phillip hurd - atlanta ga

Monte was one of the reasons I went into Photography. I will miss him.

 

RIP.

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I must add to my first post.

 

Jeff obviously these are some "great" shots or you wouldn't be asking. I am a fairly decent sales person but I couldn't sell my skill without proof of my ability, which are my "great" photos.

 

To make great photos I take time away from my family to go to weddings, parties, sporting events etc... My compensation is two fold, (1) monetary and (2) having even more great photos to show.

 

I still hold that that is a business decision that should be based on whether you think those photos will translate into sales. For example, if they are really great and help directly or indirectly you to book 10 weddings and you charge $1000 a wedding then it will cost you $10,000.00 not to show those photos. Do you really intend to throw away that much money every time someone you put in front of your lens can't make a go of it?

 

Few of the arguments here have been made from the photographerﾒs point of view; most have been made from the brideﾒs emotional point of view (and an assumed point of view at that). Jeff never said it was a horrible breakup but rather that they just did. How do you nay sayers know that they didn't decide to just be good friends or that in a couple of months they won't be right back together (ever heard of cold feet)? I have some friends who have married and divorced the same woman more than once. This is why in my earlier post I pointed out that these decisions should be treated as business questions not emotional ones.

 

Several posts have pointed to word of mouth as a reason not to use the photos. That has merit but again how many of your customers come from this family or group of friends? It should be a business decision! Life has ups and downs and has to be viewed from a holistic perspective. None of us knows what that bride will do, think, or feel about her ex in the future (and Jeff may only know part of the present) so how can we/he make business decisions about it now?

 

Jeff you also didn't appear poised to send these photos to the bride but rather show them examples of your work to other potential clients. I don't expect that you are going to give a detailed back story of the couple in every photo you show either.

 

Jeff my advice to you is to stay true to your business philosophy. In my business I rarely hear, as a previous poster put it, "you are like one of us." This dosen't bother me in the least. What I hear often is, "You are the most professional person we have dealt with." I treat my clients with professionalism, respect, and I am honest about EVERY detail. I live up to every thing in my contract; and usually far surpass it, I often use peoples wedding photos to promote my business. I would never use any photos that would hurt my business, but I also wouldn't hesitate to use photos that would help it.

 

Jeff as a business owner ask yourself will these photos hurt my business. If the answer is "yes" don't use them. Then ask if they will help. If the answer is "no" don't use them. If the answer is "yes," use them. In any case stay true to how you want to run YOUR business.

 

 

-Phil

Provided I had it in my contract, I would not hesitate to use those images. I see this as primarily a business decision. That couple, in good faith, decided to use your services to photograph their wedding, signed a contract, and you fulfilled the part of the contract that was due. You are not their priest, their confidant, or their premarital counselor. You have to feed your family, pay your bills, keep the lights on in your studio or the batteries charged in your cameras. I wouldn't hesitate to use them to build my portfolio.

 

Unless you intend to have a backyard barbecue with these people later on you need to be dispassionate, professional, analytical, and do what's in the best interest of your business. If your former bride or groom does not want you to use the photos sell them to him/her (that is your business.) If you still have an issue, ask yourself this question since the bride and groom broke up makes you not want to use their photos, are you then going to turn around and say any couples that get divorced you won't use their photos either?

 

This is where business analysis should prevail. I have very strong feelings on this. Professional photographers need to run Professional Photography BUSINESSES. If you just like photography and want to give it away or let other people determine what is best for you then don't do it professionally, be the friend that shows up and takes pictures.

 

No disrespect is intended, but if I can roughly translate what you said it would be, "Do you think I should use some of my best photos to promote my business even though someone else might not like it?"

 

My answer would be "YES!!!!"

You did a great job. Keep in mind, much of the value of photographs is in the eye of the beholder. While I enjoyed many of the shots and on the majority I wouldn't change a thing. I saw a few where you needed to work on framing (cutting off arms, etc...) The most important thing that I think you can do is learn to use a polarizer. The shots of the bride and the car are not some that I would have included unless I could've used a polarizer to get rid of the reflected light on the window.

