gina_marie1

Michael...YES, you are correct, WE DO NOT have it stated in our contract that we be served a meal nor do we get

asked whether we need one before the wedding..I guess we are just that *special* that our clients make those

arrangements ;) and yes we have extremely considerate clients. As I said, 2 years ago I was a bride and I did

not feel "pressured" to feed my vendors as you allude to some that do. I suppose it must be different in your

area. Perhaps the fact that

they are all working people and have their own meal breaks as required by federal law for employees who work over

a certain # of hours is the reason they feel we should get one as well, even though we are just the independent

business owners and photographer 'common' folk who are slaving away to give them wonderful photos. Excuse the

sarcasm, as that is not what I think of ourselves or our service and I know that is not what our clients think of us.

 

The timeline part I commented on was in regards to being prepared during the meal to know what is going to

happen, if there will be any speeches, if clients want table shots during the dinner, etc.and goes in line of

what to do during the dinner break question in general, checking & replacing batteries etc. It appears your

feelings on this are very strong, but please do not put words in my mouth because I said no such thing about

assumptions regarding your or anyone else's knowledge skills of timeline.

 

Curious as to whether you declined meal breaks in all type of occupations you've ever had as you do with wedding

photography.

 

For the OP, there is plenty of varying opinions on what to do during the dinner, IMHO, a good mix of all of the

above will serve you well.

Just something some photographers may not know...often (in our case 99% of the time) the Bride and Groom have already arranged a meal for us. They have paid for it. I know this as well because of my own wedding, one vendor did not eat and I was a little disappointed that I paid for a meal for them and they did not eat. When my clients or their parents tell us to eat, we do...when they don't, we ask the catering if they have arranged a meal for the vendors. As Mary said, our clients urge us to do so because they love us and want us to be refreshed as they see how hard and non-stop we work. Of course we are quick with it, of course we are ready and willing with a camera in case there is something important to photograph.

 

This also goes hand and hand with having a good knowledge of the couple's timeline...we already know what will be happening and when and plan accordingly so we don't miss anything.

Table shots with a bunch of plates of half eaten food are the ugliest things ever! We get them if requested and

as I'm sure most photographers will do...we try to minimize the "messy" look and close in on candids of the

couple interacting. Regardless...we need to take a quick 20 minute break to eat as is common with any other 8

hour workday at any job and this is done while the bride & groom and guests are eating dinner. We've never had to

have it in our contract, our clients always urge us to have dinner. As mentioned above, people do not like to be

photographed eating. We have usually already gotten table detail shots during cocktail hour because once guests

sit at the tables, the tables are usually no longer *shot worthy* with glasses and napkins scattered about.

 

Sometimes, we are able to put together a little slideshow of photos during the earlier part of the day to play on

the laptop as well.

We recently switched to GraphiStudio as well. I don't care for the pink line and I believe in some blacks the line turns blue, but I think their Crystal Glance cover, print quality & binding is gorgeous so I'm just going to deal with it. It seams that it is only the photographic paper because we also have a metallic laminated sample and have not seen the pink line. I tell the clients there is a discoloration over the fold vs. a black gutter line in our other album offering. Guess we can't have it all huh!? LOL

That is where the engagements are helpful. You will know what to expect on the wedding day and if the couple is not photogenic or are serious eye blinkers..you'll be prepared with a solution. Generally in anything more formal or 'smile' in the camera shot, we do the old 1,2,3 count. Then, if they seem to constantly blink when they know we will take the shot, we click at 2 instead. Seriously...some blinkers can hear that shutter click from a mile away and no matter where you are, even if they don't know your pointing at them they will blink. Just shoot more and sorry to tell you, but you will, at times have no other choice but to result to photoshop eye swaps to get the one that was perfect.

 

Regarding general facial expressions, if we notice an awkward smile of sorts, we just get a bit more specific with direction ("now try a closed mouth smile, or how about showing some teeth", etc.) Trying to joke and loosen up people is very important as well...as someone mentioned, it takes a lot more to this job than just shooting photos as you probably already know.

I have only recently switched to GraphiStudio but whenever there has been an issue, I just contact my US Rep and then 'cc' the Italy production rep. I think no matter what company you use, at some point there will be a mixup so I just use the one who's product I like most..in this case Graphi.

 

On a side note, I would advise putting any special requests on both the written order form and the online projected order. That way if there is a mistake on their end, you won't have to pay extra and perhaps even get the order expedited. I don't care for the free calendar, it's always the same template and IMHO..not an attractive design plus the calendar itself is useless..so I pass on it. Why give a sub-par product to a client, even if it's free?

Everyone's pretty much summed it up, I always shoot with 2 cameras and it will be a pain unless you sync the camera clocks with the computer/each other first. A couple of times we have forgotten it with the 4th backup camera but luckily it was only off due to daylight savings time change. FYI, not sure about Aperture, but in Lightroom you can modify the capture time to RAW files by the hour (not to the minute though, just plus or minus a number of hours).

