'The Muslim in America'

This is a visual metaphor of 'The Muslim in America' taken recently on a

US city street, without preplanning or posing - a true 'street' photo.

Your ratings, critiques, and remarks are invited. If you rate harshly or

very critically, please submit a helpful and constructive comment;

please share your photographic knowledge to help improve my

photography. Thanks! Enjoy! John

Excellent  street shoot,  with a story to tell.  An image  we can  create  too, for  many special  races to whom  emigrated  to the N. American continent, almost eliminating, to put  a mild  word  to it,  the  whole population of  the  original people  whom  lived  here  before us.  A  powerful image  with a thousand  words. It is a chance  photo,  not  to mach  to improve.  In the  eyes  of  the  aboriginal  population  we,  all, a terrorist  and  murderess,  and an occupying  forces here.  Please  don't  blame  the  new  comers. The  are  not  different  then  we where.

Cheers;  Bela

This is one of those discussion starters, and I think that is a great thing. I like her almost right in the middle of the shot too, face turned away, just a dark figure who could be anyone. This shot can be read so many different ways depending on where the viewer is coming from and what their experiences are. Great street shot, a strong story, and hopefully you'll get people talking. Well seen!

I am glad my photo inspired your reflection on the history of America.

Yes, 'manifest destiny' of European white men condemned those of color and non-Christians to being 'less than human' allowing the fledgling U.S. officially not even to count slaves as whole human beings, but as fractions, even while at the same time treating them as property, in states where slave holding was legal. (never in states such as Massachusetts where early Revolutionary soldiers were black and white alike . . . . . no slaves to free there . . . and no tolerance for slavery there.

And as white men marched and drove across the USA, they resorted in certain times even to the drastic act of distributing smallpox infected hides/blankets to aboriginal populations in hopes of annihilating them, even while hunters hunted down to eliminate the Great Plains buffalo (bison), which was the mainstay of their existence.

As a youth, Buffalo Bill Cody was celebrated for his prowess in killing all those buffalo (bison), but the real reason was to drive out aboriginal populations, something they didn't teach in my (otherwise well informed and liberal for the times) school.  They just didn't know.

(They also told us the reason people shake hands with the right hand is to show they were not holding a weapon . . . ignoring the real, traditional purpose of the left hand . . . . as practiced, say, in India . . .  for cleaning one's private parts (rear end) after defecation along with a pitcher of water.  Few Americans even now know about that, and nerver give a thought to life before toilet paper (or those who cannot afford it and assume the whole world just uses 'leaves' when TP is not available, even though much of the world is desert, or has no trees . . . . . life in the USA is to wear blinders . . . . . somewhat.)

I stopped, saw the flag reflected in a window, and got out, after taking the reflected flat photos then turned directly to the flag and stood on the sideawalk, wide angle lens in hand, took a few photos and this was one all in less than one quarter hour.

Others also were very good.

See my presentation on 'Photographers:  Watch Your Background' for my practice and philosophy regarding using backgrounds such as this to get high quality, frame-filling photos.

Bela, thanks for a high compliment -- to use a photo I post to THINK! to REFLECT, then to SHARE.

You can love the USA and also be critical . . . as not all its history is worthy of reverence.

The wonder of the USA is not that it doesn't make mistakes -- it makes them in great number, but that it reflects and tries to correct its mistakes and has a government system that is wonderful for allowing them to be corrected.

That's the ultimate strength and power of the USA's unique brand of representative democracy - a self-correcting Republic.

Edit:  5-20-2010.  Britain, with no Constitution, has taken extraordinary inroads into privacy of individual with cameras everywhere and programs to collect DNA on all residents.

However the new Prime Minister, refusing to endorse such tactics against freedom from intrusion, suddenly has announced a policy to throw out most such policies . . . returning the British state to a more private place to live, he suggets;  (all while Mayor Bloomberg was about to model a NYC system after London's I understand . . . .   The new PM said it was just too intrusive, with the British being photographed too many times too many ways with great potential for misuse . . . . a sort of Orwellian nightmare if placed into the wrong hands . . . . which might have been inevitable.

Bravo to him and civil liberties in G.B.