 

When you say, "absolute beginner" I believe what you mean is that you perhaps have a great deal experience/training in the artistry side of photography but little experience in the business side. Be careful not to confuse the two. I see many beginners post, who have great skill, but spend almost all of their time working on the art side of photography, which it appears they have a great deal of skill in, and very little time working on the business side.

 

You are well on your way.

Holly,

You are to be commended. It takes a lot of guts to step into a critical situation and remain the stable element. Professional photographers have to deal with what you did quite frequently, and by that I mean point and clickers pretending to be professional.

 

Several years ago, I was asked to do something very similar and that is what started my second profession as a professional photographer. While I'm sure you were nervous, and the situation may not have been exactly pleasant I encourage you to use it as a building block to something better. Even though these were your friends, the amount of personality and presence of mind you have shown in this situation shows that you may have what it takes to be a professional photographer. I wish you the best with that.

 

To get your picture the way you want, all you really need to do is isolate the roses and copy them to a new layer. Then you can desaturate the background or use the levels to achieve the desired effect you want. Highlight the layer with the roses and use the saturation controls to get the roses as red or as subdued as you want.

 

Good luck with your future endeavors. :-)

Steve,

Yes this is the first wedding I have done with a wedding party THIS large. What is throwing me off is duplicate honor positions. I Guess it is more a mental thing.

 

Thanks for the insight.

I have an upcoming wedding that has me a bit challenged. The wedding party

will have 22-24 people in it. The bride has two maids of honor and the groom

has two best men. I have spent quite a bit of time planning the photography

for a group that large. As the wedding approaches I find myself second-

guessing the particular photographs that I had in mind for the bride and her

maids of honor and the groom and his best men. My question is, "has anyone

out there done a wedding where there were multiple best men and maids of honor

(this is my first) and if so, would you be willing to share your thoughts and

perspectives on key photographs to have with multiple honor positions?

 

I would also love to see some photos of any wedding party groups that large.

 

I have also arranged with the reception venue for power support as I am

bringing my monolights. Any opinion or thoughts on how to light a group this

large is welcome.

 

Specifics that might help: the wedding starts at 4 p.m. and the reception is

scheduled to last to midnight. The wedding will take place in Atlanta,

Georgia, and most of the evening will be outdoors. And before anyone says it

yes I know it's like 100ﾰ at night in Atlanta this time of year. I have

already explained to the bride that 24 people standing outside in summertime

in full length dresses and tuxedos is going to make for slightly "squishy"

picture. :-)

Alexis,

Most people are going to respond and tell you that they shoot RAW. Your issue, if you've never done a wedding before is not so much what you're going to shoot in, but what you're going to shoot. The business side of wedding photography is quite similar to the business side of many other professions. There are lots of books out there. What you asked is primarily a technical question. Given the fact that this is a very simple question that you asked, you may not yet be ready to go out and take wedding photos. Just so you know, I have seen professionals that can take a point-and-shoot Kodak camera off a drugstore shelf and make better pictures than someone who doesn't understand how to take a photograph could do with the Canon EOS1. As others have already stated, if you're going to take photographs at someone's wedding read our archives on how to take photographs. Buying a stellar camera, thinking that all of a sudden, you can take wedding photographs and do as well as a pro is like thinking that you can buy the same tennis racket that Andre Agassi uses and win Wimbledon. There's a little bit more of the "how" that you need to know before you want to do it professionally. I'm not trying to be mean, cynical, disrespectful, or discouraging at all but a good camera is no substitute for experience. I wish you well. :-)

Try this...

 

1. Isolate the necklace and dress. Create a separate layer with a 3 pixel feather.

 

2. Copy your background and perform a Gaussian blur (35) with a transparency of 30-40%

 

3. Arrange the layers so that the necklace and dress are on top. The semi transparent layer second and the background third. That should give a smoother appearance.

Jamie,

 

Rare is the time I meet face to face with a bride and don't make a sale unless it is my choice. (I stay clear of any potential Bridezillas.) While I can say my skill is acceptable I am no Monte Zuker or Denis Reggie. I am also not a bargin basement photographer. I learned years ago basic principles of selling that I have worked on in photography and other businesses I am involved in. I will share some basics and then tell you where I first heard of them.

