marleft

Restoring internal peace<div></div>

To Ellis and PN

 

Thank you Ellis, thank you PN

 

For encouraging this discussion by proposing a new very interesting aspect of back stories:

 

UNIVERSE, THE GREATEST BACK STORY OF ALL TIMES

 

But first let us kindly wait for our friends Fred and Ali to complete their dialogue

Fred

 

I don't want to disturb your dialogue with Ali, but let me clarify the meaning of some words I have used, in order to avoid misunderstandings.

 

When I am driving and I am thinking how I will find my way back to home, or when I am working out a mathematical problem and so on, it's me who is thinking in order to find a solution to a practical problem of my life. So, I don't mean this "I" or "me" or "ego" and these "thoughts" which have to be understood and stopped, but the psychological ones. Thoughts of superiority or inferiority, or thoughts to find ways in order to beat others and so on, you know what I mean?Sorry for interfering.

Dear Fred and Ali

In order to help your dialogue I put here the discussion we had with Ali under my photo "METAMORPHOSIS" at my "Trilogy of human behaviour" and "Restoring inner peace" sections of my portofolio:

 

"Marios Lefteriotis

 

You see Alibek, we are what our thoughts are. By changing them we can change ourselves to the better

 

Ali Soltani Farani, May 24, 2007; 09:12 A.M.

 

I agree with you on the thought issue, and even go one step further to say that we are our thoughts, so a change in our thoughts is a change in us as you said, but to me thought comes from the past and so I am the past and as long as I am -through my thoughts -living in the past I am dead, so the end of thought is the birth of the true me, yet I shall not try to end thought because I can see that it is impossible since I am thought. Through seeing with out the conflicts of thought one may see what thought truly is and what "I" is and then only through this seeing thought and thus the "I" may vanish all at once, leaving the truth of humanity in us to take action, and that action is the action of love in its most true face.

 

lovely PS work; Congrats.

Regards. Ali.

 

Marios Lefteriotisphoto.net patron, May 24, 2007; 04:18 P.M. (edit | delete)

 

My friend Ali Thank you for starting this discussion. I agree with you or, I should say, with J.Krishnamurti who all his life was teaching what you have just said. By changing thoughts, I meant changing intentions, changing our minds and the way we see life.. (there is a very beautiful word in Greek for that). But I want to go a step further and say that in order to succeed in all these, we need a terrible amount of energy inside us in order to have a continuous self awareness and we can not do it by ourselves. So we must admit that we are weak human beings and we need help. I don't want to continue, in order to let other friends to state their oppinion on all these.

 

Ali Soltani Farani, May 28, 2007; 05:53 P.M.

 

Hi Marios!

 

J.K has inspired many and that's great.

I doubt our need for help Marios, although I agree with you on the point that we need a great deal of energy in order to be aware of our "I"s always. Well let us see where our energies are being wasted.

There is the continuous activity of thought, even when we are asleep waring away our minds and wasting loads of energy . Let us look at the true nature of thought and how it works. But J.K says that the observer is the observed; so let us look at thought without the presumed fact that there is such a thing as my thought. Maybe, just maybe, I am thought. Maybe this is a prior question: am I thought? Well who is called me? is it my feelings? is it my body? maybe it' s my body and mind. That is in fact an answer, many would argue over. When I say I, do I refer to my body and mind or is it something else that I refer to?

There are so many bodies and minds all over the world; would I be prepared to take the fate of my friend who just had a bad car accident or do I say "Thank god is wasn't me". Which one? if I refers to my body and mind then what makes me think that my body and mind is superior?

There is a better counter example. let's say someone insults me by perhaps saying something along the lines of "you freaking bastard". I know that I am not a bastard, yet many of us are hurt by such happenings and that shows that what we identify as "I" is not our body nor is it our mind. So what is "I"? This beautiful question is maybe the answer to all our miseries and mischiefs. Just this question?

 

What is I?