(end of editorial addendum)  JC.

john

John (Crosley)

(PS, this photo really has nothing to do with any attitude I may or may not have regarding Muslims -- only an exercise and 'food for thought'.

(And well taken by you.)

regards

jc

Thank you for your compositional analysis and your comment also on the importance of this as a 'discussion starter'.

Care to post some reflections?

I've posted a few, covering you while you were posting, in reply to Bela above.

I have an extensive background in 'traditional' American history, and have lived to see the 'partial' lie in it.  That does NOT make America Not a great country -- it is.  I go abroad regularly, and America is highly admired, particularly now under Obama (not under Bush - at least politically).

Best.

(Further postings encouraged)

john

John (Crosley)

Bela, you called this a 'chance photo'.

In one way you are correct.  I had stopped to photograph the flag mural and possibly passersby that contrasted interestingly.

But in a way, that's not chance.

It's only chance I hardly had to wait more than a few minutes for this woman to pass by with her shador (head coverings and modest, traditional, Muslim garments).

It would have been my dream, but notice that the photo is excellently composed, as I was prepositioned and pre-zoomed for this capture when she walked through the scene (and with my back to her, she came through unexpectedly.)

To clarify.

john

John (Crosley)

As a conversation starter, this one is a hot topic. It falls everywhere from religious beliefs to immigration and I am sure, a thousand grey areas in between.  There is a powerful juxtaposition of symbols here, some might even see it as a contrast. It immediately reminds me of the fear and prejudices following Sept 11th and how difficult it must have been for Muslim Americans who were hurt both by the tragedy and the ignorance of people who would extend blame even to the innocent. I've heard many stories of discrimitation against American muslims simply for having the same religious affiliation (or even from having just been middle eastern) as people who caused harm to this country.

It reminds me to be grateful that I live in a country where this discussion is possible, where different ethnicities and religous (or non-religious) belief systems can co-exist and even thrive. Grateful that the founders of this country were right minded men and set up the foundations of a republic where the privelages we have here could be built.

Saying that there are a couple of things as far as composition. This one gives me the feeling of having been walking down the street and glancing back over my shoulder at this woman as she passed, which could say a million things in and of itself, but I also wonder if it would have been stronger even from across the stree with a wide view of the flag and the smaller figure crossing it?

Really nice street photo, story telling ,and technically nice.

Congrat. Marianne

I often comment extensively, especially where discussion in comments is sparse, but yours is extensive and needs no 'help'.

Great contribution.

John (Crosley)

Thank you.

John (Crosley)

Think, just two elements and you write 'Great Story'!

Thanks so much.

It fills the frame, thanks to a very wide angle and 'being there', close up, not appearing to be interested in filming her but waiting for her to pass and when she passed just a bit swinging into action (she is not identifiable either).

Thanks again.

john

John (Crosley)

Bravo; antipodal ideologies captured on a single photo! Reminds me of 9/11. Be careful what's under her garb (or is it a "he"?) or in that "wow!" huge bag. She'd not get far in an airport.

And your comment was writing of first class quality.  No need for me to to reply or respond, simply point out that its writing was first class and it is 'right on'.

john

John (Crosley)

John,

As Nicole said, it would have made much more of a story if you had gotten the whole flag and this little woman underneath it. I also would have stayed away from the exhaust fan as well. AS regards the politics or social aspect, I have a different take. It does make sense that the moment you see somebody wearing "hijab" you immediately know it is a Muslim. There are a billion or more who do not use hijab and hence no story. To me she represents defiance against the society in general as she wants to wear what she thinks is right for her. Even in Muslim countries this defiance is visible. Check my photos under:" Against All Odds". All these women are not wearing "Hijab" as part of the subjugation theory. They wear it because they feel it is the right thing to do. Look at all the young Muslim Americans who wear Hijab ... If you check their parents are not always pushing these clothes on them. Let people wear(or not wear) what they want. Islamic societies have gone through fads as well. 

Finally, a great idea for a documentary shot. That is what photography is about.

Street is about moving subjects, very often.

I went several weeks ago to a professional photographer's photo judging, and there was a superb example of 'street' submitted as Photojournalism, showing a bum on a billboard.

