cyrus khamak

I was expecting you to come up with a response like that but again, I'm a positive thinker and tried not prejudge. Kevin DID NOT receive one pair of 3s after 6 years, he actually received 106 3s and 563 4s. Deservedly or not, the numbers are there for everyone to check. Your attempt to discredit the bee photo falls on the same line of trying to discredit the people behind the points raised so far, by calling them bad photographers. Even if you were sincere about your bee comment, I leave it for others to judge to see who the real "bad photographer" is. The fact is that some of do care about this great community and try to make it even greater.<BR>

Maybe the way to do it is what Brian is suggesting, making ourselves better at playing the game. Again, the fact is that we don't look at this as a game and we try to help make this the learning center that Philip envisions it to become.

you are not totally correct about your statement and your assumptions. Ignoring the facts will not remedy the situation<BR>

I'm not sure how familiar with the Macro world you are but let me give you an example if you'll be fair in your response. This image ,<a href=http://www.photo.net/photo/5562703> HERE, <a/> right now is the biggest macro of it's kind on the Internet or at least on this site(and yes, if you doubt me, show me a bigger one). This site should be proud to own this image. I put this up for rating, as I once in a while do so, to share it with the bigger community rather than my own limited friends. You know Tim, this photo was number 171 on the 15th page of the photo queue. That is right, on the fifteenth page number 171! Why, because of all the 3s and 4s it received very early on in the process. After two days, the 3s and 4s were removed, most probably because they were given through bogus account and the credit should be given to the team who figured this out and removed them. BUT, by the time the image statistic is updated it will be too late for it to have it's place on the TRP. Now, if the biggest macro of it's kind, at least on this site,(again, if you doubt me, please show me a bigger macro!) can't get near the TRP because of the deliberate down rating early on in the process, then there is truly no hope. I would like you to please respond to this. And if you think everybody is happy with the way the rating system is working now, take a poll and you'd be surprised. Like I've said earlier, I am confident Philip is going to come up with a better system when can get to it but for now my friend, there is too much abuse going on here.<BR>

With best regards.

I am quite sure Philip will come up with a way to improve the rating system when he gets to it. The biggest problem with the rating system in my opinion is the fact that it's TOO EASY for anyone who wants to manipulate photo rating. I discovered the flaws in the system the first weak the anonymous rating came to be. I proved it to the former administrators, for which I was banned instead of addressing the problem. Here's the biggest issue:<BR>

1- you can coordinate with friends and upload a photo at a certain time and they can go and rate the image anonymously which can push it up on the TRP.<BR>

2- you can have multiple accounts and rate yourself as some do.<BR>

3- if you are looking at the list of "critique request" and see a photo from a friend, you can go into anonymous rating and easily locate the image and over rate or under rate it, as you wish.<BR>

4- If you have photos on the TRP and see a "good photo" coming up on the "critique request " which may be a treat to your photos on the TRP, you can again, go into "rate recent" and rate low, anonymously.<BR>

5- A lot of members rate photos in a field in which they have NO expertise and qualifications to do so.<BR>

A FEW POSSIBLE REMEDIES IF THE PRESENT SYSTEM IS KEPT:<BR>

1- There should be no name on a photo when they appear on the anonymous rating list.<BR>

2- It should be made difficult for someone to locate a photo in the anonymous rating system easily. Maybe by having the photos appear at random of some sort.<BR>

3- Members should be encouraged to rate in the categories they are most familiar with, there are ways to do this.<BR>

4- A photo that appears on the TRP in a bogus way, it stays there for too long. It helps if the info is updated quicker.<BR>

5- when you see a member's rating history on his/her bio, direct rating and anonymous rating history should be different, that may help but it doesn't hurt. <BR>

6- There could be some sort of encouragement and credit given to "good" critiques maybe by qualified staff members. You can also become a distinguished critique on the site, a graduate critique from Greenspun's school of photography! :)<BR>

.<BR>

This is if the present system were to be kept. I have my own way of doing this and so does everyone else! You can require members to have a portfolio to be able to rate but anyone with a bogus account can come up with a few photos to upload and pretend they have a portfolio. I think Identity verification will help remedy this issue but it will not stop my family and willing friends to open accounts and start promoting me! The introduction of 1s and 2s will make it easier for abusers to knock down a photo. If everyone chose/rated a photo they liked rather than knock down a photo they didn't like, it would probably help the situation. <BR>

I find it to be easy to spot the abusers and I say this with confidence. I also have confidence that Philip will tackle rating issues as soon as he can get the time to do so but until then, God help us all!

