'One Gesture: Many Meanings'

At almost record depth beneath a major boulevard in Kyiv, Ukraine,

as a Metro train hurtles through its tunnel, one students aims a now

universal gesture at another, and far from eliciting anger, the gesture

has numerous and myriad meanings, some of which involve evoking

mirth, playfulness, and acknowledging friendship, because to aim

this gesture without threat and in gest at another man is a true test of

shared friendship.

Your ratings, critiques and observations are invited and most

welcome. If you rate harshly, very critically or wish to make a

remark, please submit a helpful and constructive comment; please

share your photographic knowledge to help improve my

photography. Thanks! Enjoy! john

Once primarily an 'American' or US gesture, this extended middle finger has achieved near universal acceptance as an obscene gesture that was not recognized when I was a youth.

Still, in Germany the index finger instead of the middle finger is extended at the risk of offense or even a fight, and the Italians have an ages-old sign language all their own that is quite complex, but because of the influence worldwide of America and especially US films in which this gesture is featured, and for other reasons, including immigration and emigration, this gesture has worldwide recognition as an 'obscene' gesture.

But strangely, its meaning to the boy, right, is not obscene at all, but taken as a sign of friendship and endearment, in part because his 'friend' has dared to extend in public that 'obscene' middle finger without provocation and not to elicit anger, but the reverse.

In other words, this is a strange kind of upside down 'language' or 'idiom' in which 'bad' is 'good', 'left' is 'right' and 'F*** you' is really,"you are my close friend --so close I can give you in your face a universal sign of hate and disgust, and you know so well you are my friend so, you immediately dismiss any obscene meaning, while still acknowledging it otherwise as a universal 'obscene' gesture." 

In fact its power as a signal of friendship, I posit, comes precisely because of its other 'obscene' meaning directed to the friend with absolute safety in the acknowledgement of the power and safety of that friendship.

Or whatever . . . . you really don't have to think so much about it to view it, and for me, to appreciate it . . .  but if the gesture disgusts you, please rate the photo as a photo, not the gesture.

john

John (Crosley)

John you captured the moment, Great street photography to me is just awesome stuff. Someday i'll give it a try. Expressions, gestures, the tones  are great! I can almost here there conversation. Nice work,  Kelson.

I've never seen a comment from you, so I'm especially glad that you've finally ventured a first comment on this photo -- a winner in my book and a fun one to take.  (I showed it to them with their 'thumbs up' approval.

I'm sure it offends some, but in my mind it's simply wonderful for its spontaneity and frankly, its fun ---  something that is not of 'wooden' subjects as so many subjects affect when one starts to capture them staring stark into the camera lens very stiffly and unspontaneously.

I refuse often to take those photos, or I take those photos, and then when the person expresses relief that I've taken the photo and returns to naturalness I just keep shooting and make it known, then show them the result and how much better it is.  I get a lot of fans on the street that way.

To be frank, sometimes if those 'wooden subjects' are not threatening and to promote naturalness and spontaneity, I'll give THEM the finger with a free digit, and watch them crack up -- but I have to be careful in doing that, of course. 

One makes judgments every day for one's safety and acceptance, and I'm almost never wrong, but in the event something is taken wrongly, I have a host of skillful maneuvers to get 'out of trouble'.

Thank you for a wonderful first comment; you are welcome here, whether with an accolade or a well thought out critique that points out a deficiency, so long as it comes from an honest place.

Best to you, and welcome.

john

John (Crosley)

I got another quite different photo of these two guys interacting playfully without the gesture that was worthy of posting.

If I had a censor, I would have posted that one, or if I were posting in a church show or showing before a bunch of very 'religious people' I would have brought that photo out; it's worthy of posting here, just a smidgen less joyful, but still . . . . it's two boys being boys.

Some day here or somewhere else I may post it; you'll recognize it if you see it -- same guys.

Good street photos are not so hard to take, but getting great expressions with good street photos is the hardest and most elusive part, which is what sets this photo apart in my mind.

john

John (Crosley)

http://thumbs.photo.net/photo/4060908-sm.jpg

John, your timing is fantastic! I am much slower with these sorts... (just envy)

Wonderful shot!

john

John  (Crosley)

I miss much more than I get by tons.

I have a technique, however.

