'After the Street Party'

Former Soviet missile making city Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine now is

justly famous for its hard rock street parties, none of which is complete

until the partiers have broken all their beer bottles, which promptly are

swept up by an army of women with long brooms afterward. Here one

party goer ponders her options after the witching hour. Your ratings and

critiques are invited and most welcome. If you rate harshly or very

critically, please submit a helpful and constructive comment; please

share your photographic knowledge to help improve my photography.

Thanks! Enjoy! John

Cutting her body off at the waist looks very akward to me.

This is supposed to be an awkward looking stance.  Look at her feet; they're pigeon-toed -- very awkward to walk that way, but in a way very vulnerable and to some men very sexually appealing.  Models often are taught to pose pigeon-toed to look 'vulnerable'. 

This whole photo practically screams 'awkward' and 'what do I do?' with the glass around and the pigeon-toed, knock-kneed stance. 

I didn't capture the shards, but there also was plenty of broken beer bottle glass there, too.  Not a good place to fall on knees or hands.

If you would crop, where would you do so, if you were trying to portray legs, knock knees, a small rear end with micro-mini-shorts and quite thin legs (not the usual USA version of legs, but fairly common in Ukraine)?

I think you 'saw' the point of the photo but somehow intellectually it didn't click. 

However, I'm open to a response.

john

John (Crosley)

This photograph tells an entire story.  Can anybody tell the story to me?

Really, all the elements of a story are within this photograph, plus some hints in the comment above.

It's quite a detailed story, but can be summed up rather concisely.

Anybody care to make a stab?

john

John (Crosley)

John, this is fantastic.  To use the ole cliche' that a photo is worth a thousand words, fits this perfectly.  It was a long night, the partying and gathering was intense and wild.  The angled feet fulfill the mood with energy and style.  Fine work John.  Thanks for the inspiration in regards to great story telling with photos.  Best regards, Doug.

Siempre genial.

Saludos.

Thanks for taking me up on my invitation, above, to attempt to 'tell the story' which you have done admirably in terms of 'that night' but there's lots more to this story which any denizen of Dnipropetrovsk, Ukraine or any of the hundreds of smaller towns or even some of its larger cities can tell you if they examine this photo AND are aware that it ALSO in addition to Bering a photo of a particular person in a particular night is emblematic of an entire society and particular persons' places in that society.

In fact, this a pigeon-toed, knock-kneed, spindly-legged, with bows on the ankle straps wrapped around super thin ankles story of the entire Ukrainian culture in microcosm, is in this photo just waiting  for an explanation.

Even partial explanations are most welcome or just observations, about that night, about the girl, about her condition, (I won't give any more hints- just read other things I've read or look real carefully at the photo), Ukrainian and/or Slavic society in general, the text of my comment and the Request for Critique, and you're a good way there.

Really, this truly is not only a story of a night but of an entire society.

And the society is not just Ukraine, but also neighboring Russia, of which the Ukrainians absorbed a great number of expatriates during the 30s when there was famine in both countries and Stalin started pushing more and more Russians into famine-ravaged Ukrainian in a historically debated social movement that the Ukrainians insist was a 'holocaust' but which the Russians say was only a 'population movement'.

Nonetheless, the major language in much of Ukraine is  Russian, as a result partly of the Soviet influence but because of independence last I heard school was being taught in Ukrainian.

Families even today are split with sometimes one child speaking Ukrainian; the other Russian primarily, in dual language households.

But language aside, the girls legs, the street, her physique, the beer bottle detritus, all tell a story, and that story is part of a story of modern-day Ukrainian society, from a sociological perspective (not an economic one necessarily, as this was taken BEFORE the present economic crisis, but you would be hard pressed to 'see' the effects of the crisis in everyday life.

There's a bone; now go chew on it.

Doug, you did a good job, now let's see who can take it further, if anyone.

john

John (Crosley)

p.s. (and Thanks Doug so much)

jc

Oh and for ex-American school students:  'Pop Quiz in one hour!