First, for portrait work, you may want to consider this recent, comprehensive test done By "ShootSmarter University". Canon 5D does come first followed by Fuji S3 and D200.<BR> http://www.shootsmarter.com/DSLRshootout.html <BR>

 

My own experience with Nikon D70, Canon 20D, Fuji S3 and to a lesser extent, D200, makes the Fuji S3 a top choice for the following reasons:<br>

 

1-Right now you can buy it for about $1000.00, down from the original price of $2,500.00<br>

2-If you're not interested in spending time at the computer converting and post processing, it does deliver the best JPEG file in the industry with little or no post processing.<br>

3- It does give you an extra 1.5-2 stops of Dynamic range, if that is important to you.<br>

4- It does perform well up to ISO 1600 but you may find the ISO 1600 files on the softer side due to in-camera noise reduction but still better D70 and even D200, I believe.<br>

5-It is considered a 6MP camera but the sensor does provides another 6MP for dynamic range in it's high quality mode which to my experience gives me an quivalant of 8MP and even 10 with a good lens and good lighting.<br>

It also works very well with studio strobes, corded or wireless and it syncs up to 180 <br>

Cons:<br>

1-It's a very slow camera if you shoot in raw and it's highest quality mode. It will only allow you to shoot a frame every 11 second or three frames before the buffer fills. A buffer upgrade may be available in your area which allows you 7 frames before it fills, for a cost of course(around $300.00.) In JPEG mode and specially in it's normal Dynamic range it should be just fine for your use.)<BR>

2- The raw files are uncompressed with a size of 25 MP which is partly due to it's 14 bit sensor output, VS 12 in the other cameras mentioned.<BR>

3- It is based on N80 body with not so many bells and whistles. Although not a problem for me but I have heard many complain about focusing in low and very low light and the view finder is not that big and bright. I believe it has the same focusing system as does the Nikon D70.<BR>

4-You may find the review time on the LCD slow but I personally don't review files that much at all.<BR>

having said all that, once you appreciate and get used to it's file output, it would be hard to give it up. I no longer own the 20D and use my Nikon D70 very seldom.<br>

Hope that help, with kind regards.

I agree with some of the proposals you are making. How can someone who is UNFAMILIAR with let's say Macro photography and the challenges it presents , get to put a number on a close Macro and complain about "not enough DOF"? <BR>

I am not so excited by numbers but I know a lot of members are. Even most of the ones who complain about not receiving comments, they really look for numbers<BR>

I'm just thinking out loud and everyone can help formulate this:

If you WERE to go with an appointed panel, What if:<BR>

1-Everyone can comment and rate<BR>

2-the panel will see some good critiques and fair ratings and they approve and check the names of those members.and the member get's a qualifying star next to his/her name. If you accumulate enough stars, you join the ever growing panel and your ratings will count towards photos going to the TRP, photos of the day/week or whatever you may want to call it.<BR>

This method may not be perfect but would give members an incentive to become better critique and join the panel. I think this may work better than a permanent group of people deciding all the time.<BR>

3- The name of the photographer should be anonymous at the time of rating and so should be the ratings of the panel but not necessarily the names of the members of the panel.

"Carl Root , sep 15, 2006; 04:47 p.m.

Some of these posts seem a bit paranoid, but much as it may look that way, Cyrus K's is not." <BR>

Thank you Carl for understanding. It was the first ever acknowledgement of this problem by anyone! But, no one has to believe me, the photo is still there and so are the records. The photo is under my previous account.<BR>

Yes, Ben, they go even further than that. Just look at the "top photographers" list and look at who SOME of those guys are and look at their rating habit and you WILL soon figure out how they got to be on that list and so close to the top. Just as that list is not a good representation of great photographers on this site, so is not some of the photos we see pop up top on the TRP. I have a clear understanding of how that happens too and you may ask me how!<BR>

Now, please understand. I am not anxious as why I am not on that list. As a matter of fact, I don't deserve to be anywhere near that list. I do however, care about this site and I do want it to work for everyone. I am a paid member and I have also paid for several others on this site to become paid members, the records should be there. But, it is discouraging to see that a good site like this can be hijacked by a group that is motivated by their own personal agenda.

