'Ideology Aside, They Stopped the Nazis'

Whatever you think of the Soviet Union, now dissolved for over 20

years, and its Communist ideology, Churchill and Roosevelt were

content to let the Russians/Soviets absorb years of horrendous losses

on the Eastern/Russian front in order to weaken the Nazis before the

final invasion; men like this aged officer were one reason Europe did

not stay overrun by the Nazis and this is not still the Third Reich.

Your ratings, critiques and observations are invited and most welcome.

If you rate harshly, very critically, or wish to make a remark,

please submit a helpful and constructive comment. Please share your

photographic knowledge to help improve my photography. Thanks!

Enjoy! john

Hi John! When I see a military man full of medals I always thing about everything, except "brave moments"...maybe it's a wrong judgement, but that's my opinion.We all know how terrible were the world wars (and the nazis) and we must recognize the sacrifice of millions for our benefit...like you did in this photo (in a very good way). I respect this man, but the medals maybe another history...Regards.

I am no Communist sympathizer, but in years of spending time in the former Communist world, I find it all summed up in what Sting of 'The Police' sung.

 

'The Russians Love Their Children Too'.

 

In fact, they love their children and spoil them to death. 

 

If the Americans who suspected the Soviets (Russians?) were going to start World War III, and risk nuclear annihilation, had ever observed Russian fathers and mothers with their children, they would have instantly known the truth.

 

They never would have sacrificed their children's futures, Communist ideology or not.

 

Sting in a rock song had the key to the Cold War, summed up in a lyric.

 

Sometimes simple is better.

 

No one knows if these ribbons are for putting missiles in Cuba or for trying to put Communism in Africa through the Angola conflict, or for helping the Chinese before the Russians and the Chinese Communists split (Sino-Soviet rift), but the Soviet Union/Russia, Ukraine and the Republics, took greater casualties in World War II than any other country or group of countries.

 

They paid the price for stopping Hitler, miring him down in bitter, cold, then in intractable mud, stretching his supply lines thin.

 

Churchill and Roosevelt counted on that great Russian patriotism and the huge death count to run Hitler and his forces to death, exhausting himself with the siege of Moscow and Leningrad, to weaken Hitler's forces, before attempting (a year later than the Russians wished) to assault France for the 'final push'.

 

john

John (Crosley)

Sometimes you just get medals for 'being there' or having power while others did the grunt work, I know.

 

Medals certainly do not tell the story, or all the story.

 

But they sure make an interesting photo, don't they?

 

At least one that's a good spring point for discussion.

 

See my remark above.

 

Good comment.  Thanks.

 

john

John (Crosley)

I've been to the Soviet Union and knowing Russian I could talk to people like this and others who had memories of the the war or who at least knew people were in the war.  Trust me: just "being there" was hell enough.  The Nazis were no only interested in conquering Russia but also in committing genocide.    I have no doubt this man earned every one of his medals.  He probably lost family members and friends.  It is no small feat that he lived to wear those medals.

This is a very good photograph.  Was this a commemoration day of some sort?

I remember a fellow with medals like this my hotel in Odessa.  He was a janitor. When I talked to him he was drunk and talked about killing Germans.

 

This man was an officer and seems to have taken good care of himself.  Could you talk to him somehow, John.

 

When I first began coming to Russia, the Communists were still vying for return to power and every time they gathered, there were legions of such men, younger then as it as a decade and a half ago.

 

They all had seen hell and lived to see their children and children's children.

 

They were relics, however, and so was the Soviet Union.  It was gone forever, and they were fighting for their pensions, mainly, as the Soviets had promised to honor them in their old age with spas, cruises, (really) vacations, and 'to each according to his needs' but instead each was being sent (or his wife was being sent) to the streets, with armloads of clothes to hawk to passersby, sometimes their own clothes, and other times clothes for resale like street vendors.

 

Some were reduced to selling household goods and treasures because of the failures of the Communist system; the ultimate sellout by a sellout ideology.

