'The Strong Disagreement'

I heard a loud voice, the man at right was talking loudly and

gesticulating,so I went to photograph him and his arm movements in

front of a small group. Soon the man, left, grabbed him right in

front of me,and made remarks I understood to mean the man, left, was

MORE patriotic than the man, right who was expounding on his

patriotism. Your ratings, critiques and observations are invited and

most welcome. If you rate harshly, very critically or wish to make a

remark, please submit a helpful and constructive comment; please share

your photographic knowledge to help improve my photography. Thanks!

Enjoy! john

With just a little faster speed this would have been great. As it is, your focus is off.

Jennifer, thanks for the comment.

This was dusk and the ISO was maximum at 2500 -- anything more and there would be substantial artifacting with this camera.

The blur is from subject motion; one guy is pulling/pushing the other crosswise to the camera at a relatively slow shutter speed.  Focus is fine, IF they were still, but who can anticipate such an event?  I was figuring on still figures, not a fight.

I agree, it would have been great.

I have hard drives full of 'would have been greats' but this still tells a passable story, I think.

Best wishes.

john

John (Crosley)

 

Was difficult condition and not to much time to think what to do more and better,but the image is full of tension and look at the man in bg his face is ten points regard to this situation,not sure if the left man wasn't angry seeing you shooting this scene,cheers!

First off, I like your point-of-view. Sometimes, in a world of tall men, it is an advantage to be short (I'm not tall either). The looming shot serves well to enhance his aggression. The look frozen on the face of the victim, even in profile, is quite telling. Astonishment, even perhaps fear. I suspect his hands were by his sides... The smiling gentleman could be amused by the 'fight' or by your prompt action in documenting it. His presence somewhat lessens the dramatic impact of this scene but can't be helped. They do seem to have a thing about numbering in Ukraine... 21. Intriguing that one arrow points down, the other up...

John I don't mind the focus, it's whitin your style.

What makes this a great photo is the man in the middle.

Again well seen and well done.

Amazingly, I stood there and was standing there before this sudden outbreak taking a few photos, the man approached and grabbed, said a few words, the other fellow shoved him away, and it was though I was wearing a science fiction 'cloaking device'.

NO ONE SEEMED TO EVEN REALIZE I WAS THERE AND RECORDING THE WHOLE THING PHOOGRAPHICALLY.

I'm going to have to check the settings on my 'cloaking device' -- maybe patent it and try to sell it to the US Navy Seals and other Defense Department entities!

I just fired away a few shots and it was over.  No one said or did anything to or about yours truly -- I felt truly invisible.

;~))

john

John (Crosley)

John

I like the blurring, it gives a still image movement and adds to the emotion of the situation you describe.

Well done for being in the right place at the right time with the right frame of mind to take the right composition .... right ....

Hope all is well, regards

Doug

Sometimes the photo gods smile, and they put that guy in the background when the left guy grabbed the man, right, who then contorted his face agreeably.

Yes, focus is important, and if it had been an f11 day, so much the better, but I GOT IT.  It's probably a singular photo on all of Photo.net.

Thanks for the encouragement.

john

John (Crosley)

I'm not a short or small man.  I'm nearly 5-11' tall and big. 

However, men in Ukraine, especially laborers and workmen, can be exceptionally large.  Ukraine is a land of very large men and quite small, thin women (at least in younger years.)  Common men come sometimes with pretty amazing musculature and mass, and not from the gym or spa workouts, either.

Sometimes, when taking photos, I can bob, duck and weave like a boxer, especially in circumstances like this, though I can't recall doing so here.   However I may have done so unconsciously.  My true height may have been disguised.

These, however, were beefy men, and older.

(not so old as I, however, by a long shot, helping to protect me)

The numbers on the overhead sign are either for the post office or an Internet office next door, FYI. -- just a business opening hours sign.  This is in front of the main post office for all of Kyiv, a gathering point.

I was attracted while I walked with a fellow (and scary) American, who kept talking about bullets and killing people, and I was happy to say 'goodbye' to him.

This circumstance actually seemed safer, and the American and I parted company at this scene.

My best to you Rajat, with kind thanks.

john

John (Crosley)

 

 

As you may have read above, somehow, I seemed to be wearing my science fiction 'cloaking device' and no one saw me; I was seemingly 'invisible', unnoticed by these men.