 

The I that is sometimes scared, sometimes fearful, maybe he/she is courageous, maybe clever, good looking. I love asking this question, it is so helpful; just asking it. Maybe at the moment of asking the mind is free of the I;

 

We make images, of everything and settle them down in our memories. Sometimes we take them out of memory and change them in our minds as if we have a PS in there that manipulates the images we have of the past, of people in the past. Our memories acting like a hard disk full of images of the past and our PS software doing all the manipulations and then saving them, and then loading new images, manipulating and saving again; sometimes importing new images.

We make images of our selves; Perhaps this starts at a very young age; your playing soccer and you score two or three goals, and your team mates encourage you and you make an image of the me that is good at football. why? because it was a happy moment and the mind likes to repeat that happiness by watching and manipulating that image. That is the pleasure that our memory gives to us, and our memory gives us fear too. Yes our memory gives us fear too. Well who is this guy doing all the PS work? loading the images and manipulating them. Who is the software? That is what we all call thought. The act of entering our memory and doing all the PS work. Its our thought; but is it not me, loading images out of my memory and then manipulating them? It is. Its me. I am thought. Yet thought has made an image of me and put it inside my memory and all the time it fools me (or I fool me) telling me that the "I" is my body, my mind, my feelings.

 

Marios! I think what was said would arouse a lot of questions and many would doubt it and have things to say. I would love to see this continue, it would help me see better what "I" is, and how it works; Thanks for the chance.

 

Regards. Ali.

 

Marios Lefteriotisphoto.net patron, May 29, 2007; 04:17 P.M. (edit | delete)

Restoring inner peace!

 

Ali, welcome back

 

Thank you for joining us here, as well as at the Philosophical forum, at the entry under the title "WHERE IS THE BACKSTORY". As you can see there, I sent an urgent invitation to all our friends to speak and state their comments..

 

As we are digging here a little deeper, I should like to make things somewhat simpler in our search of what "I" is, through a case study of a situation in our life, we all have gone through : LONELINESS. At the same time I will explain a little more what I have said about our necessity to admit that we are weak and helpless.

 

What is Egoism? The word is Greek and the route is "Ego" which in Greek means "me" or "I". So egoism is the result of the activities of "I" inside us. And these activities are these PS workouts, so vividly described by you. Unfortunately the images, simple or complex, made by this process, tend to prevent us from communicating with others (if not attacking them), because they build a superior image of ourselves and we have to protect it from exterior attacks. So as you can see at the first photo of my Trilogy of Human Behaviour, titled "lonely" (at the right side of the screen), this woman is sitting in the dark, staring at a blank TV set. This is the beginning of despair. Then we become aware of our condition and we try to change our behaviour, but remaining at the same dark prison we have built for ourselves and as nothing is going better for us, despair deepens. This is the case of the second photo titled "alone", where this woman faces the opposite side, thinking that she made radical changes to her behaviour, but at the same time, realizing that nothing changed to the better. And finally we end with "hell", where we are totally isolated from the others, imprisoned in the walls of the castle we have built to protect our ego, and in full contradiction with ourselves (sitting back to back). This is the case of the third photo (the "hell" photo), which describes the absolute despair of this woman.

 

Now Ali, there comes the necessity of feeling totally weak, in order to repair this situation. This is the critical moment to do something about our life. If we realize, by these circumstances, how weak we are, which means how trivial our "big" image about our self is, this awareness, if deep enough, can destroy and transcend the walls of our egoistic prison and make us open ourselves to our fellow-human beings (symbolically asking for help). This action and only this, is the great moment of the beginning of our inner revolution to a total change of our existence. This is the case of the photo titled "help" ("Abstract - Restoring inner peace"), which describes these extraordinary moments of great decisions in our life. And finally we come to this photo titled "Metamorphosis" (a Greek word meaning transformation), where images inside us, have been definitely transcended and love and compassion is flowering in our life.