 

They believed in an unbelievable ideology; Westerners (most of them) instinctively knew, but the slogans were strong and the totalitarian hold also was strong, and it rewarded with Dior gowns the wives of the 'first among equals' (proletarians never saw those truckloads of Dior gowns -- the Soviets were the No. one buyers of Dior in the world, a little known fact, but only party wives and higher saw those gowns . . . a workers' wife never had a chance to do anything but dream while attending a cinema.)

 

War was hell, and the photos from the Eastern front showed it, men frozen in roads, their face in their fatal grimaces in full rigor, as troops retreated before the very disciplined Nazis.

 

But the strategy was (as in Napoleon's day) to stretch out the Nazis and exhaust them over log  supply lines and exhaust them over the brutal winters, and fight, fight, fight through the brutal winter, then bog them down in the long spring mud, which really worked, recording progress platoon full of bodies by platoon full of Russian bodies, til the Russians lost millions more than anyone else (as also in World War II, when the Russians lost more than anyone, a little known fact).

 

But the Soviets (this is a Ukrainian Soviet retiree officer) handed out their outsize medals often just for being there, and while this guy may have been a hero of the Soviet Union during World War II, he may also have been instrumental in putting missiles in Cuba and fighting in Angola or helping arm Gadaffi.

 

I met Gadaffi's driver, who stopped me one day in Odessa, (really) on the mistaken belief, that since he was exposed to world values, that somehow we'd have something in common (he had stopped driving for Gadaffi when the Soviet Union failed and stopped sponsoring the terrorist Gadaffi, one of the many bad marks against the Soviets.

 

I gave him the brush off.  Come to think of it, it may have been in Dnipropetrovsk, if I recall better.  I'll have to think about it; I have a clear memory of the meeting but not the city.

 

He was so proud and hadn't a clue of how awful  Qadaffi had been or how badly I would view Qadaffi; he had  Soviet blinders on still at the time.

 

I've lived in Russia at a time when almost all old men had fought in that terrible war if they were old; one reason I think that the Russian women are so zealous about pursuing their men; there were so few of them left after the Great Patriotic War, that good men who were left were prized and a woman knew to hang on to her good man, even fight for him.

 

Same in Ukraine, I think, with same dynamics, (though much gentler society).

 

Photo taken on VE day when many such men (who are left) dress up suchly.  Alas, there are very few now.

 

Alex, excellent comment.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

In further response about conversations.

 

I have talked with many such men, but not this man.

He was going one way in a suburban area of high rises and trees; I another.

I stopped him, asked him for a photo (or 13;~)), he was pleased then we both moved on quickly.

 

We both knew why and what the stories were, and so from my point of view in view that he had an immediate destination, I did not detain him.

 

I have heard many such stories, including stories from the Battle of Stalingrad, and nearby.

 

Chilling, though the Soviets had their greatcoats, there, the Germans sometimes burned theirs mistakenly thinking they'd be rescued, then froze or were weakened and  could not fight, and the Soviets took almost no prisoners.

 

You wouldn't either, I suspect.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

Maybe I've not expressed myself properly...I already lived and see enough (don't forget that my country was in war in several parts of Africa until 1974 : my generation was the last one to die there) to understand what is a war, any kind of war.

I didn´t express any politic opinion here, I said only that this photo is very expressive and well done but the number of medals don't mean very much to me...I now some big heroes that are unknown and has no medals and I now some full of medals but no heroes at all. Forgive me if it is not the case of this man, I was generalising my opinion...Regards.

An old delusional man with bunch imitation medals is a Diane Arbus kind of photo.

Nothing to forgive.

 

You expressed your point and made it eloquently and maybe correctly.

 

I cannot know if these were battle and/or campaign ribbons or just ribbons and medals for 'being there', somewhere, that never was important, nor likely can anyone else outside the former Soviet military establishment.

 

They're just for show, and make quite a display, but you are correct about heroes and medals.

 

Heroes sometimes get medals, but medals don't make the hero.

 

Good point, well made.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

You have assumed a second Photo.net identity, Meir, as I have said and accused you over years by using the pseudonymous account, Asher Lev and in doing so rated this photo.

 

That denigrates from your off-hand comment above, and detracts considerably from what otherwise might have been a refreshing point of view.

 

Can't you get it straight who you are, or must you remain Photo.net's dual personality with dual accounts?