Well, I thought, this is a great shot.

It showed a billboard in stunning color and a bum underneath, with the bum living under the margin of the billboard.

The photo was in contention for 'best of show' but lost as the judges reasoned it might have been a 'snapshot' though it assuredly was not; ISO settings assuredly were at their highest as well as 'bit depth'.

The artist later in accepting second place admitted the bum was there and lived there, but he paid the bum to stay there, look away and in a certain direction. 

The bum was thus a model.

If I had wanted the shot you suggest, then you would be my art director, and I the commercial photographer, just as that pro photographer was pretending to do 'street' but could not overcome in his perfectionism to make PJ or documentary or street 'candid' and instead paid for posing.

I was there, waiting for a likely shot, the woman passed, and this was the best anyone could have done without paying her,and the shador or hijab or whatever it's called wherever (modest covered clothes) were what they were and women wearing such clothes usually hate being photographed -- sometimes violently so. 

So, if one is going to engage in this pursuit, it's best to do so clandestinely if one hopes to avoid an argument (you will win, legally, but not before intervention by cops, perhaps, who are well versed in photographers' rights).

This, then, was entirely extemporaneous, and the best possible.  I'm not sure better could be had anyway, given the angle and the curvilinearity of the lens, with distortion, the angle of shooting the direction of travel, etc.

As to the vent, I wanted it in there and am happy with it.

It's pure 'street' where one paints vents in red and white to match flag stripes.

That's my take anyway.

As to cultural leanings, I am aware of some women wishing to show and wear modest garb such as above, and early on my own sister's being forced to wear such garb when she married an Arab and being shunted into the kitchen with the women while the man talked (she hated it, and later escaped the stereotypical garb and behavior, I understood long ago when I heard of such things, now long past.

I had felt for her and her plight as an American in a far off Arab land with the man she loved being forbidden from talking with him or being at his side after dinner and being left with the undereducated women (then, and it was decidedly so, then).

Things have changed and continue to change, and I have no particularly thoughts one way or the other about 'modest garb' except I like the beauty of women, and thus it shows little to me . . . . and does not delight me that women decide to cover themselves thusly.

Moreover, the idea that showing female head hair drives men sexually wild I find abhorrent.

I've seen several hundred women today and not one with their hair unadorned or uncovered showed me the least bit of interest in sexual things. 

As you mentioned some things are faddish, but some women do not recognize the faddish nature of such things.

I have a Muslim or two in my family and an in-law who was most favored was Muslim. I never thought about it other than he was 'most favored', and his son (an in-law) I am told also is Muslim and lives to modest ideals.

I've lived that way since childhood/early teens and wouldn't trade my upbringing for any in the world.

I'm multicultural, and this is my way of showing that multicultural and the juxtaposition of the woman, her garb and the freedoms represented by the flag. You interpret it as the freedom to wear her garb, and so it may very well be.

I cannot know or intuit otherwise.

That's the greatness of the USA.

We're all under one big tent . . . . and eventually we get to know one another . . . . and eventually our children become friends and intermarry . . . . . and as the generations pass America changes (and remains the same).

Bless you, Zaki. (an interfaith and intercultural blessing)

john

John (Crosley)

"co-exist" Nicloe? When is the last time you visited a campus?. Here is what you do Niclole: You take a little Israeli flag; put it on a little stick and then go to Berkely and wave it around and say "yeah".  See how long you "co-exist". Actually I recommend you don't do this.

John,

I know it is a difficult subject. The best way it should be handled is what you did: take a photograph and put it in photo.net." Picture is worth a thousand words". And remember you photographed what you saw and how you saw it. Somebody else may have a different photograph. Keep clicking my friend.

America has and still stands for Freedom. Let us not change it. Let people do what they like as long as they don't hurt anybody. Freedom of expression is not shown anywhere better than USA. That is why it is the greatest country that all admire or resent. When I see the Amish in their dress, the Orthodox Jews with their hats and apparel, Indians with their clothes and Muslim women in Hijab I always admire the greatness of this country. If you ever looked at the photographs of early immigrants you will easily say that you don't look like your ancestors in different garb. Diversity is the strength of USA. 