 

And there comes Ali now, the serious question. Why do we have to pass through this "Odyssey" in order to achieve inner peace?

 

ISN'T IT MUCH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND JUST NOW WHAT "I" IS ?

 

Regards, Marios

 

Ali Soltani Farani, May 29, 2007; 05:53 P.M.

 

Well, Marios!

 

Frankly I have been through this process or at least part of it and I have seen the different ways the "I" has fooled me; Maybe I am in that part of this odyssey between hell and help. Believe me, I am being hurt, but there is this beautiful verse from Molana (A Persian poet, known as Rumi among the world) that helps me:

 

What sadness do I have in the destruction

Under the destructed there is the treasure

 

Well your question is very essential for me, I too would like to see myself clearly and end this misery I am living in.

Well Marios! The I is my thought, and I see this, yet as you mentioned earlier I lack the energy to be aware of this always, at all times. For years this process of PS work and looking at everything through "I" has been happening.

Are you suggesting that the step from hell to help and then on is to truly realize our weekness?

Regards. Ali.

 

Ali Soltani Farani, May 29, 2007; 06:02 P.M.

 

Well can you see i in what I just said; I am trying to take myself out of this misery, but is it not I that is the misery. Yes that is true. I is the misery, thought is the misery; it is all made by thought and I was just fooling myself again. I am my own misery; and seeing this fact has ended my misery right now;

In what ways Marios do you think we waste our energy, other than the continuous work of thought?

 

 

Marios Lefteriotisphoto.net patron, May 30, 2007; 11:09 A.M. (edit | delete)

From hell to help and then to heaven!

 

Hi, Ali

 

Here we are again in our exploration of "I".

 

You asked two questions :

 

1. "Are you suggesting that the step from hell to help and then on is to truly realize our weakness?" and

 

2." In what ways Marios do you think we waste our energy, other than the continuous work of thought?"

 

The only way to transcend our egoism and start truly communicating with others, is humbleness. I think this is obvious. So, by realizing the ways "I" builds images about us, how false they are, and how these images keep us inside our castle, and if we are quite strong and clever, WE END NOW with watching "I"'s activities and we go straight to humbleness, then to compassion and finally to love and heaven. All our energy is redirected from watching our thoughts, to outside activities of helping our fellow human beings, and so we are avoiding hell.

 

But usually we cannot do this (including me), and we are living our daily misery, admiring the superior image we have built about our self. So either we start fighting each other to impose our image upon theirs, or we isolate our self in order to protect our image from exterior attacks. Both ways drive us to this hell situation. And then here comes Nature or God or what else you name it, to give us a last chance to stop misery and restore inner piece. If despair is strong enough, then WE ARE OBLIGED to realize our weakness and how false the image of ourselves is and therefore cut our chains and start truly communicating with others. The beautiful Greek word we have for that is METANOIA and is composed of two words : META which means "go after" or transcend, and NOUS which is the mind, the intellect. So this word says that we have to go after or transcend our mind, our ideas and change completely to a new life..

 

A last word Ali. In this process of continuous awareness of our thoughts and images there is a danger of creating another very strong but invisible image. Remember what we are doing when imposing images one to another when working with PS. We control opacity to a certain level. But if we set opacity to zero, image disappears. We cannot see it, realize it, but IT EXISTS, it is there! So in this continuous observation of "I", we may create an image of our self doing this serious, deep work of "I" awareness and we may not realize its existence. And this is the worst of all , because we are totally captured in this process and we lose contact with reality..

 

Finally I think that we have to discuss the nature of this energy inside us. But let us do it later on.."

Fred

 

I said "start caring and helping others". Is it bad, or is it political? Does it prevent you from doing anything else?

 

Fred I don't want to persuade anybody about my ideas. On the contrary at June 2 09:23 PM I said "(I really don't know the answer because I like shooting landscapes and portraits and flowers and all this kind of stuff, as everybody does, but this question stays there all the time, in the back of my mind)". So even I, have not yet persuaded myself, because I like making eye-candy photos. But I want to try for something better..