;~))

Thanks for a simple and congratulatory comment.

Saludos in return.

juan

John (Crosley)

My short, meek uncle was in World War II in the Air Force, and these days at least, the Air Force is really the Man's Service, and its pilots at least are GIANTS of charisma.

My uncle was a meek and quiet guy, though a very quick, sound and deep thinker.

He never saw true overseas service in World War II and never had to worry; he never would be shipped overseas and he and his newly-wed wife knew it.  They were happily living out the war as a wartime couple near Denver.

Why?

He was involved in Photo interpretation.  He knew too much about the successes and failure of Allied bombing ever to have the Armed Forces of any Allied country let him be captured and 'sill the beans' about the accuracy of Allied strategic bombing as well as the secret nordon bomb sight, the accuracy of which was a well-guarded secret of the US and Britain. 

In short, he gained his value because he was highly skilled in reading the photos that came back from the German and Japanese fronts (and Italian so long as Italy was in the fight).  Photos are not like books with covers, chapter headings, capitalized nouns and sentence beginnings, all organized into neat paragraphs and chapters, but often are a jumble.

He knew somewhat how to make sense of that jumble.

He was able (or so they thought before Albert Speer came along to prove otherwise), what devastation the US, British, and other Allied 'strategic bombing' had on any particular night over any particular target, and thus, since civilian centers of production were being targeted through much of the war, supposedly how much the German armaments war machine was being crippled,. 

Troop and matériel movement also were analyzed as were transportation arteries, such as the Autobahn, secondary roads, and rail lines, plus as reconstruction efforts.

(Little did they know, but evil genius and Hitler's right hand man for production, Albert Speer, using slave labor and concentration camp slaves as well as others -- he claimed falsely he didn't know --  simply moved most of production underground where it largely was untouched and thus German housewives almost never worked throughout the entire war, unlike American and British housewives who toiled away in factories building aircraft,, flying them, tanks, ships, and in general supporting the war effort.

So, there was my Uncle, safely ensconced at some Air Force base near Denver, leading a pretty good life, knowing he never would come under armed fire, spending his days 'reading' photos'.

He imbued in me the idea that through clues a photo could be 'read' -- although I learned that also from the movie 'Blow-Up' which I dearly loved, a 1966 Oscar winning and mu ti-nominated film, the first by director Michaelangelo Antonioni -- a standout and seminal film.

Here in summary is the IMDb synopsis © IMDb.com and used here as 'fair comment' -- see IMDb.com for facts about the movie, its Oscars, etc.

********'

'A successful mod photographer in London whose world is bounded by fashion, pop music, marijuana, and easy sex, feels his life is boring and despairing. But in the course of a single day he accidentally captures on film the commission of a murder. The fact that he has photographed a murder does not occur to him until he studies and then blows up his negatives, uncovering details, blowing up smaller and smaller elements, and finally putting the puzzle together'

comment © IMDb.com and reprinted here as 'fair comment'.

********

Photo interpretation does have a very long history; photos from World War I (The World War so far then as anyone then knew) were taken and relayed to the ground for reading by generals before anyone thought to actually put a gun or a bomb on a plane - same for balloons before them, though balloons easily were shot down, or course, especially if they were full of explosive hydrogen gas!

So, your task, if anyone cares to undertake it, is to try to photo interpret the above photo beyond what Doug Gentry has done above, using all the clues present in the photo, my own comments here re this photo, my comments elsewhere (which may be VERY helpful), any knowledge not only about Ukrainian culture, but also about Russian or other Slavic cultures, and see if you can put together a story of what this girl/woman is doing standing here, what she is thinking, why she is there, and tell us what she probably is thinking, and what drives her.

Tall task; I think so for some;for others it may not be so hard.

It really is possible through photo interpretation to do with some semblance of accuracy all of the above, I swear.

No one can ever know with 100 per cent accuracy what really is gong on in this young woman's mind.  Maybe she's doing differential equations while fighting off menstrual cramps, and thinking of a future leading Antarctic expeditions for Greenpeace.