Meir,

Another great comment which belies what you have long said, that English is not your 'language'.  You are a master.  I do not necessarily endorse your ideas, as I do not know the current attitude at Berkeley now, but I suspect you do.  Hurrah for your articulateness, which is beginning to come into its own as a vital force; you are beginning to show great writing skills Meir.

John (Crosley)

You make a wonderful point about America; and it plays to America's singular strength among nations.

It is the 'big tent' where all must come, with many uncomfortable with their new neighbors at first, but later they all assimilate -- even 'take over' when they have sufficient numbers.

As to looking at garb, I remember looking at old "Muslim family albums' and never seeing ancestors' female hair completely obscured as current 'fad' or ultra conservatism would command today's young women to do lest the sight of their hair cause in me and others 'sexual frenzy' that is uncontrollable.

That  is a feeling I have never had, especially in relationship to a view of anyone's head hair.

;!))

If you know what I mean.

Yours is a valuable contribution, not to be denigrated by my remark above; thank you.

john

John (Crosley)

John,

It is not your sexual frenzy that worries them. It is their custom. Allow them to dress the way they want. They are not hurting you. Intolerance is not good for anybody my friend.

I am waiting to see another great picture from you. Good luck.

The statement about custom is correct, so far as it goes.  And that is into the mid '80s, I believe.

At that point, a new theory was espoused and began to take hold.

Prior to then, hair was covered out of feminine modesty, which I respect.

Many still do for that reason, which I respect.

Since that time a certain number obscure every strand of hair to follow the teachings of a certain individual/sect which teaches that the view by a male of even a single strand of female hair turns the male into a sexual frenzy, and hence utmost strictness is paid to keeping ALL strands of hair assiduously tucked away, among those particular followers.

I find that interesting and a little strange as well as unreasonable, since it is not CUSTOM but new interpretation or just new dogma.  But it's not my religion (as I espouse none), being ecumenist and being a follower of the Golden Rule (do nt harm to others and be a good person).

I am just off put by those who 'transform' 'custom' into new 'laws' then impose them as being 'time honored' when a trip through momma's family album will reveal that's not something momma ever heard of.

And Zaki, the purpose of photos such as this is twofold:  One:  just to make an interesting photo that 'fills the frame and creates a 'statement' whatever that statement happens to be, whether or not I happen to believe in the 'statement' as it is the 'message' that others see in it, not any particular personal ideology, as I am fairly easy going and flexible, so long as I get along and others do too and do not kill each other.

The other advances the first by provoking discussion just as we (and Meir above) have engaged in.

Ecumenical, cross-cultural discussion, in a polite forum, among those who love this craft/art and see it as a way of expressing our thoughts and reflecting our society and its beauty as well as its conflicts (and much more).

I will continue to pursue the goal you suggest, or course, and it seems this photo is headed to some sort of PN immortality as a 'most-discussed photo', as I had hoped it would.

I will look back in a year or so and see if it develops its full potential.

And look fondly on our exchanges here.

john

John (Crosley)

MEIR: Yes, co-exist. Maybe not thrive everywhere and under all circumstances but you can't make everybody happy all the time. Imperfect, maybe, but pointed in the right direction at least.

As to visiting a campus, those fine institutions of "higher learning..." most young people will go through several stages where they grasp passionately at the ideas and views of others before forming their own, particularly under the magnifying glass of a college. Once they've found their own way and the world has jaded them some then I will take their sentiments a little more seriously.

John, it is interesting to mention modesty and multi culturalism since the deffinition of modesty changes with borders and time zones. Thats where our strength as a country lies, in that all deffinitions (or most, at least, within reason) of the word can...here comes that word again...co-exist. Maybe not with equal acceptance and/or popularity but the right to express yourself and your beliefs as such is protected.

my cynicism aside, I am moved by the photo, for I know she came with dreams for a new and better and safer life. I wish her the same degree of success in her dreams as she wishes for my people in ours.

That is a very complex response.

As they say in bartender talk 'with a twist'.

Welcome everyone to my salon.

Thanks for the compliment of stopping by to have your discussion.

Chai anybody (Tchai - tea)?

john

John (Crosley)