Welcome Michael my friend

 

I was long expecting your presence here and I am so happy because you are with us now.

 

Michael the beauty of this world is our differences (in good faith of course). Think how boring should be this world, if all of us had the same opinions and beliefs in our life. So I deeply respect your aphorisms because these are YOU, my friend. All of us have our own personalities, quite different, but, IF we respect each other, these differences make the Harmony in life? And I think that we all agree on that.

 

Michael, Jonathan, Fred, Ali and all the friends of this discussion

 

I made a proposition some hours ago, in my answer to Fred, titled "Butterfly effect in Art Photography". It has to do with our life and our future on this planet.

PLEASE STAY ON THIS and react. Say your opinion what ever it is.

 

Don't you see that I am trying to find similar aspects in our personalities in order to agree on major problems of this life and do something about them, using our love to photography? It's our life and our children's life and we have to do something about it!! Dont you agree?

Butterfly effect in Art Photography

 

Fred

 

I red very carefully your marvellous analysis about art and religion and I have to accept that in general you are right. The mistake in all this discussion I started about photos back stories is that I did not cleared up from the beginning my intentions. So we have seen the trees but we have lost the forest and it's me to blame for.

 

My idea is very simple. We are living in a very dangerous world and everything is going to the worst everyday. We hoped that governments and politics should do something about it, and eventually they do, but it is not enough! Why? Because human beings don't change to the better. What do I mean by changing to the better? Start caring and helping others, stop chasing this idea of making more money, instead, start spending money in order to loose less when they die, and all these things. Are you smiling? Perhaps. Because the easy answer to all these is: Well, you are right, I am starting doing this. SO WHAT? what can be done just by me and you and some others? There are billions of people in this planet?

 

But Fred, science has proved that even a thought by one person, changes the world, changes the whole universe?It's called Butterfly effect. It is only a matter of time?But even that, isn't it worthwhile, for sake of our children and theirs children, to do so?

 

So Fred, why don't we stop making eye candies with our cameras and start making back stories, which will help others to become "better" human beings? And by doing so, we will impose a new ideal about Art Photography!

 

You know Fred, what we are discussing now, you and me and some other friends, is changing the world. It may not be realized by us, during our life, but someone else will realize it in the future... It's a matter of time, as science says? Believe me. I am not just another dreamer.

 

I should like very much to listen to your thoughts about all these!

O.K. Ali

 

"I believe that all three of us say the same thing"

 

If you are refering to this verb "believe" of mine, I can change it to "I see" which conveys the exact meaning of my words. And at this point of course you are right. Sorry. Marios

O.K. Fred my friend (how beautiful it sounds!, I mean it)

 

I respect your opinion and I will change a little, for you, my definition of art.

 

"An artist's creation is Art, if it helps us, in any way, become better human beings"

 

Do you accept this? If you don't, please make your corrections, in order to find together, what Art has to be, especially for our times.

"I also must say that, in my opinion, there is too lofty a purpose being given to art by some here. I don't believe in "souls" but I do believe in art"

 

Can you be a little more specific Fred? Please name what is this "lofty" a purpose for you and what is your meaning of the words "souls" and "art".

To Jonathan and Ali

 

Jonathan Charles

 

"For me art is an attempt to get to the "self" ie the inner subconscious being of Carl Jung's psychology and make some kind of communication with others at that leve"

 

 

Ali Soltani Farani

 

"If one has the energy and peace of mind to be serious of all aspects of life, learn from and enjoy each second that passes by like he/she enjoys and learns from Art, then his life is, in no doubt, Art"

 

 

Marios Leftheriotis

 

"Art is everything which is useful for our soul and helps us understand this world we are living in and especially what the nature of human being is. So, life is Art".