Some of these 3/3 raters are the ones who have a horse in the race and a photo on TRP. They specifically rate low because they want to stop a prospective photo coming up to compete. <BR>

HOW DO I KNOW THIS? I do and we caught a few and reported them to abuse@photo.net which virtually has been useless. <BR>

There was(is) a guy for instance who had OVER 30 surrogate account, many of which originating from his own IP. He would down-rate all photos on the all time TRP , one by one to bump his own photos up. LISTEN TO THIS, 8 out of 16 photos on the 'all time TRP" ended up being his, including a badly photograph photo of a flower.<BR>

I sent the guy an email, warning him. He replied that if I did anything about this, he'd pull his photos but my photo will also vanish from the list (I used to have a photo top or second on the "all time, average, average TRP under my previous account). <BR>

I sent him a copy of an email I was going to hand over to the administrators. He pulled his photos and put down 3 PAIRS OF 3/3 on my photo in less than 5 hours, ! My photo is no longer near that page! He is not the only one who would do such things, I have other examples, just ask me!<BR>

The administrators DID NOTHING about his behavior, nor did they do anything about his 3 pairs of 3/3s AND THAT IS THE FACT!<BR>

Now, Mr. Greenspun, is this what your site is all about? If you CANNOT and WILL NOT address issues like this, will there be any confidence left in the members of this community?!

I think rating photos is a good idea, When someone says "a good photo", we all want to know how good. Besides, it's what drives the system and creates excitement. But, we all know the problem with the rating system.<BR>

Please, let's evaluate these suggestions and see why they would NOT work, before we dismiss them and they may very well be inapplicable . <BR>

1- We all have a good idea of who mate/high raters are. Now, why not have a a way to anonymously identify a high/mate rater, let's say by hitting a hot button or sort next to the name. in a sense, everyone will be building up a record of sort of their rating behavior, judged by thousands and thousands members of the bigger community.<BR>

We will set a threshold above which, the persons's name will appear, let's say in green and that should be considered as, let's say, not a serious rater. We will make this threshold high enough to get a better judgement. If the person gets more negative hits, up to a second threshold, then the name will appear, let's say in red and the rating of the person will no longer be averaged out for the TRP. This should discourage members from high/mate rating, it would discourage me! Or, maybe we can have more that two colors or no colors at all but a way to evaluate our ratings.<BR>

2- some members don't like, let's say bird photos and I know they down- rate bird photos because they are fed up of so many birds making it to the TRP. Why not have a top photo in every category and that should alleviate some of the anger these member may feel.<BR> Please, think about it, wouldn't it help? I know this have been raised already and I DO agree with the idea. We are having genres compete and that doesn't seem to be fair. We may have a much bigger pool of members who find comfort and satisfaction in seeing a bird sitting on a branch than taking pleasure in looking at an abstract, no matter how skillfully it may have been done, the abstract will never be recognized an will leave a very frustrated member.<BR>

The next problem is with members who rate photos when THEY ARE NOT qualifies to do so, but that is another subject.

Hello Philip,<BR>

I am so very glad you have taken over, your genius is at work already, really!<BR>

Phil, I have had a big problem here with PN which is costing me and have been trying to resolve it patiently for the last 12 months. I have sent dozens of emails to the administrators with no reply. I have even been to Carlile, MA twice and I was promised that it would be taken care of but I guess other commitments have taken priority and my problem have never been resolved.<BR>

Both of us will agree that this will not be a good place to discus this so I ask you to please let me know how I can get in touch with you personally to explain it to you in an email. This will save me a trip to MIT, Harvard square or Lincoln and I live in Boston area.

I want you and ONLY you to address this and when you read what I have to say, you'll agree that this will NOT be a waste of time for you as I know you must be extremely busy.<BR>

If you don't know your way around this site, let me tell you that you can obtain my email address and once you do, I'll have my contact address :)<BR>

I thank you in advance.

M.M., thank you for commenting.

 

First off, I didn't know you could anonymously pay for someone. Last time I made someone become a member, I had her mail me her password and paid for her through her own account. I guess I have to spend some time finding my way around this site.