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

I'm not blowing smoke, either, I've made this complaint for three, four or more years now, ever since the Asher Lev account came on the scene and made remarks when I refused to reply to yours for your own misconduct.  Somehow you have made Asher Lev your doeppelganger  . . . . it appears clear to me . . . . and unrefuted by you despite many accusations.

 

jc

"Ideology Aside, They stopped the Nazis'", and whether or not this man's campaign medals are genuine; this photo is a fitting tribute to the men and women who fought for the Soviet Union in WWII. Great photo, John. It would never have occurred to me to shoot his portrait from this angle...I guess that's one of the components that make good photography.

1. Why did you choose to shoot this in colour?

2. The angle of the shot; was it to highlight his 'towering' achievement (the way you saw it)? And what made you crop out the top?

I did reply to your mail in this site (though a couple of days late) and then copy/pasted the same to your email address; have you not accessed them yet?

Regards.

Those who did indeed forestall the Nazis paid with their lives, those of their children, their relatives and their lifestyle -- their entire beings, BUT unless we know something about these medals we don't know if this particular man fought in any World War II campaign or not (or fought and got no medals but got them later for other reasons or other campaigns.

 

We can assume, but we don't know for sure, since he was in a hurry, we didn't speak and there were language barriers anyway.

 

As to the angle of taking, I am quite sure, if you went to take this photo, using nothing more than a 'kit' lens, you would have grown frustrated at trying to include the medals, the man, his hat and face, and the uniform from a face-on standing view, knowing that the medals were the photo supplemented by his handsome face.

 

So, I can suggest, that in frustration, if you recognized that the medals and the man were the photo, you would have looked for a way with that lens which was available to highlight both, and in this case, the only available answer was to crouch (kneel, oh my aching knee and bones!) to include the medals as the subject, but getting this tall man's presence (and his Russian and/or Ukrainian good looks besides) towering over the photographer to catch the entire story in one frame.

 

That's the essence, to capture everything in one frame and to think on your feet.

 

Looked at beforehand, I probably never would have thought of this angle either, but put a camera in my hand and frustration at capturing what I want with less than a very wide angle lens in my hands and you'd know why I was crouching; you'd have been crouching instinctively too, I venture.

 

Don't sell yourself and your instincts short . . . . what it takes more is the chutzpah to get down on knees while a total stranger just met waits towering over you while you make adjustments to take that photo and know with certainty you can do the photo justice, AND convey that certainty to the subject so he does not just walk away.

 

That's the real trick.

 

Thanks so much for the kind comment.

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

Welcome back, (and congratulations, on what I understand may be a new family addition).

 

You have been sorely missed in these comments.  Your incisive view expressed so well always has been refreshing, and your viewpoint always stated so well.

 

I chose to display this photo in color because it was stronger in color than desaturated.  In digital, I shoot everything in color, so I don't choose to shoot in color or black and white, but shoot always in color, but may show some photos as

1.  Black and white when the subject matter is conducive;

 

2.  Black and white an/or color depending on emphasis and/or what I feel should be posted next, a color or a black and white shot.

 

This happens when a shot is equally strong as a color or black and white shot.  The choice often is the result of whim, momentary feelings, or possibly when I worked it up originally, I worked it up only in color or black and white or both (I do all three).

 

3.  Some photos are entirely color dependent or are much stronger in color than black and white; this is strong in black and white, but much stronger in color.  Notice the green tree canopy overhead and how its colors repeat the forest green of his uniform.

 

That would be lost in a black and white version as would the wonderful green of his uniform which seems to tie the photo together. 

 

As to taking if from this angle, that was more necessity than emphasizing his 'towering presence' though that was fortuitous.  I wanted to include the medals and the face, but had a maximum 18 mm wide angle 'kit' lens available, and that allowed me at that closeness to emphasize detail in the medals but  only to get so close before I had to change angle of view from head on to something else.

 

I couldn't get overhead, and that would diminish his stature which would have been counter intuitive, so I crouched and got him from below, which did emphasize his size and show him as 'towering'.

 

As to cutting off his 'hat' that is an idiosyncrasy of mine made more necessary because my lens just wasn't wide enough to be as close as I wanted and still include the hat. 