 

 

I believe that all three of us say the same thing, in different way. The key word for that is COMMUNICATION. And for Ali and me, it is obvious that communication comes, when we live in fullness and therefore this living is Art. For Jonathan, art is some kind of communication (in subconscious level). But what is this kind? For example is it art, when we are communicating (subconsciously) for making a crime, or promoting merchandise and so on? I don't think so. Art therefore has to convey messages and ideas (consciously or subconsciously), which help human beings overcome their problems and find a way out from the dead ends, especially in our times. And we, photographers, have in our hands, a marvellous instrument, called camera, which can do that in the best way. It produces images which everybody can read, if they are shot in the proper way and so we may communicate between each other, like billions of people do through ideograms?

 

And my final question to myself and everybody else:

 

Are all other kinds of photography, especially NOW, just marvellous eye candies?

 

(I really don't know the answer because I like shooting landscapes and portraits and flowers and all this kind of stuff, as everybody do, but this question stays there all the time, in the back of my mind).

To PhoS Sant

 

Hi PhoS, welcome to our discussion.

 

"It's a mistake to interpret art on a basis of historical,technological,social,or economical database,because artworks constitute autonomous branches of thought"

 

I agree with your text PhoS and especially with this phrase. But I should like to know what is the interpretation of Art for our age. We don't Know it yet, because Art is in a process of continuous transformation and as we are living in our thoughts and memories, which come from the past, we are unable to catch the oncoming new aspect of Art. So we are exploring the facts of our times and what human beings need more, in order to guess the new face of Art.

 

So PhoS, please read my discussion with Ali Soltani Farani and tell us your comments on it, or perhaps propose some new ideas. It should be very interesting to listen to some fresh aspects on this great issue!

Hi Ali,

 

Ali Soltani Farani

 

"I am a Hindu, a Christian, a Muslim, and a Jew"

 

"It is love that acts when the man is free of all authorities including himself. The man is surrendered to love."

 

"In our world everything is so united. For the free man there is no difference between people, there is no borders, there is no such thing as my country or your country, there is only unity. There is only NOW and there exists only love."

 

"Be many people"

 

 

Marios Lefteriotis

 

I isolated these marvellous phrases Ali, from your text. You are a Muslim, I am a Christian Greek Orthodox, he is a Catholic, she is a Jew, the other one is Hindu, Protestant, Baptist, Anglican, Methodist, Buddhist and so on (sorry if I don't remember now all dogmas and religions). But the Truth is one: GOD is above God!! Meaning that this which really exists and we name GOD, cannot be understood by our minds, and that's why, He is above what every one of us, little, weak and egoistic human beings, thinks God is! So,

 

GOD UNITES, EGO DIVIDES...

 

You say that we have to be surrendered (in God you mean, I suppose)

 

We say that we must have faith and complete confidence in God, which is the same.

 

So, basically the majority of religions and dogmas, using different ways, say the same things, and it is natural because they speak about the same God.

 

But there are many fellow human beings too, who don't believe in God and many of them are good people, sometimes better than some of us who claim that believe in God...

 

So we have to find the uniting factor for all human beings, believing or not in God. And I think that we have agreed that this is the transcendence of our egoism until we reach the state of love. And that's what we are exploring here, starting from the art of photography and how can we, by using art photos and back stories, help others transcend their personal problems and become better human beings.

 

But unfortunately we have a big problem here. You mentioned it at the start of your text. People do not care about these. They love their silence, waiting for something to happen tomorrow, that will change things to the better. But world has reached a critical point and we don't know if there will be tomorrow!! So we have to act now, so everyone of us, makes his personal inner revolution against egoism in order to start respecting, caring and loving others...

 

Ali, I gave a new definition of Art but nobody understood it:

 

"Art is everything which is useful for our soul and helps us understand this world we are living in and especially what the nature of human being is... Life is Art"

 

We cannot accept it because we are living in the past. We shall understand and accept it perhaps tomorrow (if there is tomorrow). But the fact is that this is the only way to make human beings realize the bad aspects of their nature and do something about the major problems humanity faces to day, before it is too late...