Guy, a great thing you may also consider if you really want to get some gorgeous, artistic and portfolio worthy shots is consider to offer to give the bride and groom a 'day after' session. You will have complete control and all the time to do whatever artsy shots you'd like. Just a thought.

 

And yes, as mentioned in my previous post, we do expect guests with cameras, with point and shoot & SLRs and we deal with it politely and actually, rarely say anything unless they are obnoxiously in the way. The complaints that have come up in this thread and the photo.net forum have nothing to do with 'ego' as you have suggested but rather in line as what Mary posted. I had a groom the other day come pick up his package, he talked about how he noticed his cousin walking behind the officiant & gazebo during the ceremony and hanging out on the side of the bridesmaids taking photos. He said, 'all I kept thinking of during the ceremony was, I hope he's not going to be in our wedding photos'. And this was coming from the groom, their own guest with a camera was distracting him at his wedding.

 

I think you will do fine at this wedding because if you did not care, you would not have posted in the first place but I think it's important that both the positive and realistic, even if negative, aspects have been brought up at what can happen for others who read this.

 

BTW..my husbands cousin and best friend wanted us to photograph their wedding but of course since he will be in the wedding, that can't happen. We will help them find a good photographer and don't plan on bringing our cameras at all. Never have before I was a wedding photographer and never will. It's hard not to want to take beautiful photos for them, but I trust they will have what they need from the pro and I'd rather watch and enjoy the celebration without looking through a viewfinder for all of it.

Wow, I am curious how many of those who have encouraged Guy to just go for it and shoot away are professional wedding photographers?

 

"I'm not getting in his way, but I'll obviously be doing my best to get the best shots I can."

 

"That said I'm mainly looking for a fine art portrait type of shot"

 

"Maybe the ceremony pictures wouldn't be such a great idea this time, although I'd love to try ceremony shots sometime - such a beautiful moment, and I'd like to do something arty with those pictures. Not something you get access to every day though, unless you set it up for yourself - which I might consider doing at some point. The shot of the couple standing at the altar with the rays of light streaming in on them is hard to beat, and as someone who always has his mind on the photograph, I'd feel that'd I'd missed out on something, knowing that the guys at the back was getting it all and I'm stuck half way along the third row with my camera under the pugh."

 

"I want to produce images that look professional, perhaps with a different slant, for my own satisfaction."

 

Guy, I do not mean to be harsh or offend you, but with the statements above, it sounds like your goal is to be more than just a guest photographer. Most guest photographers are not out to take 'professional' looking images, they just want to capture photos of their loved ones. Whether you think so or not, based on the desired goals you've mentioned...IMHO you will likely get in the way of the pro photographer. You do not know the pro photographers style, what if he/she prefers to roam during the ceremony and what if you and your tripod & cable release are set up at a spot they need at just the right time they need to be there?

 

I think it's really sad these days that so many guests feel the need to lug their big DSLRs with strobes and flash diffusers to weddings they are invited to as guests and possibly compromise the quality of the couples professional photos. I can't tell you how many wedding images we have taken where we are doing our job, we are there and anticipating the right moment to catch the perfect shot of the bride and her father walking down the aisle only to have uncle bob back in the 3rd pew with his flash head growing out of the brides father's head. Yes, we take multiple shots, and luckily there are 2 of us so we get 2 different angles and have several to choose from but perhaps it was that one shot ruined by uncle Bob's camera in the background which had the best expression on the brides face? Then at this same wedding, uncle Bob decides to jump up to the reception doorway to get his shot of the happy couples grand entrance so the pro photographer gets a wonderful shot of the beaming bride and groom and uncle Bob behind them!

 

Yes it happens, yes we expect it and deal best we can with it and still give the clients a great collection of images and they tell us they are thrilled...but we see more and more images we have to toss out due to this growing trend. We have had clients ask us on occasion how we feel about a friend photographing with us, even had one ask if they can tag along with us during the day. Since we are already a 2 shooter team, another photographer is overkill..we tell them it would be best if their relative photographed the ceremony from their seat, not photograph during the formals as it does cause wandering eyes and adds time, but they are more than welcome to shoot away during the reception.

 

I would advise you to bring minimal gear and be aware of whether you see the photographer in your viewfinder because that means you are surely in his. Your mention of waiting till the photographer is done with formals to shoot your own is good and respectful of the photographer. But, if you really want to get some amazing, fine art, professional looking wedding photos as you have mentioned, try to secure a wedding gig of your own (after you have the appropriate training and experience of course.)