 

Second, this thread was actually meant for members to make a pledge to pay for whatever number of subscriptions they are willing to pay. That's why I said the site administrators can probably verify that we have fulfilled our commitments, so that it won't be empty promises. Also, I was expecting some members to say O. K., I was just a member before but now I'm a paid subscriber

 

Third, it's amazing how often we think everyone on this site lives either in the US, Canada or at best, in Europe. There are members here from places were people simply DO NOT have credit cards. Even if they have Internet connection at home, they would have to go to their bank every single month to make a deposit towards their Internet fees. These are the lucky ones. I know of members who go to Internet cafes and pay a good portion of their daily income just to be able to upload images and be part of this community. Now, I don't see any shame for a person such as this to say yes, I'd like to enjoy all benefits of being a paid subscriber including not having to pay for all ads to load up.

 

I guess I could have, lets say, pay for all the Iranians on this site. But, it didn't look right and I didn't really want to make them feel like they owe me something. Besides, I could not pay for everyone anyway. The whole idea of me making a commitment first, was to encourage everyone else to do so as well. I thought if we are making all these demands for change and improvement of this site, why not contribute, if we can, as these changes take a lot of time and effort.

Thank you DD and thank you Don for showing up and commenting, it means a lot. I think if this thread was better promoted it might have led somewhere but I can't do that because it might have negative effects. No one is showing up to pick up their membership either. I am not getting any help from the administrators maybe because they can't do it either or they just know better!

Thanks again for your courage.

Sorry, I did have quite a few paragraph breaks but did not show up in the final post.

I very much like the new changes Brian has made to the critique

request page. Now, although a lot of scrolling but one gets the

chance to read the poster's description of what the image is all

about before they put a number on it. In the spirit of cooperation to

make this even a greater site, I wish the same kind of approach,

somehow, would be implemented in the rate recent and anonymous rating

page as our friends will put numbers on photos without actually

realizing what the photo is all about.

Now, having a programing background, I have an inkling of what it

takes to make all these changes and maintain this complicated site

and I think Brian is doing a TREMENDOUS job doing it. If you have

been around the net, you know that there is no other site that would

compare to this, in terms of it's layout and it's interactive nature.

Considering all that, I'm compelled to make two suggestions, one to

Brian and one to our dear community members.

To Brian:

I really "do feel your pain"! I could NEVER begin to imagine doing

what you have been able to do here, truly!

Having said that, I feel the anonymous rating page can do with

some attention. I know, you are sick and tires of hearing all this

and believe me, rightfully so. I am not interested in numbers as I am

in good, sincere critique, but right now, as it seems like, the

following is possible on the anonymous rating page:

1- If I have a photo on TRP, I can easily go through the images and

down-rate other photos on that page anonymously.

2- I can tell all my friends to watch for my photo being posted at

around a certain time and get favorable ratings.

3- I can rate a photo favorably when I recognize a friend's name

under it and down-rate a photo by a member I may not like, with

impunity.

 

There are a few suggestions but I'm sure you are ahead of everyone on

this or maybe you are aware of all this and things are under

considerations.

My suggestions to our community members:

We are what makes this system work. Our constant complaining will

probably make us feel better by letting some steam out but what we

can really do is to offer some tangible cooperation. All these

changes and services being offered by this site comes at a great cost

and effort. If you have any idea of what it takes, then so much the

better and if you don't, please allow me, it's much more than you can

imagine.

If you check around, any site that offers you gigabytes of

storage with some decent services, will ask you for a membership fee

to be able to afford all those services, you probably know who they

are. So, please, be generous, be cooperative, be fair and consider

becoming a paid member. Twenty five US dollars are not going to kill

most of us but collectively, it will compensate for all these

tremendous effort being put in this site by the administrators.

I, for one, will make a pledge to pay for TEN members to become

paid subscribers. Now, if you can afford paying for one, two, ten or

more members, so please, be the generous, cooperative person you

always thought you were and make your pledge. Also, if you like to

become a paid member but you REALLY CANNOT afford, or you are in a

country where $25.00 is a lot of money or simply do not have the

means for transaction, also put your name down so everyone who'd like

to help you become a member knows who you are. The administrators

will probably be able to confirm that we have lived up to our

commitment.

Thank you for reading this.

<div></div>

Meant to attach this image.

Placing a peice of B+W film negayive over the viewfinder while shooting into the sun, I believe is very effective. I've been shooting into the sun using this method for years and I still have very good eyes!