Ali has stated some very important ideas about photos in relation to our life. I will try to isolate some phrases from his text in order to give a dynamic to our discussion, and then give my comments.

 

Ali Soltani Farani

 

"The photo of the Vietnam war is not the Vietnam war, it is just paper and some ... So let us be clear that it is the observer that makes the relation between the photo and what it shows, and that the photo, in soul has no relation what so ever to what the observer thinks it shows"

 

"So what is it that makes a photo so special, so as to stop a war, make a protest, bring tears to my face, or for the least make me want to watch and watch and watch?"

 

"It brings out a series of images in our memories, it has the ability to suggest a relation between those images, and our thought has the ability to manipulate all this and make an idea, a new perspective to look from. It is still the past, but maybe it has helped me find something in my memory I hadn't paid attention to so far."

 

"This is why a photo may have the potentiality to stop a war, but never will any photo have the potential to stop war, because in order to stop war totally, and make peace and harmony, everyone of us has to stop this continuous action of manipulating the past and just look at war right now, look at ourselves right now. if we want to change the way the world goes, we have to look at now."

 

"For a minute there, I thought of giving up photography, but I finally caught it. I have made images of life too and of tranquillity and peace of mind, of how one can live free and be aware at all times, and of myself. Maybe your photo will have the potential to relate all these memories together and bring out the contradiction I have always believed in: that there is a me, and there is my thought; Maybe I'll come to react to this contradiction and find out that I am thought, and then maybe I'll take my big part in stopping war and feeding the hungry; Just Maybe."

 

Marios Leftheriotis

 

It is obvious that the photo of a tree, is not the tree, as also the word tree is not the tree as well. But in order to communicate, we have agreed that this photo and this word must mean a tree, the photo being superior than the word, because it can show the kind of the tree too. Besides let us not forget that more than two billion people in earth, communicate through images (ideograms). It would be very interesting if we had a Chinese friend here to make his comments. So a photographer can, through his photos, give messages, ideas and feelings to the viewer and pass to him back stories. In this way a photo can stop a war, but unfortunately this is temporary. And here comes the problem of human behaviour. Wars will stop for good, only if we stop war inside us, caused by contradictions raised in our minds by the mal processing of thousands of images gathered or made by our self. So the question is how can we stop this war inside us and have inner peace, in order to spread it to our surroundings and little by little transmit it to the whole world!

 

I think that the first step for this, is the deep understanding of the way which human mind works. And for this Ali has proposed some ideas. Let's listen to him!

Jonathan welcome to our discussion

 

I agree with you and I invite you to stay with us and eventually visit at my portofolio the abstract photo "Metamorphosis" where this discussion continues in a different deeper level.<div></div>

URGENT INVITATION TO

 

 

Marios Leftheriotis,

 

Ellis Vener,

 

Jacob Brown,

 

Matt Laur,

 

Justin Black,

 

Steve Dawson,

 

Steve Swinehart,

 

Dick Hilken,

 

Carl Root,

 

D.B. Cooper,

 

Mike Dixon,

 

Al Kaplan,

 

Ric Johnson,

 

RML.

 

Alan B.Arglebargle,

 

Nicole York,

 

Maris Rusis,

 

Fred Goldsmith

 

and everyone else who has not state his ideas and comments so far,

 

 

WE ARE IN DEEP WATERS AND NOW IT IS THE TIME FOR EVERYBODY TO SPEAK

about photography, about life, ABOUT OUR SURVIVAL ON THIS PLANET!!!

If there are solutions, let's find them N O W ! ! !

 

Ali has opened a channel. LET US EXPLORE IT ..

Fred, you have touched so many important aspects of Art, Photography and Life, that we could speak for days in order to exchange thoughts and analyze them. Let me isolate some strong phrases out of your text for sake of our friends who may want to join us.

