g.e._masana

<p>>>Don't you think that perhaps you're taking your by the pound analogy a little too far? I think that most clients are sophisticated enough to realize that different photographers (even ones with identical packages as far as "things" that you get) have different skill levels and styles.>><br /> <br /> I've probably dealt with thousands of inquiries over the last several decades. I still get a few emails a week from brides listing their laundry list and asking for a price. I look at my stats and I see they never even perused through my site; they came upon it in a google search and after literally a scant few seconds in which they perhaps viewed my home page slideshow (and I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt that they did that) they went right to my contact page. And then they exit the site. They're emailing me a form letter. It's evident that all they're doing is looking for a lower price than the last guy quoted them and that they're hitting more than just me.<br /> <br /> So it's typically not a matter that they're seeking more experience, skill set or a certain style or a personality. They're not showing any sign of looking for anything like that. It's more like they come upon any photographer and it's a matter of, "let's ask what his price is". They don't even look at my info page to see what my prices may be - they go right to emailing me their form letter!<br /> <br /> Juanita and Maria, I've been immersed in this industry since 1981 and have in that time, not only run my own successful practice, but have written articles for photography journals; I've been profiled in both Studio Photography and Rangefinder magazines; I even have a book about marketing wedding photography I was approached to write for a trade publisher that's enjoyed publication since 1994. I've been hired as a consultant for other photographers in that time as well. What I write about is drawn from my observations and experience over all that time, with a ton of thought and insight behind it.<br>

With all due respect, you don't know this business like I know this business, do you? <br /> <br /> I was lurking on two other photographer forums, and both of them, coincidentally, had threads running asking the question, "what happened to the more established pros that used to post here?" The replies shed some light as others answered along the lines of "they probably got tired of posting their expertise only to have those newer to the industry belittle their advice and figured 'why the heck should I bother posting here anymore'". And that's how I'm beginning to feel, truthfully. I was wondering why Jeff Ascough doesn't post here regularly.</p>

<p>But Maria, nothing in your reply to me negates my tried and true professional experience (not just my"opinion") that when someone asks the kind of questions you presented, it's typically about them shopping around for a bid, and efforts by pros to educate the consumer are typically lost on them as that's not a concern to those folks.</p>

 

<p>>> I'd love to hear some perspective on how one should start out.>><br /> <br /> Though there are different paths to entry because it's a big wide world and people do whatever they want anyway, good, bad or indifferent, and sometimes it could even work out... rather than enter that way and hope one is among the lucky few who may succeed and have things fall into place, I think the best model is the same we see with designers, hair stylists, attorneys and others who first work for a firm, build a following and reputation and then, once well versed in the industry, feel the need to venture out on their own to determine their own path. Perhaps leaving to the dismay of their employers, but sometimes the birdies have to leave the nest.<br /> <br /> Their time learning the ropes helped them avoid years re-inventing the wheel; their time with the employer also helped build their reputation by association. When they set out, they're more likely to have name recognition, command more of a profitable professional fee, certainly have developed expertise and skills and not be cutting their teeth at their clients' expense.</p>

<p>When I see a question like that, I don't believe that educating the consumer to comprehend what's behind the price nor the nuances between photographers and products means much, if anything at all, to them. In my experience, what they're doing is shopping for a bid. By virtue of their specs, they obviously know of available sizes and product offerings, and that's usually because they've already spoken with studios, gotten some product knowledge and have drafted up this wish list of the items they want. They probably even already have gotten prices on it from the photographers they've met, and now, all they want is to find a lesser price bid. <br /> <br /> I call it "shopping for photography by the pound". Their actions denote that they think all photographers are the same, that just the prices differ. To them, it's never about what makes up the price, but only about the price. It's the same thinking behind why buy eggs at 3.99 a dozen when another store carries eggs for 2.99 a dozen, see? There's no difference, eggs are eggs, right? Instead of understanding it's more like: why buy a Mercedes s class for $60,000 when you can buy a used Yugo for about $500. There's no difference, cars are cars, right?</p>

