't high enough?> Yeah, that's definitely part of the dilemma as well. If I hand over low-res, then they may blow them up to sizes that make the images look unfavorable, thereby weakening my name. Even at high-res, the danger of any photog giving away digitals is that anyone other than a photog likely won't take the care to ensure the quality of the final product (color management, frame selection, preservation, etc.). I've seen the photobooks from the local Ritz Camera, and I am not impressed.</p>

<p><I think you have to consider what their 'future' photography needs may be.> Yeah, this is part practice, part marketing. Their own personal needs are limited for now, but they can spread the word...definitely a factor in this decision that leans me towards giving them more rather than less.</p>

<p>Ok, so it seems as though some people are misinterpreting what I posted; you offered to do it for free is too simple of an answer since "it" could be a range of different things and my question essentially is how best to define that "it."<br>

I only stated the scenario of only donating my time for free as a most extreme case on one end...one that I, without a doubt, wouldn't present to them. The issue here is that "do the session for free" can mean different things to different people. Some familiar with photographers will indeed assume that only the sitting fee is waived (i.e., the extreme case mentioned above), while others will presumptively look forward to both the session and high-res digital copies as a part of the deal. Others may assume that they are getting my standard portrait session package as it is defined on my site, while others would be happy getting a single 8x10 out of the deal.<br>

Either way, I've stated in my messages to them that I would like to meet them ahead of time to "discuss details" - the plan being to be sure we're clear on what they're getting (for instance, the session as well as, say, 10 5x7's and 1 8x10). No matter how much I give them for free, I can always try to sell other things to them as well, for instance giving them that package but them subtly presenting to them that I also sell photobooks, gallery wraps, etc. However, there is a such thing as handing over too much; handing over a 20pg custom-designed album, 3 20x30 gallery wraps, 20 8x10's, 45 5x7's, and high-res digital copies for them to have at it would be pretty excessive, in my eyes. Not only does that remove all leverage for upselling, but it's far more than what they are expecting to get, I'm sure; with a kitty that size, I'd have to have a wealth of confidence in they're ability to then be ambassadors for my business and, quite frankly, I don't know them that well. <br>

So the fundamental question I'm posing is how little is too little to give (in the mind of someone hearing the words "I'll do the session for free"), and how much is too much? I will reiterate that the whole point of us meeting ahead of time is to discuss what they will be getting for their time, and ultimately get those agreements in writing before the shoot.<br>

Thank you for your comments.</p>

<p>I've tapped a couple to photograph for practicing some techniques and have offered to do it for free. We've been playing tag in terms of pinning down a day for us to meet and then the actual shoot, so we've yet to discuss terms and such.<br /><br />My question is this, at minimum, I will be giving my time for free but want to leave room to sell them on something (i.e., prints, books, framed work, etc.) should the experiment prove positive. While we will thoroughly discuss everything ahead of time, I don't want them to feel as though I took the time to take some great photos of them but that they can't have any of them without paying. However, I do not want to hand over a CD and rob myself of any selling power either.<br /><br />What do you guys think would be an appropriate balance...? That is, how to give them enough to let them feel as though they've walked away with something reasonable for their time yet just enough to get their appetite whet for more. I think this is a little different than doing TFP with models since they're using those prints/digitals to build their portfolio; a couple is potentially interested in so many more things. What's the limit to what you would offer?<br>

Thanks,<br>

Christian</p>

<p>Steve, it wouldn't be a big mess in that case: you either have a pre-set price for adding additional thank you pictures or you stick to the 100 and let the chips fall where they may.</p>

<p>I understand where everyone's coming from, but most professional photographers put their logo, signature, or copyright notice in the corner of their prints...especially the larger ones. Of course, it shouldn't be distracting, but you want to make sure the message is clear that you own the image and the rights associated with copying and distributing. It's not meant to serve as an advertisement, it's simply further protection.<br>

At the very least, be sure to educate the customer or what their usage rights are, and/or include brief literature on copyright information. If you're running a business, you want to do everything you can to keep them from reprinting on their own (without scaring them), because if they do, then what reason do they have to come back.</p>

<p>Yeah, I think you're more than talented enough to charge $200 or more for these. Are there any local schools and universities that you could tap for acting students?</p>

