marcel_cansse

To Dave Whoami

This is not new. I viewed several Liège-made pinfire revolvers stamped with CS or CSA while they bear the post-1877 proofmarks. At the end of the Civil War, thousands of guns were sold to large dealers, and only a few thousands were sold back to Europe for the French-Prussian war of 1870. A great number were still listed in the 1910 catalogs. In the early 1950's, when demand for Civil War memorabilia began to increase, some smartasses started to gather all the European-made old guns they could find, and had them marked with CS or CSA, in order to triple their values as so-called Confederate guns. They did not know however, that Belgian proofmarks indicate the production period, and that marking their guns was not a priority in the Cofederacy. The result is that ALL European-made Civil War era guns found on US soil and bearing those marks, are spurious, even the good ones, unless their origin can be prooved by documents.

I was told that there is now a factory just outside Prague (Tcheckia) where one can have any German WW2 daggers, bayonets, belt buckles, engraved with anything one wants. Some items look very real even to specialists since it appears that they have found the original moulds and machines used in the period. They can also supply any kind of helmets, with all the side decals one's wants. Approximately 98 % of the nazi militaria that are offered at shows, is fake, including SS uniforms cut by hand last week out of original wool and cotton rolls found in another old factory.

Since I am not an expert on old cameras- far from - you can now understand why simple answers such as "of course it is a fake" do not satisfy me.

Fortunately a few people here have given detailed answers and have convinced me.

Thanks again to all.

Marcel

Wigwam Jones gave an interesting reaction with his question as to WHY people would want a camera - or any other artefact - with a swastika on it.

Well, as the son of a true victim of the nazis, I have asked myself that question thousands of times, and I don't know the answer. On the frequent gun and militaria shows where I put my table, I can see that Nazi artefacts always book great success. Helmets, uniforms, signs, daggers, weapons and accoutrements: fact is that many collectors are eagerly looking for them, and pay very high prices for original pieces. Moreover, the SS stuff is the most wanted.

Of course, about 98 % of all that material is fake; but even copies

reach now high price levels.

Besides, it looks like there are millions of experts on that stuff as well (smile).

So the question remains: why ?

I'm glad it's not mine anyway, and I'll relay the responses to the owner.

Thank you all.

Thank you all for your responses, I note someone says that Leica never made full-brass cameras, and even never produced any with that logo. Well perhaps the logo was added later on, when the exact number of cameras needed was known ?

I also note some answers such as "of course it is a fake". That is the kind of answer I heard many times, but what I asked is HOW it can be proved. By just saying that it is fake, you don't prove anything.

If someone comes to me with a fake old gun, I can tell and show exactly why it is a fake or a copy. I will never say "of course it's a fake" without explaining why.

To the people who say "serial# does not match: does not match what ?

Is there somewhere a list, or a book reference where the serial# are registered ? Actually serial# are intended for that purpose.

The inner part looks ok to me, and the camera accepts a film without problem. I don't know about the look of the shutter speed button, all I can say is that it resembles that of the modern Zenit cameras, and so are the teeth on the trigger button.

Being professionally aware of production problems, I would say that if this is a fake, it must be an expensive one since it is fully functional, including the picture counter.

I've got on hand a full brass and black leather Leica, serial# 10642, marked

with the 1936 Olymipc Games logo, which is the Olympic rings above the nazi

eagle with the date 1936, and under the eagle the words Olympia.Berlin.

The camera is in a dark brown leather holster also marked Leica.

I have seen a Russian fake once, but it was only an empty box without mechanism

and its holster was of black imitation leather.

This one is fully functional, so if it is a fake, it is not a cheap one. It

came along with a brass medal of the 1936 Olympic Games, in its box, that also

looks original. The formal owner is German and says it comes from a relative of

his. The camera and holster look aged.

This is what people say about this camera:

"It's a fake made in Russia"

"It is an original and it is worth a fortune"

"It is a Kriegsmarine model with Olympic Games logo"

"It is an original Leica but the nazi markings are fake"

"It loks original but the serial# does not match"

etc etc.

When I ask people how they can proove what they say, the answers I get are the

following:

"I know that stuff very well"

"My uncle had the same one once"

"If I had an original on hand I'd show you"

which doesn't proove anything. I am not a specialist on old cameras, I am a

collector of antique guns and militaria, and the above comments are what I hear

all the time from thousands of so-called "experts" on nazi artefacts at the gun-

and militaria shows.

I just want to know wether this camera is a fake or not, and how I can be sure

of its origin (book references, pictures, real experts advices), in order to

avoid discussions.

thanks very much in advance for any help.

Picutres are posted with this message - I hope they will help .

Marcel