cyrusk

Tony, I wouldn't chose any system other than democracy but we can always make democracy work better! Actually the very same notion of democracy intrigued me to write here. In a democracy, one should never prevent anyone to vote for someone they would like to unless they are fairly and legally disqualified to do so.

 

Again, mate rating had hijacked the system here and it had to be stopped but preventing everyone to vote the way they'd like to, seemed to be a short cut. it seems like This system is punishing the "law abiding citizens" but the "criminals" will soon hack the system. Maybe this is the best way to do it, I don't know and I have not been following the discussion on this matter. I also know that it's very easy to sit on the sideline and criticize the system but it doesn't mean that one shouldn't.

 

I can understand how impossible it may be to try to please everyone and it will NEVER be achieved but there are steps that seems worth taking that would take us in that direction. When I click on "Gallery" and see the tabs for "Critique Forum", "Rate Recent" and "Top Photos", I would also like to see a tab that says something like "Rating Guide." Why there should be any resistance to providing such a tab, I sure could use one. As a matter of fact, that was the first thing I started to look for when I joined this site. If a 12 or a 15 year old is going to rate your image, wouldn't you prefer to see that person have a basic understanding of what to rate and how to rate it?

I think I know what Art is referring to. I've heard and red here and there that some users, when they want to rate an image, they first look at your portfolio and then rate that image instead of rating an image on it's own merits.

Harvey, I can see how sticky this rating issue can get. I agree with you as I also have rated with a few 2s and tens of 3s. I think it's fine if one is doing this in good judgment. It's possible that I'm taking the word Critique" literally here. To me it means unbiased, informed judgment and this is not practiced enough, Just a couple of example:

 

1) If one thinks there are too many bird images on the site, and I agree, there are, just rate them lower in the originality columns but be fair to the aesthetics. Some people spend their whole life doing this and they don't like to see some bird hater put a 1 or a 2 on the image they tried hard to capture, I can understand that.

2) One cannot be a critique to all kinds of photographs, if you are not familiar with Microphotography for instance, don't just put a 2 or a three on someone's image because "I don't like the DOF." just like If you listened to classical music all your life, don't audition a rock group.

 

 

I gather, these are some of the roots of discontent for some users and that's why I tend to take Gustavo's approach. I still think a suggestion page to help users rate better, might improve the ratings situation. I don't understand, this is a site accessed by "many kids and people of all walks of life" (I heard a few pros who used to frequent this site, say this) doesn't it make sense to help them be better critiques?

Dear Harry,

I do not post that often. As a matter of fact this is my first, but if I post a thread, I would appreciate your comment. I believe in and strive for peace and harmony but not at the cost of dignity. It takes a bit of anger and hatred to launch an offense but it sure take a lot of character to make amends, thank you. I can certainly imagine and understand the frustration the good and diligent staff on this site might be experiencing. One can't even begin to try to please everyone but we all trying to do the best we can.

Dear Harry,

I had no intention of writing on this page any more, mainly because I have no time and patience to allow myself fall into this trap and start a whole new discussion about unnecessary, unrelated and nonsensical matters. I may not have the command of the English language the way you would have liked me to, but trust me, I have been given my share of intelligence. Although I'm not seeking your apology here, but let me tell you this: I don't think anybody else has been offended by your comments. You have responded to MY posting, you have tried to ridicule and offend me by your undignified mockery of MY typos and comments. Now my friend, if you feel there is a need for admission of laps of common curtesy, you cannot look me in the eye, but you DO know my name and it is Cyrus.

 

This is a commercial site, being maintained and run for a profit which is mainly gained by the subscription fee of the users like me and believe me, I've paid more than my subscription. If this site is getting millions of hits a day, it's mainly because of its users and if you provide a forum for feedback, I advise you not to treat them the way you have treated me here. Brian has done an excellent job of slowing down mate rating. I found no reason why a head shot of pigeon should pile up sevens to the moon for originality. I never complained about low rating but I understand those who do. The photos in Rate Recent are being rated, as well as by some seasoned pros, by children and a lot of low level amateurs like me. What is so" lacking of rudimentary logic" to suggest to provide a basic guideline to help some people how to rate better. For instance, if you don't like birds, it does not mean that you should rate a bird image with a 1 or a 2, no matter how aesthetically pleasing it is. Some people just don't know that they should judge an image on it's merit.

 

I am going to make a copy of this page to hand deliver it to Irving Terrace. I'd like to know if this is what Philip envisioned for his trophy site, The man who always took pride in being available to all, students and colleagues, friend and foe alike.

Harry, think about it, Your response here, shows a lot of weakness on your part. You have behaved and responded in a less than a dignified manner, just like some of our politicians these days; to discredit an idea, attack the person behind the idea.

 

First and foremost, I'm a paid member of this site and have all the right to post here and express my opinion. After all, this is the reason why this forum was provided to all, or am I wrong on this one as well?!!

 

second, I cared enough about this site to be compelled to post what I did.

 

Third, when I wrote what I wrote, I was in a big rush to leave my place of business and was more concerned about conveying my message than worrying about someone like you attacking me on my typos.

 

Last and foremost, this site is accessed by paid members from all across the globe who cannot and are not required to speak the proper Queen English that you do! Does this mean that they should not post here without worrying about an individual like you tearing them apart?! If you were a young juvenile, I might have taken comfort in the presumption that you are driven by your hormones, but you are not!

 

Obviously, you have found some truth in my criticism otherwise it would not have knocked you off your rockers to attack me as a person.