<p>Juanita, it seems you took my post way too personally, but not only that, you appear to be twisting my post around to a negative spin. In so doing, you're also not really getting the right understanding of my points.<br /> <br /> >> You'll get a lecture from the established photographers about how "you'll kill your referral business if you charge less" but to be frank this is just a way for them to make sure that you NEVER get ANY >><br /> <br /> So why do you think established photographers give that advice to people they're mentoring? You think they're lying to them? Or is it possibly because it's true that low price buyers will likely refer other low price buyers who will then probably not book at your higher rates?<br /> <br /> >>GE insinuated (but did not directly say) that I was like Wal Mart.>><br /> <br /> That's one example of what I mean of putting a negative spin on my words. Go back and read that paragraph of mine and you see I'm talking about low price strategy and the "many" who use it, adding that "We [note the word "we"] cannot be Walmart, we're individual shooters", meaning that Walmart's business model of lower prices is profitable for Walmart but doesn't work for us individuals.<br /> <br /> Writing thast I "insinuated" something about you personally is highly dramatic language. But let me ask you: What do you have against Walmart anyhow that you would respond as if a comparison to them was such a terrible thing? They're a major corporation and a legendary company in U.S. Business history, a virtual rags to riches story.<br /> <br /> One example was all I wished to touch upon, I don't see the need to respond to all your spins.<br /> <br /> Wishing you the best of luck and one last piece of advice: in this business, it helps to have thicker skin.</p>

<p>Juanita, sounds like you're booking people based on charging half as much as others, as you say, which is why posting your prices online doesn't work against you, but rather, works because it attracts the price shoppers.<br>

My "style" is different than yours, as you note, because I don't compete based on price. I charge way more than many, but I create a product that is recognized as one of the finest around. A price-shopper type of bride would never appreciate what I do enough to pay for it, as one put it "I can only dream" [about booking me] but my target market is seeking people like me. So my selling involves other factors, price being the least of it.<br>

If the lowest price attracted lots of business, then the lowest priced photographer would get all the work. But they don't, and in fact, many get into financial debacles because of their thin profit margins and go out of business. We're not Walmart, we're individual laborers. Since we have to pay for our life expenses, business expenses, vacations, health insurance, equipment and business purchases, taxes, plus fund our retirement - plus have a business profit left so we can grow, the low price model, in the long term, doesn't work for us. One could just get a 9-5 job and make the same money and not have all the concerns involved with running a business.<br>

Well, when you get into a category where it's not about low price, you don't have the low price factor working for you. Like a mentor once told me, "if you have a low price, you just show the couple your stuff and basically say: you want it or not? But you'd better be doing 1,000 weddings a year."<br>

Eventually your price increases will bring you into a new demographic. Your previous customers will refer people to you, but those referrals will balk at paying the higher prices. How will you appeal then to the new demographic to obtain new customers and stay in business?</p>

 

<p>If you insist on legal documents being signed off on by the vendors, you're effectively creating an obstacle in your path.</p>

<p>Just an edit to my last paragraph: when people take a stall (take "no") for an answer, it's exactly because they don't take it as a "no" but see it as the sale still being alive, so they go along with it.</p>