If you think so, please let me know and more importantly tell me the evidence which brings you to that or those conclusion(s).

It's the evidence and its relationship to the conclusions you draw that may be most helpful if you decide to dabble in this possibly fun exercise.

(I know the answer(s)  and if there are more takers [any former or present Slavs out there who thin they can guess at the answer(s)]?, and so I may drop one or more hints if things progress.

Like 'you're getting warmer', or 'you're getting colder'  ;~)))

john

John (Crosley)

(I swear it's really possible, and since I really only just this minute have a recollection of having taken this photo three years ago, having posted it here yesterday without present recollection of its taking when I posted it.  I can now tell you I knew at posting 'the entire story' without knowing any more than the existence of this intriguing and telling photo - in fact no more than you see before you.  I now do recall taking it, and where I was standing, etc., but then I didn't but still I knew the story when I posted it.)

jc

Thanks!

john

John (Crosley)

After a couple of hours, an area for this rock concert, the size of several football fields, (world football or American football), all covered mostly with broken bottles and tons of trash, was sweeped clean (as after every rock concert) by a small army of women cleaners with long brooms, each with European-style broom corns of varying length, and lots and lots of sweeping, aided in some cases by mechanical aids.

Whereas in America, and maybe in Europe, one machine or two, such as a 'parking lot sweeper' might have been brought in these women were super at cleaning up, never voiced a disagreement, and worked industriously right up until every possible shard of class and trash was swept up.

The next day you could walk in this center square, where Karl Marks Street gets wide and becomes part parking lot, with bare feet and not run much of a risk of getting a glass cut.

As unlikely as that may seem, it's true.  It's not hi-tech, but it's very thorough and very efficient.

john

John (Crosley)

I think someone needs to open a forum thread if he feels like lecturing and sharing opinions on viewing and critiqueing images. When someone posts an image here I understand he needs to clarify to himself if indeed its a good image and if not, why.

Doing it the other way around (posting a picture and then giving lengthy explanations on how to view it) is odd.

More to the topic, i like the atmosphere, the legs, the way they express vulenrability but I too find the cut to the waist odd. Also the man on the left is too to the left for me.

John, I'm digesting the visual feast........  ;-)

Christian,

The Forum Threads do not have a monopoly on discussion and generally are more universal or dedicated to a topic.  You have suggested that the suggested topic is, say, dedicated to photo interpretation.

While it relates to this photo, yes, but the topic is THIS PHOTO, which is not an appropriate subject for a forum post, since the discussion would be limited to this photo and its sociological impact or reflection of Ukrainian/Slavic culture and not photo interpretation in general.

Again, the cutting off at the waist was entirely intentional, designed to place the focus of this photo, entirely on the lower portion of the body - the legs and micro butt -- because they are most revealing, if one follows the 'story' to the end.

Perhaps if the story gets told, and you come back in a month (if no one bites, perhaps I'll tell it) you'll see why I did so.

As to the other fellow, he adds context, it's somewhat random and that's 'street' -- it's hard to critique the presence of such randomness in 'street', as 'street' is entirely unpredictable in such ways compared to landscapes or studio.   However the presence of 'other legs' does give an indicator of scale and depth, which is helpful in analysis of her size and the dimensions of her surroundings.

john

John (Crosley)

And, Doug, with what's depicted, in the way it's depicted, and with all the extraneous evidence I've published over time, there's a feast of evidence to sup on.

Let me know if you want to take your fine analysis a step further.

Interesting challenge, eh?

john

John (Crosley)

Hi John.  I like the shot, and will attempt to tell you what I see as the story.  I see a young girl whose attire reminds me of a prostitute.  Maybe she is looking for a trick, and is the kind of working girl who has a hard time getting tricks, and is seeking the remnants of guys that could be hanging around.  Her physique suggests that she could have an eating disorder, or possible a drug dependence problem.  The timing of the shot and her stance suggest she could be high or drunk, at the minimum unstable or unbalanced.  So this could be a reflection of Ukraine society at that moment in time.  A kind of symbolism.  This is what comes to my mind.  Cheers.