In our first year we had just about every church restriction under the sun! The most strict being what you are about to do. Here is our first no flash, stay behind the guests wedding. <p><a href="http://www.pixoflife.com/POL_files/shows/BE-show/iframe.html">no flash church wedding</a><p>

 

We photographed primarily with: 2 30D's, 1 20D, 50 1.4(rented), 85 1.8, 70-200 2.8 IS, 17-55 2.8 IS.

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I personally found 85 1.8 and 70-200 2.8 most successful for our style. 50 1.4 worked very well also but mostly for far away shots as the shallow depth of field is a bit too much for my taste.

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Tried not to shoot over 500 ISO and used Noiseware SE for all images. Were happy with the results. Have added a 5D to the lineup and it's been an improvement for those type of weddings.

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Go to the church before for test shots. We were allowed to roam a little bit during the ceremony as long as we were behind the guests at all times. The church had pretty decent ambient light. More often than not, our church weddings restrict the flash to procession only.

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Good luck!

Sticking to your original question, I agree with the mentions of Triple Scoop Music, lots of variety and lifetime licensing.

 

As for the debate to use music or not, well...you didn't ask that question so not sure why so many chimed in with their advice to not use it. For the record, it's your target audience that you should care about...not a bunch of photographers saying they'll leave your site...lol Yes, I get bored of some music when I look at photographers sites too but when I was a bride looking for my wedding photographer I didn't.

 

I was one who didn't use it on my website for a long time but did use it for slideshows. We just recently decided to add music to go with our new flash based template and I just see it as another way to reach the type of clients we want and who will relate to us, our work and our style. We have already gotten lots of compliments on the new flash site and even the music. The bottom line is to cater to your target audience...old fashioned website=traditional photos, modern website=modern approach to photography. JMHO.

I'm sorry to hear this has happened to you. When we started we offered a few free engagement sessions. Each couple was happy except one. She had emailed me asking for 1 specific photo she remembered us taking, I explained why we didn't have it. Afterward, she posted a review complaining that she did not get ENOUGH free photos and included several wrong facts about the session. It really hurts as you do feel helpless and especially when you feel you are actually helping someone out (we chose her over others because she said she couldn't afford them).

 

I wrote a professional rebuttal post, correcting each of her misrepresented statements and included a link to the images. Everyone saw for themselves there was nothing to complain about and we ended up getting several inquiries from people who saw that review.

 

You have to be VERY careful with this situation. I have seen instances where a rebuttal letter ended up working against the photographer making things worse. *IF* you have already built somewhat of a reputation and it is clear that the work on your website is good, then it may be best to let things lie. Most people who read these reviews have common sense to know there are 2 sides to every story and they will look at your work to make their own judgments. If you are new, that may be harder. If the facts are misrepresented, a genuine sounding rebuttal that does not have a defensive tone yet still relays the facts may help. But again, it might be best to wait things out a bit. You can also ask the clients that have been happy with your work to post their own reviews for damage control. WOULD NOT RECOMMEND LEGAL ACTION NOW. If you do, she may follow up that in her post and the members of the forum which she gave her review will not appreciate a photographer who threatens with legal action regardless of whether you are write or wrong.

I think the advice given on here has been well on in response to that. Each person has a different skill set and drive but I am with those that feel a person should never take on a professional assignment as their first solo wedding. However, photographing a wedding cost or for free for a couple who truly has no means or intention to pay for a pro...well, someone's gotta do it!

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Here is our <a href="http://www.pixoflife.com/shows/RO-show/" target="a_blank">first solo wedding</a>. We posted an ad on Craigslist offering to photograph a free wedding to a couple who was getting married within a month. We were honest about why it was free and about our lack of experience. Before that, we were 2nd shooters for 2 weddings and did several engagement and portrait sessions. Took some classes and workshops as well. The couple loved the photos and we were very pleased with our results for the first solo gig but our tech skills & style have certainly improved and evolved since then. We also take less tilt shots now ;)

Ditto on WHCC. We ordered their 5x5 tri-folds, the quality was well worth the expense.

Hi William, I did not assume you had mentioned the makeup to the bride...I was merely answering this question in your post: <<Is it appropriate for me to advise her right away that I fear the makeup will be obvious in the photos>>.

 

And yes, you will likely come across this issue again. We have often found ourselves wondering "why on earth did they style their makeup that way!". You just pull out whatever magic tricks you can in & out of the camera :)

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an exact right or wrong on this one. I think whether you get a lot of inquiries or not will be more affected by the quality of your work and your price point period. However, IMHO, you should at least have some base point posted. We used to advertise all our prices but since we have increased we now have the "starting at" message and they can email us for a complete price list.

 

Try what your gut instinct tells you, and if you're not happy, try something else.

Our clients like the Pictage books. They offer a little 5x5 book called the 'Bonsai' which has one image per page, includes 100 images in Hardcover for $60 or softcover for $40. IMO, the print quality is much better than any of the consumer books like MyPublisher or Blurb, although those are probably much more affordable.