When I see movement or people acting in an atypical manner I work my way toward them and make sure my camera is adjusted (it usually is anyway), then I wait near them as they do their hi-jinks until just THE MOMENT, when I spring forward, and with a wide angle it's hard not to be noticed, usually.

Most do not mind and incorporate what I've done into part of their fun, and want to see the capture and keep up the interesting behavior, then incorporate being photographed into it.

Then timing is not so important at all - because it's all with permission.

Thank for the nice compliment.  ;~))

john

John (Crosley)

This gesture is perceived as insulting everywhere - in our country as well ..

This gesture was probably the game for you, as for the public.

Young people saw near them foreigner who wants to take a shot.

.And they created a fun game using obscene gestures.

Possibly you're correct, but my camera was hidden, and I was turned away, so my photographing surprised them.

They were involved in their hi-jinks including gestures which attracted, not the opposite.

They continued even after I took this photo, including a personal affront gesture that involved touching that allowed me to take a wonderful photo which I may post here or elsewhere far in the future.

I take such photos also with telephoto from those who absolutely are unaware of my 'presence' because they cannot be aware of my presence, and in fact I am NOT present for the purposes of those telephoto subjects.

In any case, this is not always an abusive or obscene gesture -- it can be one of friendship, in defiance of its apparent meaning, and I prove it sometimes by giving friendly subjects 'the finger' to loosen them up from time to time.  It works its purpose 95% of the time, too.  I have to judge my subject with care, and how I give the gesture, but almost always it's met with great fun.

Thanks for your comment.

john

John (Crosley)

My wife.  This was "fuck you" to someone. Don't remember the details.

Cartagena, Colombia, 2013. Both these fellows flipped me off as I took their picture at 210mm distance. I instinctively flipped them off almost instantly. We stared at each other for a couple of seconds and we all started to laugh. I waved and was on my way. Nowhere near as well done as your image John, but as long as we are sharing these I thought I would contribute.

When I was a youth, this gesture was not known world-wide; each country had its own gesture.  The Germans still have their own, for instance.

Thanks for sharing; each photographer (male especially) has surely seen such a response numerous times, and most of us have given the same 'reply' you have, with a smile.

Thanks and best to you.

john

John (Crosley)

John, the gesture was known "world-wide" long before you were a youth.

The gesture dates back 2500 years (Wikipedia). It was known by the Greeks, the Romans and throughout the Middle Ages.

Magellan often used this gesture during his round-the-world journey in the 1500s but it was so poorly received on the island of Mactan that he was consequently killed my angry, screaming filipinos during the "Battle of Mactan".

Great story, and if you have a link, I'll stand corrected.

Can you post one, please?

I don't have a monopoly on research or truth.  I readily admit if I'm wrong, but I need something to rely on that I can point on which has somewhat widespread acceptance.

Fascinating. 

I used this gesture sometimes when I was in Europe the first time in the early '70s, and people seemed completely baffled, especially in Germany where the pointed index finger evokes the same response, and in Italy there is a whole hand/finger vocabulary -- that's how I came to my conclusion, but I'm ready, willing, eager and happy to learn more.

Please post that link.

john

John (Crosley)

Here is the same gesture in its more expected role.

john

John (Crosley)

Svetlana is correct.  Additionally (at least in my couple of cultures) it is used almost exclusively by adolescents and by low class adults in, for example, road rage situations. For adults, it is self deprecating! It is a statement  of where on stands on the social ladder. Seems to me however, that women get away with it as if it is a "coming out" sign of "women's liberation". For anyone who carries a firearm (legally) would take it to a "felony assault" and land that "anyone" in jail very quickly and maybe prison. This is my dissertation not thesis as we discussed in another post :-) 

I've written millions of paid published words and edited as many more.

I try to give understanding to those who write their intended meaning yet I can make no sense of the relationship you try to posit between something or other and 'felony assault', firearms and prison, and note that one is free to give this gesture under the US free speech and expression guarantees of the US Constitution to a police officer, though one is best NOT to, since it strikes an emotional response.

The anti-spam software prevents me from quoting you directly here, or I would.

Can you explain your reasoning, since the entire idea seems incomplete at best and un-understandable to me?

john

John (Crosley)

My reasoning?

Take a Concealed Carry Course and/or read any manual on the law and the legal aspects of "Concealed Carry".

One who legally carries a deadly weapon loses one's "free speech and expression guarantees".

Do not test it!! Keep your finger to yourself.