 

If it had a few more millimeters in width, I might have included the hat too, though at Mr. Shishin remarked long, long ago, I often trim the tops of heads, which long ago confounded him (but only on close-in shots, not in far-off shots, I noted in response).

 

*********

 

Samrat I apologize for not returning your letter or note response; that drama is still unfolding, but I am halfway through the journey and see my doctor tomorrow for the final news. 

 

It has cost dearly but it is a cost that friends have helped me undertake . . . . and with great thanks to them. 

 

You are a friend of long standing and I would not want ever to impose on that friendship for any reason . . . . . and world economics being what they are, am especially careful to be sensitive to such issues.

 

I do have a second opinion, however, that seems far more 'optimistic' so I am hopeful.

 

(also, juice got spilled on my laptop keyboard, so many keys did not work; I couldn't unlock it or use the keyboard, and finally am able to use the laptop (from an airport food court) using an outboard USB keyboard, accounting for the delay in response.

I hope you understand the difficulties after 22 hours in the air and very long worried periods before then wondering how to get (t)here.

 

The world seems to be perched (at least for Europe and probably the rest of the West and may be even China) on the edge of a world historical moment, with economies set to falter, the Euro perhaps to disappear, and perhaps a second dip of the last recession.

 

I am only too mindful of all that (and of the housing boom that wealthy Spaniards, Italians and Greeks are causing in the Kensington and other tony areas of London, unlike the rest of your find city (and country) which is somewhat more down on its luck right now, but less so than Europe.

 

Will the Euro crisis drag under the world's economics?

 

Personally, I think it may; and hope it will not, but I'm not optimistic, and in any regard I'm a believer that the economics of 'austerity' will not work and a believer in Keynesianism. 

 

John Maynard did not have it wrong when he said that prosperity was the time to make cuts not times of hardship since we are all our neighbors' customers and to stop buying for them means they stop buying from us.

 

More spending (not less as austerity folks would tell us) means more wealth from a bigger pot).

 

Austerity and a smaller pot means a smaller pot and real human suffering.

 

You surely see it professionally, no doubt when economics get bad.

 

Samrat, you have a heart of gold, but I also am very chary of trespassing on that heart.

 

Your and your family needs come first.

 

I am honored by your response(s).

 

Wish me luck.  I feel luck is on my side, today.

 

john

John (Crosley)

The Order of Victory which he wears was the highest military decoration in the Soviet Armed Forces for WW2 services and one of the rarest in the world due to the small number of recipients. Only 20 were awarded!  Made of platinum, rubies and diamonds the intristic value alone is considerable (wikipedia). We can be sure that an athentic copy of this was not purchased Ebay. We all have our dreams don't we?

athentic copy! re; above. Tha't an oxymoron isn't it.

That piece of information gives this photo some historical authenticity, as this wearer almost certainly can be identified if only 20 of such medals ever were awarded and he is the recipient . . . which I feel he is.

I am almost choked because I feel that such a medal only would have been awarded for heroic service against the Nazis, the earth's scourge, and everyone's enemy, and in humanity's service during World War II.

I am now very proud that I met this man and sorry I did not talk to him and elicit a story; his medals seemed to speak for themselves.

What you have done with my photo is an excellent example of the effectiveness of the newly coined term of crowdsourcing . . . not for money but for information.

Congratulations, your research, however you came by it, has won the day!

And almost certainly this guy hasn't an inkling what E-Bay is.

Probably never has even seen or sent an e-mail, if my intuition is correct, unless he saw a granchild or child send or receive one, but himself - never!

Thank you so much Meir for such informative, interesting and comeplling information.

I am most grateful.

Sincerely,

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

Authentic copy means 'copy' and is redundant, since a real copy will be authentic, or the term'authentic' really has no meaning at all. . . .  it modifies the term 'copy' not the original item pursuant to rules of English grammatical construction.

 

It is not an oxymoron, since any copy can be said legitimately to be 'authentic'; it is not necessarily contradiction in terms like 'GIANT SHRIMP' though at first blush it may falsely appear so.

 

If the term were 'authorized' this discussion might have a different conclusion. and the confusion between the two terms is at the heart of the matter.