 

1. People don't buy based on logic or PRICE. They buy based on how they FEEL. (this is why star bucks sells coffee they pay 3 cents a cup for to the consumer for $3-4.) When I sit down with a bride I view myself as an assistant buyer. I will use her money to help her purchase my services.

 

2. I ask for the sell. In several other businesses I have been involved in I was astounded that on roughly only ~3-5% of the sales calls did the sales "professional" actually ask for the sell! I have only been on a couple of sales presentations with other photographers but I immediately saw the same problem.

 

3. I NEVER speak cold or negative. By this I mean I have a ready answer for any question I think the b/g may ask. I have found that many brides have very similar concerns so I have made a list of potential questions they may ask and have memorized and practiced answers to them. No matter the situation I have a list of negative words I refrain from using under any circumstance. A brief example, If a bride has an issue with her weight I NEVER use the terms "heavy, fat, PHAT, large, big, etc.." (even if she does) I will say something to the effect of, "I have had tremendous success enhancing the beauty of curvy brides and I see that same potential here."

 

4. I never ask for money until I ensure that I have adequately put a motive to purchase my services into the mind of the B/G. I do this by asking a series of questions and subordinate questions. A subordinate question is one in which if you ask it and the answer is yes you have made a sale but if the answer is no it does not mean you haven't made a sale. (You get to ask another question)

 

5. I practice, and continually strive to improve upon, my ability to listen to the b/g. (This is also how I weed out Bridezillas) What they do not say is often as important as what they do say.

 

There are several other Keys I use but I hope you get the idea. I know this will sound strange but I learned these and my other techniques from two primary sources. (1) Napoleon Hill (Your Right to be Rich, Think and Grow Rich, and the Law of success in 16 Lessons) and (2) Zig Ziglar, Secrets of Closing the Sale and many other materials he offers.

 

As a final perspective on price, I don't buy into all the hype about digital. There have always been low cost alternatives to professional photography. There always will be. That is like Mercedes saying, "Oh my God Hyundai makes a cheaper car letﾒs lower our price!" My suggestion is that pro wedding photographers quit marketing to the Wal-mart bride. Start marketing to people who shop at Neiman Marcus, Lord and Taylor, and Sacs 5th Avenue (there are plenty of them too.)

 

 

I hope some of this will help you or others.

I have people pay me quite frequently to show them how their camera works! I go through the manual with them. Did I mention they pay me? Why is that? Few people care about reading a bunch of technical literature. As soon as they get to some word they don't understand such as "ambient" or "f-stop" they lose interest. I will be the wal-mart bride that buys that book. I don't market to them anyway.

Kate,

I feel your pain. I did something similar when I started out. I learned exactly what you did. These are the lessons you never forget!

Sounds like you have the high ground legally.

 

It has been my experience that Bridezilla�s are known to friends and family as just that. One of the first weddings I did on my own was with a Bridezilla who seemed to hate everything I did. I had the same fear you seem to have, �My reputation will be ruined!� (what little it was at the time) I kept thinking this until many months later a Mom called me and asked about photos for her daughters wedding. As a matter of course I asked how she had heard of me. To my astonishment it was from Bridezilla�s mother! I had to ask how that was possible considering the unfavorable venom that bridezilla had spewed about me. The Prospect told me that my troublesome bride had always been like that; - nothing was ever good enough for her. My prospect, as a guest, had been at the wedding, thought I did a good job, and was professional and said that Bridezilla�s mom thought so too! I have since learned to avoid bridezilla�s but also that it takes more than one flakey brides opinion to ruin my reputation.

 

Anyway, I would call the facility that hosted the wedding, ask when she booked the facility. They may or may not tell you but you can also call the DJ, Band, caterer etc. If they booked any of those people before you and gave them a different time than you got likely this bride was trying to scam you. If that was the case I would cancel immediately, and refund her money. If you feel that it was an honest error I still would not budge an inch on the purchase but I would do what was necessary to fulfill the obligations in the original contract. That way you can say in the future that you were professional and fulfilled the contract.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

Health and saftey? Is that the police?