All was right.

Who would have guessed with such testosterone flying that I might not also have been a target, but I wasn't; I was just ignored completely, by both.

Life's wonderful sometimes.

And unexpected, too.

Thanks, Doug.

john

John (Crosley)

It was planned to take a photo of one guy, then the other, more aggressive guy, showed up and the rest is here.

I took three of four shots in all, but this is the best.

john

John (Crosley)

addendum:  focus may have been somewhat better in later shots, but this is better for action, and in my view action here (mouth open, tight grip) trumps focus.

jc

I just was standing there, taking photos of one man, the other came, did his assault, then it all stopped, I walked away and nobody noted my existence.

I was like a ghost, I think.

That I think is stunning.  That was the epitome of 'street skill' -- to become ultimately 'invisible' to the actors.

;~))

Thanks for the fine compliment.

john

John (Crosley)

Dear John,

I see you have full of comments. This kind of photos are not common in PN and we enjoy with everything that is new or, at least, some innovative, in this case an image with some "violence".

I believe if you say it´s a real scene at street, that is supported by the face expression of man on the right that seems some impressed. But: the position of the hand is not very agressive, so does not add too much tension to the "disagreement" scene. The face of the man on the left is a little "cold", if he would be anxious to kick or hurt the other man, his face expression would be much agressive or his mouth would be very open or showing teeth (you know, like wolves surrounded by men with rifles).

And, of course, that man in the middle of the scene smiling... he seems to be looking at a street theatre scene or... do not know, perhaps he is not very smart.

I do not see a "violent" image, and I do not see two angry men in a strong disagreement;...sorry for that. Do not know exactly what was the fail, perhaps the timing of the image. Ikusi arte - see you. Josemi Gondra

 

 

Hi,

When I joined Photo.net eight or so years ago, there were many wonderful photos and many wonderful photographers, but as far as sharing secrets to how those wonderful photos came about, everybody was 'mum'.

Not a word was spoken.

Two things stood out about the membership.  There were mate-rating cliques -- if you rate my photo high, I'll rate yours high, and 'I'll keep secret my techniques for creating wonderful photos.'

Another was (with one exception), no colloquy in member comments.

I vowed to break them all.

I refused to rate others photos, which continues to this day.  If you rate my photo, I won't rate yours, or anyone else's so no one can accuse me of mate-rating. Each and every rate I've received, therefore, has been given without favor given or expected.  That still is not true of every photographer o this site, whose rates are well known from the times when rates were well known and not anonymous, and those photographers get exceptional treatment from those who get rated by them. 

I remember one famous commercial photographer who promised to post a photo of his studio for photographing automobiles, but posted it in such small size that no detail could be made out.  That was the level of secrecy that then was carried on here.

Still there are many photographers who keep their secrets, but mostly because no one cares to ask.

I share almost all.

I started out with no views and no one knew me from Adam; I joined a critic's roving critique group for a while, and we left critiques on lessor-known but good works, but no rates -- it was great fun and practice (I think it was sponsored by the then administration, in secret, but that also was secret, and no one to this day has told me officially who sponsored that critique group.)

Now rates are semi-anonymous and mate-rating has mostly gone.  There is some, but not much.

But I adopted the habit of member Loft Portugal of acknowledging each member who left a comment, and soon enough it proved extraordinarily popular.  There were detractors, but they were outnumbered by supporters nine to one.

As I pointed out, those who didn't like to read, didn't have to.

Reading and comments attracted especially a certain well-educated crowd, too, so many of my best supporters are quite literate, which is somewhat rare among photographers, a notably less literate set.

Here, the man, right, was expounding on something about his patriotism (I heard the word).  He was speaking loudly and gesticulating and apparently irritating people, including the smiling man, rear, as well as the man who is grabbing his lapel.

The man who grabbed his lapel did not mean to punch him, only to 'set him straight' that the man, right, did not have a 'lock' on being patriotic to Ukraine and to make that point so in a forceful and unforgettable way, then allowed his grip to be shoved away, and the leftmost man simply walked away.

This whole episode was over in  three or so seconds, and four frames, no more.

But it makes for a good set of frames, and catches a good moment in human history -- the patriot, right, being accosted for pronouncing to another, left, his patriotism was better than anybody else's and being called to task for that.