Paul

I can never say 'you're wrong' because you have written me your subjective opinion of this photo e.g., what YOU see in it.

If you ever saw the knock-kneed, spindly-legged, high-heeled, beribboned Jodie Foster playing the nubile prostitute in the iconic film 'Taxi Driver' that seems be the depiction you see in this photo.

That film depicted such a girl, with her skinny legs and just became a teen thinness skittering atop her too-tall high heels as an emblem of American decadence in a sort of apocalyptic look at the fall of the American city -e.g., in that instance, New York City, and propelled Robert De Niro and Jodie Foster (among others) to fame.

But this girl is emblematic of an entirely different culture, and for that reason the photo you interpret has almost no applicability to THIS photo.

This is a girl about 13-15, maybe even 16 years of age, trying out her training GGF shoes (don't ask me to explain GGF, ask an American girlfriend).;

I know, they're 'wedgies', but they're tall and they're really a substitute for high heels, which when this photo was taken, pre financial crisis in 2007, was de rigueur for Ukrainian women and the more expensive looking the better. 

Ukrainian girls, housewives out shopping, even to the store, Russians too, and many shop girls (not always in Kyiv where rules are slightly relaxed), felt it their duty in Ukraine and in most Slavic countries to wear 'high heels'.

A Romanian woman in Paris once lamented to me of her emancipation from wearing 'high heels' that men in her country would sneer at a woman who did not wear high heels and call it 'going Western' derisively.

I understood, as I had experienced (and still do) such a culture.

It's quite a cultural difference.

Women are out to be admired in Ukraine, Russia, and most Slavic countries, and interestingly, they often take impressive care of their looks and often are blessed with outstanding natural, classic good looks.

The men are absolutely impressed by the beauty of their women, and the women being subservient (though often well educated and highly able to work and working), often allow their own dominance by men, so when men 'choose' a woman, they also 'unchoose' and 'switch' women, or sometimes (quite often in fact) have one or more girlfriends or a wife and a girlfriend . . . .

If younger than 16 in all states, she's jail bait in the United States, and 16 is age of consent in Ukraine, but often men in their early to late '20s, or just older teens can be seen with 14 year olds or younger in regional and rural cities, and not for any purposely 'immoral' purpose but for genuine spouse hunting and girlfriend hunting.

It's a matter of a very strong cultural difference.

Neighboring Poland has an age of consent of age 15, Latvia, 14, Lithuania 14, several Balkan countries 14, also.  Source, AVERT, Age of Consent, published by the World Health Organization and readily found by Goggling its name.  Half or more of the US states also have 16 as the age of consent, so it's not all that unusual for such young women to be in the sexual pool.

(But US men who go chasing underage women are subject to prosecution by the US, so it's 'hands off' as their are real prosecutions . . . . . particularly in countries around the Pacific rim, but probably also in Ukraine, I would suspect).

Photographing pornographic (remains to be defined what pornographic is) images of a 'legal' girl also can bring grave problems under US law, too, so best advice is 'don't', as it may be illegal under US law, if not under local law.

Now, a man I know, a photographer from this very city, told me how he left his wife, age 30 (he was in his 30s and a businessman) to marry his pregnant girlfriend, then age 16,.

Two babies later, she and he were absolutely unable to communicate; she had no higher education, and was housebound (though not without money), and he had ulterior notices for being a 'photographer' I think.

The fact is this girl is practicing, as she teeters on her 'high heels' for snatching a mate.

It's the Ukrainian way.

Young girls will even sometimes  'snatch' or try to 'snatch' a really good man from an aging wife who is a good wife, because he's a known 'good guy' and 'good provider' -- because such men who are generally loyal are in far too short supply (it happened to the mother of one of my interpreters who lost her husband to a girl half her age.)