<p> <em> I wrote: a stall is merely an outward device that they find makes easier to express their inner decision<br /> <br /> You responded: Somewhat true, yet a professional knows the difference between a (reflex) objection, sometimes a stall..and a real objection.<br /> </em> <br /> I'm saying that I have redefined what up to now professionals have been told is an objection and what is a stall.<br /> <br /> <em> I wrote: when the guru methods don't work any better then what was happening before,<br /> <br /> You wrote: Before what?</em> <br /> <br /> Meaning, the results they were getting prior to using the methods taught to them by the sales gurus.<br /> <br /> I<em> wrote: But if we deal with it as if they're actually telling us "No",<br /> <br /> You wrote:Many people really do not mean no. Most humans are wishy washy.<br /> They are not saying no, they are saying "You have not given me enough of or the right information I need to say yes.</em> <br /> <br /> I'm saying that rather than see their stall as meaning "I need more information", as the sales gurus teach, which is what you're also indicating, I choose to see their stall as meaning "No". Understand that I have knowingly changed what the gurus teach. <br /> <br /> I have changed the assumption. Rather than assuming the person, by stalling, is signifying that they need more information to say 'yes', I am assuming that by stalling, the person is saying 'no' and further, that they have made a decision that results in their saying 'no'. They just don't verbalize the word 'no' but give you an excuse to cover it.<br /> <br /> I understand this is not the standard sales bible stuff, so you need not correct me into what the going standard sales knowledge is :)<br /> <br /> Let me illustrate my point some more:<br /> <br /> A stall is not an objection. I think we all agree on that. An objection is some concern that blocks the prospect from doing business, such as, "I'm not sure you can handle an order of this size". But a stall is more of an outright attempt to block the sale, such as. "I have to think it over"<br /> <br /> The Ziglars of the world tell us that we have to uncover the reason the person is stalling. They'll tell us that it has to do with the person fearing they may be making a bad decision. "What if I'm overpaying?" "What if there's something better out there?" "What if I'm wrong?"<br /> <br /> I'm telling you it's not that. I'm saying a stall is the manifestation of a decision they already made; a decision not to do business with you. And you're probably not going to uncover the real reason, though you may be told secondary reasons and/or given excuses.<br /> <br /> They made that decision somewhere in the process after you said "hello" and before they told you they had to think it over.<br /> They're not going to usually tell you the real reason because it will make them uncomfortable to do so. For example:<br /> If you're more then they thought they'd spend and they don't want to spend the money, they don't want to come off as cheap or poor so they may not admit to it. It's far easier to say "we have to think it over".<br /> <br /> If you have bad breath and a bunch of nasal hairs sticking out of your nose with a little drip on it, they're not going to tell you it's because your appearance disgusted them, they're sure not going to tell you that they're disgusted by your appearance and don't want you at the wedding. It's easier to say "I have to talk it over with mom".<br /> If they think your photos are not of the best quality, they won't wish to hurt your feelings, so its easier to say "I'll get back to you".<br /> <br /> I'm saying if you take their stall as meaning "No", you don't go spinning your wheels trying to uncover the uncoverable from someone who's already decided against you.<br /> <br /> You see, someone who does want to do business with you isn't going to say "I have to talk it over with my mother-in-law" or "I have to think it over".<br /> They're going to say "Great! Well, what do you think, hun? I'm good! Okay! What do we do next?"<br /> <br /> I'm saying if they say anything like "I have to think it over", assume you've lost the sale.<br /> <br /> <em>>> I see many people, not just photographers, in a service & sales industry who don't know how to handle objections or sell; many don't even try..they just take "no" for an answer. >></em> <br /> <br /> Right. But I'm not necessarily saying take no for an answer. I'm saying when you understand the answer to be "no", when you assume you've lost the sale, then instead of wasting your time going with the by-the-book popular sales strategies that won't uncover anything real from a person who's now decided against you, there's another tact. I just don't wish to give those tacts away because it took me lots of years and understanding human psychology and implementing it to get there. In a way, it's analogous to this: If I find myself on a sinking ship, in the water, holding onto a piece of debris and assume that I'm dead meat, what would I have to do to give myself the chance to make it out of there alive?</p>

