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© © 2013, John Crosley/Crosley Trust, All rights reserved, No reproduction or other use without prior express written permission from copyright holder

johncrosley

1/320th sec. f 6.3 120 mm @ ISO 400, 75% crop.

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© © 2013, John Crosley/Crosley Trust, All rights reserved, No reproduction or other use without prior express written permission from copyright holder
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Street

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Whether you are interested in the weathered hands, the hand tying

of the cloves, or the possibility that these cloves will spice up some

food to be extra tasty, this photo is the product of less than one

fortunate second of street shooting with a telephoto with a watchful

eye. Your ratings, critiques and observations are invited and most

welcome. If you rate harshly, very critically, or wish to make a

remark, please submit a helpful and constructive comment; please

share your photographic knowledge to help improve my

photography. Thanks! Enjoy! john

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This photo shows well also in color; I had a choice to make and decided for black and white. 

 

If printed, I would do so on metallic paper.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

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Hhm

My first reactionwas "Ooh, nice" but then when looked closer and saw the treatment I thought "Oh."

At first sight this looks quite arty and considered but the un-natural PP lends it an air of Enthusiastic Amateur which brings on a cliche alert.

A near miss IMO.

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I'm interested in your take on this, as I'm the original 'don't touch the ju-ju sort of guy' regarding 99% of my captures.

 

Go browsing my almost 2,000 posts here, and see if you are struck the same way by more than a handful.

 

I like this one, and it's an opportunity to stretch my skills -- this process is all about fun for me and sharing with others.  I'd be interested in seeing the others who do such treatment that make this a cliché (as by definition to be a cliché, there must be loads of similar treatments floating around, so where are they, this inquiring mind wants to know, since I don't get around so much in those circles?)

 

I appreciate the time you took to give me your impression.  (Were you a theatre critic in a former life, or in another part of your life?)

 

;~))

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

 

 

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The total time from observing to capture on this photo (with camera already to eye) was less than one second.

 

I had been hunting through a crowd in a likely place for something 'interesting' and saw this old woman (grandmother) hand tying bunches of garlic cloves.

 

In an instant I moved my lens toward her and snapped with this being the one of four frames (the only one where focus was perfect on the cloves), and all were taken in less than one second from finding the target to accomplishing the captures.

 

Processing took some longer time.

 

The resulting capture on NEF (raw) and in JPEG was flat, overexposed and although it had good composition, it was basically uninteresting, except my trained eye saw potential, and when I see potential, I dwell on it.

 

This also is a crop, as the garlic was centered in the original frame, and cropped to the right in this version; a gift of the 24 megapixel sensor which allows such liberties, a liberty formerly I would never have considered in part because of a no crop sensibility and in part because the Image Quality would have been pretty degraded by such a crop. 

 

No more, however.

I broke several of my own personal restrictions in processing this image, but then rules are sometimes breakable when they're self-imposed.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

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You done a very good work here! The composition and the lights are perfect! I know that this kind of street pictures have uncertain results for short times of excecution. This is not the case!
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This was taken as a glimpse through a crowd of buyers and lookers in a bazaar from across a path at 120 mm of a woman who would shield her face if she thought I was going to take a photo (of her face).  She always thought I was interested in her interesting face, but when someone makes it clear 'no' then 'no' it often is, so I found her hands and the garlic even more interesting.

 

Looks carefully posed, doesn't it, like in a studio where a photographer studied it and brough in a model and then worked the better part of an hour to set up lights, etc., instructed the model (an old woman) just so, then finally executed.

 

Not so.

 

Total time from observation to execution's completion, less than one second!

 

 

Thanks for the compliments; someone above called it a cliché, but I never have seen such a treatment; perhaps it is commonplace in his world, but not in mine.

 

But I'm open-minded and am awaiting a link to the land of photos with similar treatment so abundant that this one deserves to be called a cliché.