Girls think nothing of marrying a man twice their age in many parts of Ukraine and even in much of Russia, or did at one time.

So, the high heels are training shoes for grabbing a guy in a land where women have high education but low opportunity outside of its capital -- Kyiv.

Men often are notoriously fickle, having a good choice of beautiful women.

Men have said to me in all seriousness 'Oh I love my wife so much (thus sucking me in), she gave me two children, she's wonderful, she's beautiful and  . . . oh, if she asks you where I was all day Saturday, I was with you, OK?" (he was with his girlfriend and NO, I didn't provide an alibi).

Pressure is on to get married early; similar to the USA when I grew up, when all the good women were 'taken' by the time university graduation at 22 took place.

What was left, was pretty slim pickings, when I was a young man.

These days in the USA it's different.

In Ukraine it's not.

But in Ukraine, women marry young, and if they marry a guy somewhat older (not very much older) he often is immature and often a mommy's boy (same in Russia, where families coddle their boy children to a degree unheard of in the USA).

(these are generalizations, based on in-person observations and as generalizations, there are numerous, outstanding exceptions, but more often than not, in the last 10-14 years it's been more the 'rule' than the exception' that I've seen, though things are loosening up now.

Marrying or loving an older man is seen as entirely socially acceptable.

When I met in my '50s a woman half my age, the first thing she did in Russia was take me home to live with momma and poppa, then start by taking me to weddings and wedding receptions and tours of giant parties (and she was stunningly gorgeous and brilliant beyond all means).

In Russia or Ukraine it's completely different.

Poppa and I still are great friends, and he's only about a decade older than I (she got brain cancer shortly after marriage three years later).

A man (native or foreign) in his '50s may be stopped by a woman in her early '20s who is NOT measuring his bank account or his ability to provide a 'green card', though those things also happen too. 

This young woman, then is NOT a prostitute.

Prostitution is not done on the streets in my experience traveling through Ukraine (maybe somewhere outside my experience).  It's done in nightclubs, in bars, strip bars, and escort services and readily researched from the West.

So, she's certainly not a prostitute.

She's simply a young girl throwing her spindly legs and training GGF shoes into the let's grab a mate pool.

Nothing really more.

She's able to drink beer, probably has, but is NOT drunk (I now recall taking the photo and NOW specifically recall seein this girl, which I did not when I first posted it, but even then could tell the 'story'.  In fact, almost anyone in Ukraine and Russia of any age can buy beer -- no problem if there's money.

And it's drunk openly by teenagers in front of cops, but done civilly and not chug-a-lug to avoid being caught with a stash as in America.

Conclusion:

Jodie Foster, Ukrainian teenager prostitute she's not.

Very young girl teetering on training high heels out to find a mate, even to  marry at an early age:  yes, more probable than not, and if not to marry him real young to practice for a very early wedding.

(more if anyone seeks to question this analysis and observation).

(this is NOT a criticism of your own personal and subjective suggestion, paul, but is instead my 14-year-long observation based on experience in two countries and living among Russians and Ukrainians (and marriage to one for a while.)

Things in Kyiv, Ukraine's capital, are much more 'loose' and less 'rigid' than this analysis suggests, because Kyiv is more European-like and is also an education center, with many universities and higher education plus jobs for educated women that offer futures.

john

John (Crosley)

All l see is a nice looking ass!

I don't give a dang what  country it's from!

ha ha ha ha!

Yours is a taunting post.

You like nice asses, the above is a nice ass and that's all  you care about so poke a stick in my eye about all my analyses.

But I'm, smart enough to spend much time in a country where many of them look just like this, particularly in Dnepropetrovsk and other regional cities where there's a large number of not so wealthy students from rural folks who've been sent to larger cities (not so Kyiv where things are more European).

And a girl's wealth is in her looks (traditionally beautiful Russian/Slavic/Ukrainian faces and her body) and although this girl is very young, the local women of Ukaine keep terrific figures well into their first marriages.