<p>>> This is where we all need to learn "How to overcome objections."<br /> <br /> Thinking it over is a stall, a dodge. There is a reason they need to "Think it over"..Find out!>><br /> <br /> Good post, sir! <br /> <br /> My "have to talk it over with the in-laws" is indeed a "stall" not an objection. But I've thrown out a good part of the Zig Ziglars, Joe Girards and Jeff Gitomers, because their wisdom is about uncovering reasons for stalls, and I say, a stall is merely an outward device that they find makes easier to express their inner decision, ALREADY made, not to book the photographer. <br /> <br /> This is why, IMO, all the sales expert gurus' who advocate exploring for the reason for the stall succeeds only in positioning yourself for sales failure and continued frustration when the guru methods don't work any better then what was happening before, because they'll back up that excuse with another and yet another, rather than say the uncomfortable truth (such as, "your pictures suck" or "you have bad breath" or "you have overflowing nasal hairs" or "you're great but we're cheap"), and the more you try to uncover, the more they'll make up until they're caught in a lie ("but you told me earlier that the decision was up to you and no one else", for example) or call it quits and say they have to run. Joe Girard sold cars in the 1970s or so, was a top salesperson, did write a best seller, true, true, and some principles persist, yet since then, those *tactics* have worn thin. Just like there was a time when sticking your foot in the door actually worked but no longer does. Or telling someone they have a nice face and that you like them so you're gonna make 'em a great deal. We've had decades of it and we see it coming. It doesn't work anymore.<br /> <br /> Here's an example of what those guys advocate we do, applied to our industry:<br /> <br /> PROSPECT: "Well, I have to talk all this over with my mother-in-law"<br /> PHOTOGRAPHER: "That's fine! I'm sure you want her to make the best decision, right?"<br /> PROSPECT: "Absolutely".<br /> PHOTOGRAPHER: "In that case, she'd need all the facts, wouldn't she? Being an intelligent person, she'll probably come up with some questions of her own, won't she?"<br /> PROSPECT: "No doubt".<br /> PHOTOGRAPHER: "Well then, I should be there to provide the correct answers for her, shouldn't I? When's the best time for all of us to meet?"<br /> PROSPECT: "I don't know. She's away. On a cruise".<br /> PHOTOGRAPHER: "Okay. When will she be back?"<br /> PROSPECT: "You know, I'm not exactly sure. And I think she's leaving to visit her sister in California after she comes back. Isn't that right, honey? I don't know how long she's going to be away for".<br /> PHOTOGRAPHER: "How about if I check in with you in a couple of weeks?"<br /> PROSPECT: "Sure!" [planning on not answering the phone when the Photographer calls anyway]<br /> <br /> Uncovering what? It goes nowhere.<br /> <br /> But if we deal with it as if they're actually telling us "No", as in they've made the decision silently, mentally - then we know where we stand and go from there. I'm not going to give away the gold here, but suffice it to say you need to determine, not an underlying reason for the stall, but if they're being sincere about their stall or not.<br /> <br /> It's just the way it is because of human nature. It is psychology.</p>

<p>Chances are, if you responded with prices, all she would've done is compare prices without any consideration as to any other factors whatsoever such as skill, experience, quality, execution, service. It's as if they're purchasing photography by the pound. That she responded by saying she's already booked a photographer could very well just be her way of blowing you off because she has someone else in mind. Odds are slim that within 48 hours of inquiring of photographers, such as yourself, she went to making an appointment, keeping that appointment and booking the photographer.<br /> <br /> True, there's this "I-Want-It-Now" entitlement mind-set out there and many vendors are catering to that, thus enabling that behavior. But it's nothing new, back in the day before emails, same thing happened with phone inquiries. I used to drop everything to answer the phone and schedule appointments to accommodate their a.s.a.p. must-have-it-now requests, and the lesson I learned was: these folks will run you ragged and make your life subject to their whims. I found it's no way to live nor work. yeah, they're in a big hurry to make appointments, they want to book now they say, but then when they see you it becomes "well I have to think it over - I have to discuss this with my in-laws - I have six more photographers I'm seeing - I'm leaving for a vacation next week and will decide in a month after I come back" and other such stalls. Sound familiar to anyone?<br /> <br /> Fundamentally, to be on demand to email back and call back within moments infers on a gut level that one is very available, with nothing else keeping them busy, and anyone behaving as if you are so available means they have little regard for you, meaning that they see you as just a commodity. If 50 photographers are indeed jumping over each other like salmon striving to mate or die to be the first to respond, then there's no foundation for a bride to respect them and if she's of the mind-set that these professionals ought to be so subject to her whims, then on the wedding day and afterwards one should not expect that she'll abide by your policies or directions, as you'll continue to be subjected to her whims.<br /> <br /> Now, same bride wouldn't dare think to have several doctors rush to return her call, nor attorneys, nor accountants. She's too busy for a short phone call? GEICO would go out of business. They don't stop to eat something in their busy day that they can't also make a call? Really? They don't take bathroom breaks or have work breaks or go out for a smoke or have a lunch break or take a moment to text their fiance or BFF? They take moments to compose emails, they take some moments to peruse web sites, they can't take a moment to call right before work or right after work or sneak away for five minutes? Don't they gab some with workmates chewing the breeze during the day and have time for that? They don't call their doctors and dentists and nail salons for appointments? What happens if the emergency room calls to tell them their mother had a heart attack, they can't take the call because they're so busy? They're looking for someone to perform a service that results in a lifetime long product with no do-overs but they can't invest just a few moments to call the person they may hand that responsibility over to?<br>