<p>My day job company is huge and has a policy in place specifically for cases like this. Bottom line, if you offer a service and perform that service on company grounds/time, then you are performing that service as an employee of the company, not your own. In other words, I volunteer to photograph various things (though company pays for materials/rentals, if needed) because I love photography and don't take much pleasure in sitting at my desk. Anything off-site, like the company Christmas party, I get paid for through the use of one of my contracts.<br>

If you love photography more than your standard responsibilities and the company is willing to provide the resources you need to get the job done, then I say there's no loss here for stuff on company time. I wouldn't sue them for labor; I would merely ask them to reimburse you for any expenses you incurred to do the shoot. If you didn't incur any expenses, let it go; you worked for them and performed a task for them, so most often, those photos are theirs not yours (not even mutually). In the end, all of my running around work taking photos has gotten me business, because people start to take notice and look to me when they need a photographer.<br>

Good Luck,<br>

Crimson Fox Photography</p>

<p><In the modern day of email, internets, and "have it on my desk two hours ago" is film still a viable medium for professional photographers? ><br>

One nuance that I feel has not been spoken of in all of these responses yet is that people are willing to wait some time for quality photos...depending on the type of photography. Most wedding couples realizes that there will be a wait (weeks, or so); high school seniors are likely much more anxious. Ultimately, as long as you get quality imagery with a system that works for them and it's genuinely justified in their mind, then the right clients will almost certainly come.</p>

<p>Kristen, I think you understand my concern for the most part, but I just want to clarify one thing to some of the others: in no way do I take pleasure in bullying anyone into buying my products and services. Aggressive salesmanship is the father of buyer's remorse and the last thing a photographer needs is for their subjects to be on edge during a photoshoot. I want them to feel that they have made the right decision.</p>

<p>But, they can not make that decision wisely if they do not have all of the information. What happens when someone asks for the price of something is that they have a presumptive image in their head as to what they will be getting. They ask for price partly because it's the most commonly relatable question to ask..and perhaps the wrong question if the company offers some innovative things. </p>

<p>A good salesman doesn't pressure anyone, they simply inform the prospective buyer of the product/service's value. Go back 15 years and tell someone that you can sell them a phone for $300, they'd be gone before you got to the last syllable; tell them that it plays music, takes pictures, does email and internet, and can even provide a map of where they are and directions...if they can afford it, they WILL buy it - all because you took the time to explain it to them. In the end, if the customer doesn't want it or can't afford it then so be it, but at least they've now made that decision given a clear picture of what they would be getting (compared to "$300 for a mesely phone?!").</p>

<p>Fred,<br>

I know what my pricing is. I have no issue with working out how much to charge to ensure that I make profit and why. Given what my costs are, my price to the people may be a little more than some would care to take part in...but I offer a lot of value with the package, so if I have the time to pitch it, people will buy (but at a party like this, I won't have the time to pitch it all, and that's the problem).<br>

To Eric: My pricing isn't complex in the least bit: two prices for portrait sessions, depending on group size; three packages for weddings; beyond extreme caveats, it really is that simple. But I will undoubtedly scare some people away if I state price and price alone...people who I could very well close the sale on as long as the conversation doesn't stop there. What matters most is what they would be getting for their money and I won't have the time to discuss this with people while shooting. So my issue here is how to be honest without coming across as deliberately elusive.<br>

Thanks,<br>

Christian</p>

<p>

This isn't a question of pricing, per se...more so how best to reveal it, but here goes:

<br />

How does everyone here handle questions about pricing when you're out in public or on a gig? My roommate is having a birthday party in the park for her son on Saturday. I will be taking photos and just know that parents will be asking if they can get a copy of the photos and, more generally, how much my sitting fee (and other prices) is. I'm cautious as to what my answer should be on these.<br /><br />One thought I've had, concerning attendees of event photoshoots such as this getting copies, is to hand over prints (or heavily watermarked digital copies) if and only if they come in for a consultation and/or book a session. As for what my sitting fee is, if I give out my price right then and there, then they'll leave the party with just the number in their head and not so much what I could do to meet their individual needs. Multiple parents will be there so I would hate to steer away one couple with information that's directed towards another or is too general.<br /><br />So, I know all of this, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to say. One thought is to simply be upfront and tell them that it would be best that we sat down one-on-one, but I don't want to sound like I'm being dodgy or trying to entrap anyone. And I don't want to make it seem as though I am open to significantly negotiating price, because I'm not...not significantly. Any thoughts?

__________________<br />Thank You,<br /><p><b>URL signature removed, not allowed on photo.net.</b>