I took this photo at a recent wedding. Normally I send the event manager a

personal thank you note with a great photo of the b/g. When I saw this photo

though I thought on this one I would send it (to a major city hotel) and say

something like here is proof people flip for your services. I wanted to get

your opinions of whether this would be well accepted or not. Looking for

opinions:-)<div></div>

Damian,

Here are a few quick thoughts,

 

PIC 1 (from left to right)

Hide the blue thing on her bouquet. Also take the time to drape her dress. The curve of it on the bench makes it look like she bunched it up to get it out of the way.

 

Pic 2

Dead grass does not make for a good backdrop.

 

PIC 3

Center the frame on the book case. Hide the blue thing on her bouquet. It draws the eye to the brides crotch (NEVER a good thing) Position her dress so that it Flows and is not wadded up on the floor. Tuck the grooms vest in so that he doesnﾒt look like he wore it to sleep in.

 

PIC 4

Bounce or diffuse your flash so that you don't get such harsh shadows. Is the groom intoxicated? If not look at how he has his eyes positioned compared to the Bride. Have him look up a bit more so that his eyes donﾒt appear subdued. Increase your depth of field so the bouquet is in focus, and turn it around so that you see the flowers. Also when the bride sits she will appear wide so turn her so that the edge of her body accentuates her breast not her tummy. Last but not least tell her to quit grabbing his crotch or thigh.

 

PIC 5

Some of the same comments as on pics 1-4 but also never use dead foliage as a backdrop.

 

A few over all comments. Watch your exposure. All seem about 1 stop over. If you want to do posed portraiture for wedding photos find ways to make hem show the love. Unless these two are brother and sister (in which case I would have grave concerns about PIC 4) you as a photographer need to relax them and get them to show how they feel toward each other.

Are there any resources for a sample wedding contract or what to include? I'm more interested in the legal-ese and other terms, and not the package details.

 

Answer: Get a book like Business and Legal Forms for Photographers by Tad Crawford. It will contain all you need in the way of legal forms to start complete with an explanation of the legalese.

 

 

I usually ask for a reasonable deposit and then payment is due a week before the wedding day.

 

Donﾒt ask for a deposit they are (by law) refundable, ask for a retainer it is not. What is the difference? A retainer is payment for the service of reserving a specific time, place, etc. A deposit is made to pay for a specific good or service, therefore if you don't perform you must refund.

 

Also, I give clients rights to the images for anything but commercial use or sale. I'd also like to be able to sell prints to guests, but wonder if giving the B&G the digital images eliminates that possibility.

 

Ya Think? I see this so often. It is a practice I totally disagree with. Why are you giving away your hard work? Wedding photography takes skill, education, practice, equipment, etc.. See the post from yesterday on what we do besides "click." If you give a B/G a copy of your high rez digital images you are in effect giving MONEY away. Look at it like this, if you were the author of a book would you give thousands of copies away and tell people "as long as you don't sell them" you can make as many copies as you want? Of course not. So why do you do it with wedding photos?

 

Should there be a clause that disallows them giving away images?

In fraud auditing there is a principle called the 10-80-10 rule. 10 percent of all people will never commit fraud, 80 percent will if circumstances arise, or through circumstances that they don't perceive as wrong (i.e. He gave me the high rez images that must mean they are mine) and the last 10% will commit it intentionally. Your Idea will work as long as you only do wedding photography for the first 10%.

 

 

What about my rights to use the images? I haven't been asking for a commercial release. I mostly will only use the images for self promotion and portfolio use. But what if I get a great image that could be used for stock or some other potential commercial/editorial licensing? Anybody put those terms in their contract?

 

Be careful here, your rights are exactly what you write in the contract and only for the B/G. Self promotion clauses are normal, full out model releases are not. Remember if you use photos other than the b/g you need a model release from them as well.

 

 

I know this stuff largely depends on how each of us decide to run our individual businesses, but I'm just interested in some opinions.

 

I donﾒt say any of this to be mean but more often I see the transparent nature of information and thus people devaluing it. As for the legal stuff if you end up in arbitration, court or talking to bridezilla you will find that, no , actually the leagal stuff is quite standard. If you didnﾒt put it in writing you are almost always, as a professional party, responsible for it.