I am not sure who the person of you is as I'm posting here for the first time. If you are a staff member, then my condolences to Philip Greenspun and if you are just another user, then my sympathy goes to all those who are unhappy here. I know how hard Brian is trying to fix things because I'm a programer myself. We are trying to push him to come up with a perfect system in an imperfect world.

OK, here's my two cents:

I realized the flaws in the rating system since day one I joined this

site. I sent 4 E-mails to the administrator which were not responded

to, I gave up.

I don't think we should ditch the rating system, this is what drives

most users and increases participation and traffic flow. It's nice to

hear someone say "terrific" but we all like to know how terrific.

Now, we all know that there are users who have no idea of how to rate

an image and some just click-rate out of boredom, etc. None of us

want our image to be rated by someone whom we think is not qualified

to do so, but still users put out their images to be rated because

not that many people would take their time to leave a substantial,

constructive critique.

 

Here's what I think should be done:

1- PN should have a comprehensive guide on how to critique an

image. This will provide a guide and educates users on what to look

for when critiquing.

2- Eliminate the rate recent thing, IT IS NOT WORKING.

3- Make it mandatory to leave a comment of minimum length and

encourage them as to why the person likes, dislikes, gives a 7 or a 1

and the next step is the crucial one..

4- Have an anonymous rating system for people who leave critiques.

Here, other users will decide, if they chose to do so, if the user

who left the note is a good critique, on a scale of course. You may

also want to, something like the balloon you have for paid

membership, highlight their names as how good a critique they are

judged to be. This will create a lot of incentive for good and

responsible judgment and will encourage users to participate.

5- The new measure for stopping mate rating IS NOT WORKING. This

measure dissuades users from rating and besides, no two good

photographers can rate one another's images with a 7 unless they wait

a month or something like that. You should allow people to rate as

many times as they'd like to, rate as high as they want to, but the

real value of their given numbers will be evident in the "Judicial

Value" other users put on them. Let's say if I'm a bogus account and

there is an average value of 0,1, or two has been given to me, my

rating will automatically be eliminated, or something like that. Or

maybe a 7 given by someone with a value of below let's say 3 or even

4, will automatically be adjusted for. These are simple algorithms

and can easily be applied. Sure, this might not be the perfect

solution but every single user can participate and do something about

it to make it work better. I have my own details worked out and will

be happy to share it.

6- Here is where the doors of possibilities open. You might want to

have a page for CRITIQUES of the week, which is being decided by the

participation of all users. Then, one could look and browse through

the images they have critiqued. I think this will eventually serve a

better purpose than "the picture of the week" thing. It will

encourage users to understand photography and be better critiques. If

you want to get nasty and vindictive, you may want to have a list of

worst critiques of the week as well!!

7- You probably want to keep membership as high as possible and

keep the traffic flow as much as possible. These measures, I think,

will be self correcting, will keep the excitement level high and will

eventually satisfy users as a whole. You may want to keep the records

as they are but in the new chapter users may want to resubmit their

images if they chose to do so.

Best wishes.

OK, here's my two cents:

I realized the flaws in the rating system since day one I joined this site. I sent 4 E-mails to the administrator which were not responded to, I gave up.

I don't think we should ditch the rating system, this is what drives most users and increases participation and traffic flow. It's nice tohear someone say "terrific" but we all like to know how terrific.

Now, we all know that there are users who have no idea of how to rate an image and some just click-rate out of boredom, etc. None of us want our image to be rated by someone whom we think is not qualified to do so, but still users put out their images to be rated because not that many people would take their time to leave a substantial, constructive critique.

 

Here's what I think should be done:

1- PN should have a comprehensive guide on how to critique an image. This will provide a guide and educates users on what to look for when critiquing.

2- Eliminate the rate recent thing, IT IS NOT WORKING.

3- Make it mandatory to leave a comment of minimum legth and encourage them as to why the person likes, dislikes, gives a 7 or a 1 and the next step is the crucial one..

4- Have an anonymous rating system for people who leave critiques. Here, other users will decide, if they chose to do so, if the user who left the note is a good critique, on a scale of course. You may also want to, something like the balloon you have for paid membership, highlight their names as how good a critique they are judged to be. This will create a lot of incentive for good and responsible judgment and will encourage users to participate.

5- The new measure for stopping mate rating IS NOT WORKING. This measure dissuades users from rating and besides, no two good photographers can rate one another's images with a 7 unless they wait a month or something like that. You should allow people to rate as many times as they'd like to, rate as high as they want to, but the real value of their given numbers will be evident in the "Judicial Value" other users put on them. Let's say if I'm a bogus account and there is an average value of 0,1, or two has been given to me, my rating will automatically be eliminated, or something like that. Or maybe a 7 given by someone with a value of below let's say 3 or even 4, will automatically be adjusted for. These are simple algorithms and can easily be applied. Sure, this might not be the perfect solution but every single user can participate and do something about it to make it work better. I have my own details worked out and will be happy to share it.

6- Here is where the doors of possibilities open. You might want to have a page for CRITIQUES of the week, which is being decided by the participation of all users. Then, one could look and browse through the images they have critiqued. I think this will eventually serve a better purpose than "the picture of the week" thing. It will encourage users to understand photography and be better critiques. If you want to get nasty and vindictive, you may want to have a list of worst critiques of the week as well!!

7- You probably want to keep membership as high as possible and keep the traffic flow as much as possible. These measures, I think, will be self correcting, will keep the excitement level high and will eventually satisfy users as a whole. You may want to keep the records as they are but in the new chapter users may want to resubmit their images if they chose to do so.

Best wishes.