 

;~))

 

In any case, it was lots of fun working up, with color, cropping, toning, and lots of other variations, including some substantial contrasting on some versions; not on others, etc. 

 

My life one day was filled just with this and the other three captures (in which her hands were in focus and frustratingly the garlic was not, and finally I settled on THIS as THE PHOTO, happily).

 

Thanks for your endorsement and sharing it with me.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

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Thank you so much.

 

Working on this was a labor of love.

 

Best to you.

 

(Looks great in color too, though different)

  

 

john 

 

 

John (Crosley)

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Most impressive composition (perhaps owing to the crop) and photographic work, Mr Crosley. I must add that I was a heavy cropper when I initially joined PN. Have learnt a lot from you and others on this site. Not to say that I don't crop at all now, just much less frequently and always within standard parameters. I digress... I have only one doubt here - are the cloves too bright... for me at least the hands are the primary interest... I offer another 'view' to you... 

25509582.jpg
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I took in one second (or so) four photos.  

 

In three of them the hands were under the focus point which I had no time to change, so they were in focus.

 

In one -- this one -- the fast-moving garlic was moved under the focus point and so it was 'in focus' and the hands out of focus.

 

At 120 mm even at a relatively smaller aperture of 6.3, and such a small distance between garlic and hands, you'd think it wouldn't make a difference, but it did, and the hands in three of the photos came out pin sharp, but in this they're fuzzy, and needed to be de-emphasized, while in those three, the garlic were such a problem that hours of sharpening, resharpening and resharpening again could not cure.

 

So, when this final shot came before me with pinpoint focus on garlic I had much experience.  Although for this one the garlic was centered, I cropped the right and had the garlic flowing, like from a cornucopia, left to right to the viewer, to add to the idea the garlic was emanating from an unknowable darkness in the background, through somewhat dim hands and there they were in all their brightness.

 

For 'hands' photos, I have three other great photos showing hands, but the garlic cloves are somewhat forced, grainy and not so great looking, and I don't think I'll ever show them after this final coup.

 

I worked almost a day on the four shots (and part of an evening to morning) certain from a series of very dull jpegs and NEFS that I had something potentially great IF ONLY . . . . and in the end, it's being proved at least I had 'something'.

 

Pardon me if the hands are not emphasized here, but now you know why and my 'theory of this photo' (but also the theory of the various others and their treatment).

 

I also toned several of the others.  

 

All are preserved also in color, and they look really good in color; I'll post them on another service which sees a great deal of my color work.  I won't name it here, but you can find it, but won't say when I will post it (or for certain that I will).

 

Your workup was fine, and is in line with what I was doing before I came across this workup; and in fact this workup was a last minute thought from something I thought was the 'final vision' but with some 'contrast adjustment' I said 'VOICI' and that was the end.

 

The brightness of the garlic was to make it seem as though it were jumping toward the viewer from darkness offered by ill-defined but weathered and aged hands in an almost three-dimensional effect.

 

I think I may have come close to success with the brightness, so for me it's a success, not a liability.

 

VOICI!

 

Thanks for another very thoughtful critique.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

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To me, this is a wonderful photograph, in the best tradition of old-school photography. The contrast is very nicely achieved, and both elements have equal importance, one for its brightness and being in the foreground, and the other for its subdued lighting and occupying the background, with a nice empty space on the left, making this an overall well-balanced composition. Very telling, emotional and conveying oh so many stories of these working hands. Superbly done; a powerful statement. Congratulations.

DG

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Those who know my remarks well know that I am in the habit often of 'explaining' my own photos.

 

With a remarkably able explanatory comment like yours, I can remain mute - quiet in the knowledge that you have done so, so well that I can remain silent and know that my side has been thoroughly explained, and done so in a more than workmanlike manner.