It's a super short story.

I hope you enjoy my manner of presentation; you can look at the photos only, or enjoy the comments if you wish, but only if you wish.

My best to you.

john

John (Crosley)

 

I need to borrow your cloaking device.

Ahhhhh,

You do read the comments.

Of course, it's a figure pf speed.

But you knew that.

Best wishes.

john

John (Crosley)

I did once have a genuine cloaking device.

It was the devil to find.

Once it was put away, it 'cloaked' its container.

;~)

john

John (Crosley)

I read the comments when I am very interested in the image and its background; this is not the case. Thanks anyway for your phylosophy response. I come to PN to enjoy, sometimes 10 seconds or sometimes 3 hours, it depends. Ikusi arte, agur. See you, bye in basque language. Josemi Gondra

Your English leaves me a bit befuddled, and although I spent time with Basques in the United States, I learned no Basque other than an appreciation of Basque cuisine -- the family style table.

Go in peace, and enjoy what you will.

john

John (Crosley)

Emotional scene! But I do not think that the threat is in this scene.

When a man grabs my lapel hard, that's a threat.

However, you may be writing of the underlying politics.

I'll let you explain that to me in person.

Best wishes.

john

John (Crosley)

This photo was taken in front of Kyiv's Main Post Office which fronts onto Independence Square, heart of the political uprising that gave rise to the now-failed but once successful 'Orange Revolution' and the scene always of a few people willing to 'talk politics' -- although increasingly fewer and fewer such people.

Life's hard, and there is precious little fomenting going on that I see.  (I take no sides; never have, except the side of taking photographs.)

Whenever anything political happens in Ukraine, it is likely to be centered in Independence Square unless it involves something happening in a government building, such as the nation's highest court or its Parliament (Radu), etc., as Independence Square is a park (and beneath it is a huge, modern shopping center, insulated from the elements, much like the shopping center (on a smaller scale) that Russians built just outside the gates to the Kremlin).  High prices, and western standards prevail there in everything, including guards who say 'no photos' just like in the west.

Thankfully for richness in photography, Kyiv has a bazaar and/or a large number of kiosks and shops at nearly every Metro stop, and nearly all are owned or run by mom and pop entrepreneurs - a great many from the countryside (many not highly educated, judging from experience, but not all, of course, as there is a 'radio bazaar', which caters to computers users/buyers and such, and a book and education bazaar, etc., and make no mistake, Ukraine (and neighboring Russia) boast a huge number and population percentage of higher education graduates.

john

John (Crosley)

Ukraine's Parliament is officially known as the Verkhovna Rada (not Radu) as stated above erroneously.

It is a unicameral legislative body,and in English would be known as the Supreme Council of Ukraine.

This clarifies the mistake, above. 

This is NOT taken in front of the 'rada', and the 'rada' is rather isolated from the main center physically - whereas Independence Square is a main gathering point, the heart of the capitol and the election that overthrew the first post-Soviet government that ran Ukraine after the fall of the  Soviet Union (now taken over by opponents of the 'Orange Revolution', as that 'revolution' was called, as the 'Orange Revolution' became enmired in stalemated internal politics and it allegedly was corrupt. 

One of its two leaders currently is in Ukrainian prison under contested circumstance relating to past allegations of corruption - again contested.

I don't take sides or pretend to know the truth in this opaque nation's politics, or wish to.

The last presidential election, as opposed to the one prior to the one which the Orange Revolution prevailed' was seen as widely untainted by fraud and electoral manipulation -- in other words, the Ukrainians are getting the government they voted for this time (same with the Orange Revolution leaders, which they later threw out after voting them in.)

I do not trouble myself much with watching Ukrainian television or reading local newspapers -- I take photographs and limit my political involvement just to knowing who's who and precious little of that, really.

I try to limit myself to knowing just enough to know when to keep my head ducked and also to know when to press the shutter when two men start pushing each others' buttons, as above.

john

John (Crosley)

(If this were the USA, I would be VERY MUCH involved; I'm not involved at all in Ukrainian politics, but care profoundly about American politics).

jc

Great picture, John. I'm not at all surprised that an arguement over who is the more patriotic seems to have led these men to the brink of violence.