Then many get ground down and rounded out by 12-hour work days and 6-hour work weeks and the expectation of having babies at age 20-22 which they do and some substantial number lose their figures and good looks -- a unversality that stretches also to neighboring Russia, to the lament of Russians in the country next door.

So, you began with a taunt, but happened on a universal or semi-universal truth.  The babes just are hotter in Ukraine -- no J-Lo rear ends on young women in Ukraine, at last fewer than in the United States by a huge percentage.  There's just no comparison.

American men come to Ukraine in droves looking for brides and not just with pretty rear ends, but with good character and education willing to be married not just engage in 'trial marriages' and not to run at first sign or 'hardship and a great number of them are quite happy (I've talked to lots of them on return holidays).

So, if you're in America, eat your heart out . . . . you don't know what you're missing.  (But most American men don't have an attitude of 'we're here just to look at 'asses' - they're looking for good wives which they find in abundance, and they do marry them, as do men from other countries, such as Israel, Great Britain, Germany, etc.

john

John (Crosley)

Let's be clear.

I enjoy also, as do most males, looking at a nice female rear end.

There's really little wrong with that; without that interest, the species would grind to a halt.  The instinct to do that seems to be hard-wired into 90% or so of the males of the adolescent and adult males of the species.

But to be solely interested in that, to the exclusion of all else with regard to the opposite sex, is a sign of mental laxness I cannot endorse.

I have little problem with an older man looking at younger women; it's far from perverse or perverted.  Everyone ages physically, but that doesn't mean they have to become mentally geriatric.

One wife of mine was a bout half my age to the minute -- yes, almost to the minute -- she chose me, not me her.  She got brain cancer at age 29.

And I learned never to go 'hunting' for women; they hunt for me or encounter me and occasionally 'stay' because of mutual interest.  

I respect and acknowledge that it is women who make the choices and that men merely make themselves available to women (albeit often pretty enthusiastically).

I am not available to very young women; what on earth would we talk about?

And most of my friends, male and female, tend to be very, very bright, regardless of their age -- others often are afraid of me, or just do not understand me at all.

One former girlfriend, recently deceased I am informed, I was prepared to marry, before she literally ran from the relationship.  She must have been nearly 80 when she passed away recently, yet she also knew the wife who replaced her in my affections who was half my age.   The term 'cougar' then had not yet been coined, but she would have been a 'founding mother cougar', and I couldn't have been happier with her (much older) company.

I just don't discriminate ONLY for younger women, and instead do so for women who are of high class and caliber with brains (if not always with highest education) -- and a nice rear end then is just 'icing on the cake' which thanks to good fortune, I've never found wanting in any woman who's sought my affection and kept it.

Judging from the clown image representing you on your profile page, your post and your profile really are pieces of 'performance art' and your 'mission' is to stir things up when people such as myself take themselves too seriously.

Am I wrong?

I doubt it, but if not, then I divorce myself from your misogyny. 

I was an early women's rights' supporter and actively litigated women's rights issues; today's women have rights I helped gain for them, as a male attorney who really never got paid for such work.

Today's young American women are desperate not to be called 'women's libbers' for fear of being seen as 'geriatric lesbians' I fear, but they make full use of the rights gained when I was younger - which rights I fought for, sometimes in court and always with full vigor.

So, are you a person who stirs the pot for the fun of stirring the pot or a true misogynist?

john

John (Crosley)

It is perfect, I know I have been at the same place and time wishing the night was not over and realizing that I had to take a step.

Great Job

In order to place it in context, I re-read all the prior comments and analysis.

It's still 'right on' and represents my best thinking.

Thank you for leading me to read this now somewhat older series of comments and for letting me know your familiarity with the scene depicted from your own experience.  I had passed over this photo when taken and only resurrected it long after taken, but find it stood for a somewhat 'universal' truth or at least was representative of a truth for the Ukrainian/Russian/Slavic countries' shared culture  based on my experience.

I'm glad it reminded you of what had to have been a good experience.

john

John (Crosley)