If I had found myself in this situation (and sort of have), I'd probably refrain from commenting as it would probably make the bride uncomfortable and self conscious throughout the rest of the session. If I notice dark eyes then I add a little fill flash, otherwise I add some fill w/ LR in post process and perhaps use a bit of skin smoothing on the areas you mentioned which looked 'cakey'.

 

We have definitely noticed the difference in a 'good' makeup artist vs. bad and have started keeping a list of stylist references that we plan on giving couples with their new client packets. They don't have to use them, but it will certainly help if they do!

I signed up in Dec for a 6mo membership to evaluate. Gotta say I made my money back quickly, happened to join right when YSI album design software was offering 50% off to all members (didn't know about this as it's only advertised to members). Saved a couple hundred bucks but so far there has been quite a bit of value just reading over archives. Got tips for our first bridal show and all sorts of business related info. So far I find it very helpful as a resource for running the business.

 

I personally find photo.net more helpful when I am in need of technical advice though.

We find that as we have gradually raised our prices, we are getting more inquiries where the brides are trying to bargain the price down by asking about an hour or 2 less in coverage, wanting to swap a print credit for the actual $ value and even had a client ask if we would work 'under the table' and not charge sales tax if they paid tax. I guess it kind of makes me think of the "champagne taste, beer budget" comment mentioned above. Of course we politely say no and stick to our ethics and prices. Kudos for them for trying to save money but many just don't realize they are trying to save money with the wrong service, IMHO I'd rather save by less flowers which will wilt and die after the wedding day than the photos which will last forever.

 

I've also experienced a bride who played her photographers quotes off of each other...I'm not that hard up for a photography gig to play that game. I more felt sorry for her because ultimately she chose the photographer with much less experience just because they offered a little more time and some 'fluff' extras that would have no play in the ultimate quality of the wedding images.

DM...anyone getting married will have a hard time securing vendors with those ideals. Caterers, Videographers, Venues, Bakers...all get paid BEFORE they deliver the goods.

 

Some clients may wish to pay ON the wedding day because they have a fear that the photographer may not show up, but this client doesn't want to pay the balance until AFTER they receive the album.

 

Their reasons for that can only be 2 things: A) They are worried the photographer will not deliver the goods. Which indicates they do not trust the photographer which makes me wonder why anyone would hire someone they cannot trust. or B) they do not want to pay UNTIL they are SATISFIED with the goods. Which again, indicates a trust issue because if they were completely confident in this photographer they would trust that he is the expert and artist who will deliver a product they will love.

 

That's my 2 cents at least.

I would revise your contract for this and all future clients on the 'scheduling conflict' bit. I have the illness and nothing more. If there is a personal emergency, such as a death or illness in the family I doubt ANY client is going to sue you as long as you find a replacement. But scheduling conflict implies pretty much anything.

 

That is and was the only thing I changed in my contract. If you do not want to change the payment schedule, don't change it. You are not being forced to photograph the wedding, tell them that is your payment policy and stick with it. If they want YOU to be their wedding photographer they'll agree. 3 out of about 30 clients this year asked me to pay the balance on the day of. We kindly told them payment schedules are firm for ___ & ___ reasons. They understood and still signed.

I would recommend renting the 50 1.2 first and be sure it fits with your shooting style and preferences. I tried the 50 1.4 for low light w/ a 30D and it was okay, but shooting with such a narrow DOF took a bit of getting used to with 1.4 and from what I've heard on 1.2...it's razor thin. Recently purchased the 5d and used it for a recent low light church venue. I think I prefer the ability to up the ISO and shooting at least 1.8, but again, that's just for our particular tastes. Seems many rave about the 1.2L lenses.

Believe it or not, BLOGs are going to be better appreciated and more powerful if you are yourself and personable rather than having it sound like a resume. If you want to put 'guys' you should be able to IF that is your persona. I tend to be a bit of a writer myself, so my blogging style isn't quite as casual.

 

A good book (which I haven't gotten all teh way through yet) is 'Naked Conversations: How Blogs Are Changing the Way Businesses Talk with Customers'

by Robert Scoble.

 

As far as rude comments, I had one that was a little rude regarding the subject in a photo I posted so I deleted it and reposted it omitting the inappropriate part.

I experienced a similiar issue early on with a free session I did while building my portfolio. Believe it or not, this person didn't think they got enough free photos. I deleted the non-keepers. There is no reason to keep bad exposures, eyes blinking or heck knows what else that didn't make the cut.

 

We process and renumber all images. We do not hint at a number taken, yet do give an estimate of how many images the couple will receive and if we ever get someone asking for a missing image again, we won't be lying when we say the non-keepers have been deleted.

 

The story about the organist is interesting, in that case their suspicion of a missing photo was true, but I point my camera at various subjects all day long...it doesn't mean I push the shutter though.