 

Thank you so much for writing so ably, with such precise and thorough analysis, and with such economy of words.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

 

P.S.  You may know me as an inveterate experimenter, believing that I 'can do' whatever I set my mind to do (in photography at least) and that this is the first time I have set my task to do such a photo, despite a long career now here at Photo.net.  Plus I never had a lesson, either in photography or in Photoshop/image editing.  I just do what 'looks right' and take the consequences or the accolades, whichever applies.

 

jc

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John; If you read Stephen's bio you will understand from where he is coming. Scroll through landscapes and you will see cliché after cliché. So one could say that your crop and photo shop in order to create drama, which is not in the original, is a cliché. Lots of members also  do this.  Stephen should not have to be a theatre critic in past life to say "cliché". You did write recently that you miss my vinegar comments Just aiming to oblige :-)

 

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You will notice in my request for critique I ask for 'constructive' comments, and what I found strange and interesting about that gentleman's comment was that it was more aimed at making what I felt was a slightly 'snarky' point than in actually aiding me to make a better photograph which is another part of my request.

 

It's fine to criticize and to do so skillfully as he did, but where was the part that says, 'now here's how to take your original (he never saw the flat, unshowable original) and make it into something that's worthy, without being 'excessive'.  In fact, that would have been an impossibility.  If there is an area where my post processing is 'over the top', I would have like to hear about it.  Remember, I am not noted for post processing, and would have liked to hear a specific critique rather than I made an arresting photo but just didn't quite make it and my work bespoke an enthusiastic amateur -- but that's just what I am, though hundreds of millions by my estimation have seen my photos and at one time I was a professional, and missed my shot at a Pulitzer just for no film one series of days long ago.

 

I like it.

 

I like your pithy comments too; your tutelage (such as it is, often buried inside your own snarky comments) has helped me achieve better photos, because in the end you care about seeing me produce better photos as well as stirring the pot.

 

For which I thank you.  And also for the general directions to others works, to which I largely am ignorant.  This is a Crosley original, and if it duplicates others' works, then so be it. 

 

I've got tons of other work that nobody can duplicate, some taken the same day, the same hour within minutes.

 

;~))

 

I'm no one trick pony.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

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"It's fine to criticize and to do so skillfully as he did, but where was the part that says, 'now here's how to take your original (he never saw the flat, unshowable original) and make it into something that's worthy, without being 'excessive'."

 

This is an oft-expressed point of view but it's definitely NOT the only one. I have had several people help me out over the years, even who have acted as mentors to an extent. They have often insightfully criticized my work, also with respect and caring. But rarely have they offered me specific suggestions on what to do differently. That has helped me develop my own voice and maintain my integrity as an individual. It has, in fact, forced me to reach MY OWN solutions.

 

What a good critique can often do is simply get us to look at our work with a different set of eyes. It can plant a seed. It is up to you, as the photographer, to agree or disagree with someone else's point of view on your photo. If you disagree and are very convinced that your own approach was the approach to take, then stand by your work and continue. If, however, someone's criticism (even without a suggestion of what to do about it) rings even partially or slightly true for you, or makes you feel uncomfortable or questioning, then YOU figure out a way to do it differently or tweak it. 

 

There are plenty of critics around who will be happy to offer you suggestions, and would be happy to turn your photo into THEIR vision. That's what most critics on PN do. The better critics plant ideas. Certainly a bit more could always be said by any critic, but one always runs the risk of stepping on the toes of the original photographer. If someone I respect tells me what's not working about a photo of mine, tells me it looks cliché or too processed, I want the creative joy of deciding if there's merit to the criticism and then the further joy of figuring out what MY solution is, not what theirs might be.

 

If this photo has a problem, there will be a million ways to overcome that problem and it should be YOU that figures out where to take it.

 

What I would add, since we seem to be talking about the processing, is that I appreciate your idea of having the garlic jump out at the viewer and think it's a good way to go. I'd just think about ways to make it all feel more organic (or, on the other hand, much more forced). As of now, to me, it seems a bit in a nether world, not seeming organic or "real" enough, yet not forced enough to come across as artistic license in the post processing.