 

"It may be that different chords will sound for me tomorrow when I look at it, and that different or no chords will be heard by others when looking at it"

 

"I do better understand what you are saying now that we have had a few back and forths (the sign of a good dialogue)"

 

"the back stories or emotional findings people comment on regarding my own photos are neither intended by me nor have even been thought of by me"

 

"I have stimulated ANY reaction, even strongly negative, in someone"

 

"spiritual definition (...) of art"

 

"create a new "reality" rather than imitating or reconstructing a tired old one"

 

"over the years, many artists have tried to bring art down off its high horse"

 

"understanding the critiquing methods or lack thereof on this web site. Clearly, they are two different topics, both worthy of quite separate treatments"

 

Of all these the one that hits me best, is (in my own words): "stimulating reactions, positive or negative, occasionally beyond the intentions of the artist!!". I like that because it shows that the viewer of a photo, when reacting like this, in good faith of course, is ALIVE and FREE and is living his or her life in FULLNESS.

 

Alive, Free, and Fullness of Life, being words and expressions not to be explained and understood by dictionaries, but by a long, strictly personal effort, during our presence in this world..

To Fred Goldsmith

 

Fred, you gave my ideas on photo backstories in a very practical and well understood way. You will allow me to present your reaction to a photo of my portofolio (it would be the same with photos of any other portofolio), as well as my answer to you, because this "happening" explains in a very practical way, what a photo backstoty is.

 

Fred Goldsmith

 

"Marios, since I enjoyed reading your philosophical musings in the forum on "back stories," I thought I'd come experience your photos. This one stood out to me. At first glance, of course, the interesting and unique design caught my eye. What a construction! Then, of course, I choose to take it one step further and see that you have thoughtfully placed a gesturing human subject in the midst of man's structure. And then I go without to the natural blue sky. Suddenly I am struck by nature, man, and man's creations. A thoughtful and visual photograph, the best kind. --Fred"

 

Marios Lefteriotis

 

"Fred, thank you because you got my idea of photos backstories, which I want to convey to everybody interested in. You made a slight effort and you discovered these beautiful things which are a part of yourself now. That's what I am trying to convey in philosophical forum, under the title "WHERE IS THE BACKSTORY".

Very deep thinking Fred. May I add a word about reality? What is reality? We say that reality is what really exists, and we assume that we are living reality in our everyday life, so we can understand and describe it. But this is totally wrong, because we are living in the past and therefore we can not touch reality. J.Krishnamurti all his life was teaching this, and he was wright. So if Art can reveal to us the "real" reality, then it can change our life. That's why we say that Art goes ahead of our time, because it can represent to us, this which we are going to understand tomorrow. So, because I think that this is very serious for our life, I started my text, in the beginning of this discussion, with the definition that "Art is the representation or the reconstruction of reality", but unfortunately it was misunderstood and caused a series of serious controvercies.. You see I had not thought of this problem of insufficient vocabulary, as it was, so well, said by you..

 

Regards

 

Marios

1. Maris Rusis

 

"A photograph without "back story", however minimal, is merely eye candy"

 

I like that Maris! Tell us more..

 

2. Jacob Brown

 

Welcome back Jacob my friend (I mean it). You are a passionate fellow and I like it! And now to our subject.

 

" The fact that photographs ? they're mute, they don't have any narrative ability at all. You know what something looks like, but you don't know what's happening, you don't know whether the hat's being held or is it being put on her head or taken off her head. From the photograph, you don't know that. A piece of time and space is well described. But not what is happening."