 

Follow that?

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

Sorry about the confusion. There is only one Order of Victory Medal in private hands. It was sold to a Japanese collector for $2,000,000. In 1948 the intrinsic value of the medal was $5,841 (3750 British lbs).  Awardees include Generals Eisenhower and Montgomery and Stalin twice. The sole surviving recipient is Michael I King of Romania -wikipedia. 

Somewhere, I am not sure where, you said you think this guy wears a special medal of which only 20 are in existence, the last of which was sold brought $2,000,000 at sale in part because of rare metal and jewels in the making.

 

Now you say it ain't so.

 

Is it possible that the design of the expensive piece awarded to Eisenhower, et al., was a takeoff on a more common design of which this man also has an 'original' and not a 'knockoff', and that theirs is distinguished by expensive metals and jewels while his is just more pedestrian but looks the same or similar and is a derivative of his medal?

 

It's also more to the Soviet way of presenting itself to award one metal to the more ordinary heroes and to the world historical figures to award medals based similar to those awarded the proletariat but with the derivatives much more expensive due to the recipients' high stations, I suggest.

 

In other words, in a system that blared the worker was 'equal' (in theory at least) why not have awarded its hero soldiers a bravery medal then made a special version for Allies who helped win the war by sending arms, material, ships, men, then joining 100% in the war effort to defeat the common enemy, Nazism and Hitler?

 

That would seem a more likely explanation than that this older man bought a fake medal and added it to a collection for his handsome uniform to parade around only on VE Day anniversary, don't you think?

 

Initially, you seemed to indicate this was the ''real McGillah' then backed off on that, and my suggestions splits the difference in what I think is an entirely reasonable way. 

 

What do you make of that, as I'm not usually a compromisor unless it represents my exposure to the human experience, and my explanation above, suggests exactly that?

 

I await your response. (truly)

 

john

 

John (Crosley)

John; I sent you email of clarification and also in a subsequent comment above I apologized for the confusion. You took "which he wears" out of context. Put in context with platinum, rubies, diamonds, 20 awarded, considerable intrinsic value and later $2,000,000, it is obvious that he is not wearing the "real mccoy".

(1) That the expensive medallion is a "special version" of the common design, i.e. an embellishment of the original -that did not happen. Review the history of the design. I also wrote that there remains only one living recipient of the "Order of Victory" who is Michael I of Romania (wikipedia). Your man looks very much alive.

(2)  So your compromise assumption is unsupported.

(3) I searched through all of the soviet medals, military and civil and found nothing that resembles the "Order of Victory" medalion.

(4) If your character was just wearing a bunch of medals that is one matter. But if among them is a fake "Order of Victory" then I am inclined to believe that all or some were purchased (real or fake) and we are back to my original which is that we have here a Diane Arbus genre.

Hope that clarifies the confusion.

The methodology you have used, though once conveyed very darkly, now appears more clear.

 

However, if any one step proves unfounded, then the whole architecture is unsupported.

 

It once was possible to buy any and all sorts of GENUINE Soviet medals at bazaars in Moscow a decade and a half ago, but I am unaware in a market in fakes; there were just so many good original ones.

 

If his 'Order of Victory' medal lookalike (I am unsure which one) does prove to be fake, then who knows about the rest, and then the question becomes 'one medal or more than one?" and then Diane Arbus or just a guy adorning his credentials and 'stealing a little valor?' which now in the U.S. is illegal.

 

We've finally got to something we can agree on through working on our clarity and the result pleases me that we agree on the methodology whether or not we know the truth about this guy (or ever will, as I'm unlikely ever to bump into him and be able to ask him about the authenticity of that certain medal which I presently cannot identify or be certain I'll get a straight answer, and he's very old, lessening the chances of a future encounter.

 

Thanks for an interesting exchange.

 

john

John (Crosley)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kuznetsov, the designer proposed a medallion with portraits of Lenin Stalin. Stalin however wanted a design with the Spasskaya Tower in the center. Kuznetsov returned 4 days later with several new sketches and Stalin choose the sketch titled "victory'. The order was officially adopted in 1943 -wikipedia.