 

That may be, in part, because all the garlic is somewhat equally brightened, so it doesn't feel like it's bright because of a light source or some other natural occurrence. In other words, it FEELS post processed. Often, it is best if the post processing remains less obvious. Sometimes, ironically, a greater amount of post processing is necessary to make it less obvious.

 

There are so many ways you could, if you wanted, make the garlic seem more naturally illuminated and more naturally to stand out. But even that suggestion presupposes a path forward that may not suit you. What if you wanted to really stretch yourself and make it work in a MORE, rather than less, artificial way, making the hands seem very human and the garlic seem not so human, or making it all seem much more like a staged still life rather than a candid moment come across?

 

There are no rules and no one person's vision should be imposed on this image except yours. No one owes you a suggestion on how to fix this. As a matter of fact, you may be owed the opposite: the deference to your own aesthetic vision of being able to work this photo, if you deem the criticism valid, to suit your own values and vision. Only you owe it to yourself to find solutions to problems you may be made aware of through the critiques of others.

 

IMO, of course.

 

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First, I think Educational Testing Service should purloin your 'critique/essay' as the basis for some or another 'test' and base numerous questions on it; it's so well written.

 

Of course, you should copyright it, so they can't do so without paying you for that.

 

You have made numerous, wonderful points, and I won't go into them except to say that they all resonated with me, and you and I actually have little difference.

 

If I KNEW how to make the garlic be more 'organic' even if it required more post processing, I would have done that, but my post processing skills are quite rudimentary, since they're used so very little; what I post generally is what you see and what I took with contrast/brightness/sharpening adjustments to make RAW captures viewable, and I primarily rely on composition and story-telling for the most part in my usual photography.

 

 

This one's different of course, and a venture into something close to 'fine art' though taken on the 'street' and in less than one second.

 

I really appreciate the erudition of your comments -- so well thought out and written.  They are the platinum standard of the Photo.net comment or probably on any forum.

 

You might consider making a side income by writing forwards to photography books . . . . .

 

To a point, I stand by my photo, given the criticism you gave and my further,, future ability to adjust the garlic . . . . as you see I've taken your point and incorporated it into my own feelings.

 

I do learn from critiques, whether by rejecting them or accepting them, all or part, and I generally am VERY, VERY thankful for those who take the time to think their ideas through and leave their thoughts.

 

And, I am especially thankful for your critique, which is in a class of its own.

 

Best wishes.

 

I am indeed a fortunate guy.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

 

 

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Despite all written above post processing, this photo has had very little post processing beyond changes in contrast, sharpness and brightness.

 

The original was flat and evenly exposed, including quite overexposed in the garlic, so it had to be underexposed (more naturally exposed) to suppress the background, the hands had to be selected since they were slightly out of focus, and they were slightly increased in contrast and given somewhat more emphasis than in the original, and the greatest emphasis was given to the garlic which was in places almost blown, so it had to be selected and (1) contrast adjusted, increasing contrast greatly and (2) decreased in its brightness except at the brightest parts.

 

 

In essence, if I had to do this photo over again, I could do it quickly and efficiently over again, now that I have a 'photographic vision, which took hours to develop when I worked on the other three photos in which the garlic was out of focus and the hands were 'in focus'.

 

In the previous photos, I had to use great sharpening and with the result of  consequent noise/grain to make the garlic viewable and not fuzzy, but its presence denigrated each prior photo.  It also helped me develop a 'theory of this photo' (See Fred G.'s critique above).

 

Having a 'theory of the photo' and experience to date greatly increases my ability to redo this photo, if I had to it over again, except of course the light on the garlic to differentiate the cloves, in part because some of the light on the cloves was 'blown' or almost 'blown' leaving me little room to play with.  (Again, see Fred G.'s critique above).

 

For those who would attempt to do such post processing and are afraid.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

 

 

 

 

 

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