 

Hope this helps;-)

Karie,

I am glad you took the time to plan. I too am a canon shooter so I can tell you skip the 5d. (I am sure others will argue) It is based on a 20d and while it does have a full frame sensor that is not so important. For the same price you can get two 30D bodies. Sell the XT on eBay or something and then spend your money on the glass. Canons tend to have difficulty with third party lenses (think error 99) so go Canon if you can afford it. Sigma if you canﾒt. The type glass you will need is dependant upon the product style you intend to deliver to your client. I use a 24-70mm and a 70-200mm mostly. Get a 2.8 (or faster) full range aperture. I say this because during candids, selective focus is a very commonly used technique. A consumer grade lens that ranges from ~3.5-6.3 will defeat your attempts to achieve SF.

 

Depending on what you mean by studio set up I suggest that you buy 3 580 ex's and a st-e2. with these you will be able to achieve almost any desired studio or flash effect.

Lisa,

Like many who have answered here I have a full time job outside of wedding photography. I really relate to Darice's answer. When my wife and I decided to have children several years ago, my decade old hobby started to look like a good choice as second career. So I started (as a business) and getting clients was easy compared to the business aspects of photography. I too (this is where I really relate to Darice's answer) nearly went off the deep end when I packed in wedding assignments. Even with a very efficient workflow you have to keep reigns on how much you do. I do not take more than two weddings per month anymore. The reason is simple, of all the photography I do weddings require the most work. I figure 20-60 hours of work outside the wedding day depending on the package people order.

 

I try never to book a month where all the weekends are shooting (wedding or otherwise) because it has such a negative impact on my family.

 

 

Hope this isn't too discouraging. Good Luck.

Thats great that you can book so far out just starting out. You use only your website? What is the URL?

There are no "heavy set" brides, just "full size" brides.

 

Having said that here are a couple of tips for posing "full size" brides:

 

When doing face shots raise the camera so that any extra flesh beneath the chin is hidden.

 

For full length ensure that the bride is positioned so that she is angled to the camera and has her neck extended (do not use a standard feminine chin to shoulder pose.)

 

When creating group shots ensure that the bride is positioned slightly behind the Groom/companion so that his hips slightly "diffuse" her waist. If you put him in back it will create an outline of her and emphasize the waist espically if he is in a contrasting color(black tux)

 

Hope this helps:-)

Matthew,

Not to burst your bubble but if you're going to quit your job and start taking wedding photos you are asking entirely the wrong questions. You see as most people in the wedding business can tell you that little bit of time you actually spend making the photos is insignificant compared to the time you will spend enticing the bride to buy your services, preparing photo albums, marketing your services, dealing with other vendors, researching venues, creating packing lists, dealing with associate organizations to keep your name out (florists, dress makers, djs, etc..) and dealing with everything from tax issues to equipment malfunctions (gee.. my favorite lens has been in the repair shop for two weeks now).

 

Not to mention any photographer of any type better have armor to deal with the criticism. Just because you like your photos doesnﾒt mean anyone else on this planet will. I have seen what I consider to be some of the best photos ever made and I will have a bride or groom criticize those photos. You are entering an extremely competitive realm and youﾒd better be able to explain your shooting style and why a bride should hire you over someone else. Not to mention you'd better be able to deal with the mother of the bride, which keep in mind, could be Bridezilla's mother.

 

Take my advice and the advice of so may others on this thread, do some weddings with a REAL pro, design a business plan, and then ease into the business. If you do this with no marketing plan or source of income other than the initial income from photography you will fail. True profitability in this business takes years to reach.

 

Think I am wrong? Then answer this, what is the slowest month for a wedding photographer? If I read your post right it will be the same month you start your business "officially."

 

I don't mean to be harsh but if you do this please do it in a manner where you won't damage yourself, others, or the general reputation of wedding photographers.

I guess I fell asleep at the keyboard:-) the last paragraph of my previous post should have read:

 

Perhaps you should consider also taking your studio lights. I know you said you didn't have much experience using those professionally; however a large part of "promotion" is having a sense of showmanship. If you set up some light stands and soft boxes or umbrellas you at least get your audience thinking, "Wow she's got all the pro equipment."