I'm saying it's a certain market demographic that sees photographers as just a 'thing" to have at their wedding, a commodity, and give more priority to other "things". Bet there are others they do call.<br /> <br /> I think of how the bride emails me, I ask her to call me, she may tell me she's awfully busy. But - the right bride then finds the time to call me. She may ask if she can call me that evening, after work, or that weekend. She'll look to set up a phone time. The other type of bride just won't.<br /> <br /> Chances are if they buck and stall and run circles with email after email, IOW waste time, these are not the best prospects. I think one has to get away from the idea that all inquiries need to turn into appointments, and when you see behavior such as you described, you've effectively used email to weed out the low interest leads that would've probably gone nowhere but spin your wheels.<br /> <br /> Now, of course someone will post about the exceptions. But I can tell you that the exceptions make it through because just as you can lead a bride to water but can't make it drink, the right bride will drink even if you don't lead it to. IOW, they help you when they're sufficiently interested and when they really want something, you basically can't stop them.<br /> <br /> One more idea is: it's not that you didn't make an offer, but it may be that your reply didn't interest her sufficiently to get back to you, if indeed she was that interested to begin with. Yes, brides will contact you even if they're not all that interested: they do reconnaissance work (the fact that she emailed you an extensive essay about her wedding plans suggests to me it was a form letter rather than retyping everything every time she wants to email a photographer) so she was probably just emailing everyone listed everywhere until someone responded and then she shut herself off. Just looking for a thing.<br /> <br /> That doesn't mean she'll book that person, though. Try her again in a couple of weeks.<br /> That is, if you really want a customer who doesn't care about the difference between you and Adam.</p>

<p>Under "Fair Use", it's legal to show someone else's photo to illustrate something about it, such as what could be done to salvage it in photoshop. And if the OP's having a lawsuit with the photographer cautions not showing the photo here, nor stating details, then it also warrants not having a thread discussing the issue here.</p>

<p>I think you could ask for - and probably get a judgment for - ALL your money back.<br>

As far as photoshopping, it may work up to a degree.</p>

<p>Still appears magenta-cast to me. Find some images of skin tones to use as role models and keep them handy to compare. Skin tones are often adjusted by commercial and fashion photographers, skim their sites for image ideals. If your eyes get tired working on images, take time off to come back refreshed.</p>

<p>First off, a big kudos to you for even realizing that skin tones are something to think about... I see so many blog posts of shots where the skin tones are all over the place and you know those brides are not magenta skinned.<br>

You assessed correctly that you need more yellow. You may know that there actually is a recipe of sorts when it comes to skin. Caucasian calls for equal to a bit more yellow then magenta and way less cyan then magenta depending on taste.<br>

In LR, you may use an adjustment brush to paint in color and that should take care of getting it where you want it. I find more control over the process in Photoshop, both in the brush control and in the exact degree of hue, via curves or selective color, painting it in via a layer mask if you need to. As per the attached.<br>

Then getting the additional red out of her cheeks: that's done with a hue & saturation adjustment.</p><div></div>

<p>>>Sounds to me like you are a "runaway" rather than an orphan.>><br /> <br /> Oh, she may have used a shoot-n-burner who doesn't bother with albums because "they're too much work".<br /> <br /> I had a client who didn't contract her studio to create her album; yeras later, she turned to me. Here's another wrinkle to taking on those assignments:<br /> <br /> It's not just designing the album, it's also about remastering all the images in it, hoping that the shooter nailed it right. You don't want to be fixing bad shots.<br /> And hopefully, you have great images to depict the story with, otherwise it just becomes a jumbled assortment of wedding pictures, like a scrapbook, without rhyme or reason. <br /> When you're not the shooter, all that's out of your hands.</p>