 

You are mostly right. A photo can not describe what is happening. But it can describe what HAS HAPPENED, and there we can find a part of ourself. For example, we see a photo of a man hunged with a rope in a room and a letter close to him. We can assume that this man has commited suicide. Then we see details upon him and the enviroment and perhaps we can assume a story about him and the reasons which made him kill himself and so on. Besides this is the way police detectives are investigating these kind of things. So by a photo we can tell a story which has happened and there we can find parts of ourselves. The problem is elsewere: We need more data in order to make it in the best way. So we start making changes on photos. We give more light at the foreground and we darken backround in order to focus attention on a certain part of the synthesis, we make changes to colours, shapes, cropping them and so on and finally we imitate movies by taken two or more photos, surimposing them and making a new image which combines many frosen moments, in order to give a certain impression and motivate viewers to the direction we want. Now for me the big question is this (and this is my next chalenge to this forum): Are these PS workouts, photos ? (including mine of course). And what is a photo? Is axactly what camera captures the moment of shooting? And if yes, what all the rest are? Because I think that the vast majority of photos published at this site, have been restored the one or the other way.

 

Regards, take care (ask Ellis Vener to join us as well)

 

Marios

1. Alan B.arglebargle

 

"I never even considered the photo of Kim Phuc to be art, but incredibly powerful photojournalism"

 

We come again Alan to the main point of this discussion: What is Art. I already have said my personal opinion. For me Art is everything which is useful for our soul and helps us understand this world we are living in and especially what the nature of human being is..So LIFE is ART for me. And I agree with you that beauty in our kitchen is Art ("Beauty is what makes life worth living" I absolutely agree with you) as well as every little detail in our life. The question is what hits us. And this is strictly personal I suppose. In that way, for me, photojournalism can be art. I don't reject these pepper photos as an Art Work, but I believe that this little girl's photo, gave a deep meaning in our life because it changed, at a certain moment, the route of history. That for me makes this photo an Art masterpiece because it changed our life to the better. Anyway Alan I don't disagree with you in anyway because I realize that we both believe in some major values of life, perhaps in a different way..

 

Take care

 

2. Nicole York

 

"All of these strike me for different reasons".

 

Just one point my friend Nicole. Do these reasons extend beyond aesthetics and originality? and if yes try to dig out and find the initial roots (you know memories, experiences and so on) and we shall go on with it tomorrow.

Alan and Al

 

(pepper talking)

 

take one of these "gorgeous" pepper photos, the best, and put it side by side with this famous portrait of Vietnamese little girl, which stopped the Vietnam war and tell me if you continue to insist in this pepper talking..Take care my friends

Nicole you said :" I've seen photographs and pieces of art that blew my mind, I could sit and stare at them for hours not caring a pinch for what they "said" or who made them or what the artist intended. I couldnt tell you their names or sometimes even where I saw them but they are still there in the back of my mind and I carry them around with me."

I should like to know WHY these photos blew your mind. So please remember one of these, the best, describe it in details and let us find together the reasons which made your mind blow. I am sure that they will not be the beautiful colours, or shapes or anything else related to aesthetics and originality, but something that touched your unconcious mind. A back story very well hidden there, that was motivated by this picture. Do you want us to make this experiment? Let's go, I'm waiting..

Can you mention Al a "good" photo, which has no back stoty? An historic photo who everybody remembers. And I mean everybody, not only the critics and the photographers. Can you? You can't, because a good photo, is the one which gives us the reality behind the image. It is the one which gives us a treasure of memories, a piece of history (ask war photo reporters, or remember the photo of American flag and the soldiers setting it during world war II, or the photo of the kiss of victory given by a soldier to an unknown girl in N.Y. at the end of the war), a touch of immortality, a hope in our life, a solution to our problems. This is a photo to remember, this a good photo for me..All the others are excellent photos in terms of aesthetics and originality and that's all. Nobody remembers them after a month, a year or ten years if you want. Thanks Al. Take care.

A word for Justin Black

 

My friend, thank you for backing me, especially at the start of this discussion, against these two "bunk" fellows. I have no hard feelings about them. This is their way of speaking and communicating. I respect it. I only hope that they will take advantage of this discussion to understand some major things in life and restore their arrogant behaviour to the others..