<p>They don't look like Actions to me. There wouldn't be a one-action-fits-all images magic pill. simplybloomphotography appears to be using tecture overlays and that in itself lends color cast to the underlying image. The other photographer seems to be tweaking their colors, probably in PS.<br /> <br /> But "timeless"? I don't think so.</p>

<p>I first posted at 500 px wide, but the subjects and details in the image appeared so small how would it be able to be seen and judged fairly?</p>

<p>RT's post reminds me of the time a groom-to-be told me the way he sees it, Volkswagon and Mercedes were made from the same parts, reasoning why should he pay for a Mercedes when he could buy a Volkswagon.<br /> <br /> At the time, we were sitting in his apartment, which was a tiny apartment tucked into a basement. But to be fair, it was made of sheet rock, timber and paint, same stuff a penthouse apartment on Park Avenue is made out of, so what's the difference, right?</p>

<p>>> At what price you think it's reasonable to charge client if we print at mpix (size 4x6) >><br /> <br /> It's mostly what's on that 4x6 that's of value, no? If I go to a lawyer and he writes up a legal document, he's not going to base his fee on how much the paper cost. If I go to a doctor and get a shot, he's not going to base the office visit fee on how much the medicine costs. If I buy a painting from an artist, he doesn't charge me based on how much his oil paints cost. Monte Zucker, among others, charged the same for a 4x5 as well as an 11x14, So the question is really, "what price do you think is reasonable to charge your client for your work?"</p>

<p>had to resize the submission...</p><div></div>

<p>This may sound crazy, but I came to think that I actually wanted more time to accomplish the portrait work (of bride & groom basically, not family groups), that the photo session should be anticipated as one of the highlights of the wedding day rather than the what-we-squeeze-in-between-this-and-that, and so, I've been asking for - and getting - about two hours for all the sessions, just to give me all the time to keep going, use as many spots as possible, do off-camera-light setups and run around and what not... I'm actually coming in now prepped with sketches of ideas, but open to what presents itself... and thus, creating more. What a pleasure it is!</p>

<p>I wouldn't box myself by putting a specific deadline on a contract. I know a photog. who's done just that and is now stressing. Give ranges of time instead to permit for worst case scenarios. Ah, Rome wasn't built in a day after all, despite the project manager's optimistic timeline.<br>

But to address your current situation, call each customer and explain it to them in terms of how they will benefit by permitting you an extension so that you may have the needed time to treat their assignment. Be careful not to give the incorrect impression that if they don't grant permission that their work will suffer; more along the truthful lines that just as Rome wasn't built in a day, you're finding that taking a little time than you anticipated yields more attention given to their photos.</p>

<p>So low budget photographers are to include everything a higher budget photographer does? So if the customer next demand a higher end leather album for the contracted price, he should comply?<br /> <br /> You know, back in the film days, major retouching was an additional expense, even with high end photographers. Just because we need not pay a retoucher to do the work nowadays and may be able to do it ourselves does not mean it's a given that it's included, especially if one is a low end photographer. Don't fault the guy for not charging enough, the fault is in his not setting terms. <br /> <br /> I just finished an assignment where the groom had a cut above his eye and I retouched all the affected images, but then, I get paid nice dollars to retouch just about everything. But do you believe people get what they pay for? If you really believe people get what they pay for, then this low budget photographer is absolutely fine delivering a product without retouching, isn't he?. <br /> <br /> Or do you think a budget photographer should deliver an equivalent product to your higher priced goods?</p>

<p>>>they didn't use the box to bounce the flash.>><br /> <br /> The soft box is not really bouncing so much as it's more a shoot-through softener. Which makes me think Ms. Star must've been in a small room, because that's going to cut down the amount of light traveling to the subjects on the dance floor. Plus, as it will only light the area in front of it, are you going to plan on waltzing every one over to where you have the softbox set up all night long?</p>