black and white: then to now Crawling for Cash

oh, how on Earth is this possible in the 21 Century.. oh. toooooooooo sad!!!!!

 

Biliana

John - thank you. But credit where credit's due: I've learned a great deal from the commentaries here on PN of Laurie Meehan-Elmer, Salvatore Mele, Stephen Forsyth, Aaron Falkenberg, David Robinson, Pnina Evental, Jeff Grant, Knicki, Jenna G and Leigh Perry, and from the composition of their own shots, and from the images displayed on the S&D forum. This image is simply a good shot - lots to hold interest. I'll get back to you on the other two shots you mention. Best, Jeremy

Admittetly, I tend to veer off your photo's, because of the length and complexity of the threads( way out of my depth), but after following the evolution of the thread for a few days, and after Jeremy's comment, I found myself asking a question.

 

This is quite an unusual beggar photograph, not the more common squatting against wall/doorway with money sign/bowl that we're used to( or even desensitized to). That alone should provoke some questions in the viewer's mind. At first glance, I thought he was travelling, not begging, and it was the difference in speed between him and the walkers that hit me. When I realised what he was actually doing, my next thought was 'Is he for real?'.

 

Then you mentioned that he could almost be thought of as a street artist, and the colours of the original. I started wondering, that if this was seen in colour, would the colours change the attitude of the viewer?

 

I'm trying to reduce my thoughts to a simple question... mmm. O.K., how about this...

 

Does the B&W provide a balance between the reality( i.e. he's a genuine beggar) and his 'performance'? Would the colours, in the eyes of the viewer, turn him from a beggar, to something more akin to a circus act?

 

I don't think I mean from real to a fake, its more complicated than that... the emphasis would change, from him as a beggar, to his method of begging, to his performance. The B&W would humanise him, but at the same time, stereotype him. The colour would lessen our sympathy towards him, but at the same time, make him a more 'rounded', 3-Dimensional character.

 

You mentioned the 'profession' of begging. Would this sophistication and organisation be shown better in B&W or colour?

 

Not a criticism, just a question. I like the B&W, and I'll take your word for it that they're distracting.

This is a marvelous photo and equally fascinating thread. My compliments to the photographer and those discussing the matter.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

Some of my other very good photos have equally good threads, I think, with forays not only into photography, but into philosophy, politics, poetry, and various other subjects -- after all, photography is chronicaling the world around us, and one does not have to have a vacuum of a mind, even if photographs are sometimes to be viewed without a context (or as in a vacuum).

 

;-)

 

There's always room for one more in my critique commentaries, and you're always welcome.

 

John

Well, John I am browsing and that has to be the first case of pre-emptive critique I've come accross on this site!

I took a few shots of this guy but none as good as this - I was with you on one occasion when you were shooting him. This is about ten yards east of Soi 7 on the Northern side of Sukhumvit (she makes a mean salad by the way, searingly hot som tam from Isaan).

I heard a story about this guy; apparently he is an ex member of some small time street mafia gang who upset someone higher up the food chain and therefore he, along with a bunch of other "offenders," got maimed and given the job of begging/crawling. This is very demeaning for a Thai as they believe that having their head at foot level means they are being constantly abused. He gets dropped off by the gang from the back of a truck and collected the same time each day along with the others and has the takings removed from him. So it's a little more complicated than it actually looks.

Nice composition of diagonal lines in thirds and a good sense of movement and life; the tourists going one way, the beggar the other and the mobile street vendor casually waiting for cutomers.

A complicated, rich slice of life. A very interesting photo, Regards, Miles.

By the way, John I love the way you explain so much of your photos. It's wonderful that you share and give so much to this site with such eloquence and modesty.

 

I always say the more talented the person, whatever his or her field, the less afraid they are to give away the tricks of the trade and help and teach others. I found this to be the case when I met Philip Jones Griffiths who happily told me how he used a Minolta point and shoot zoom in order to get great candid shots for his latest book on current life in Vietman.

A 'diagonal in thirds' or somesuch. I hadn't analyzed that part of this photo -- it takes a guy with incredible intelligence such as your to 'see' things that I can't see. I had noticed that there were 'three planes and types of being'--static, crawling and walking', and I suppose those are the three you are talking about.

 

Yes, this is a complicated photo -- and I recall I spent some care framing it. I think I only took one (two at most). . . and a review of my downloads seems to back that up. I don't find any from another time, so it may have been that you were with me . . . but I only recall the scene, the framing, etc., and not my companion.

 

And, this photo, the highest commented on for the day, with this the 32nd critique/comment, is a complicated photo, but it only has about 8,000 views, whereas you are getting 10s of thousands of views for each of your wonderful photographs.

 

That, by the way, is contra to the usual scheme of things on Photo.net, where B&W photography usually takes a back seat and one prominent 'street photographer' of great talent (or more) has(have) taken his photographs from the critique forum because of lousy or mediocre reception.

 

It seems that casual viewers often don't get 'street photos' because often they require some thought, and the reasons for posting a particularly good one can be because it makes a point or a comment that casual viewers may miss (or not appreciate).

 

By the way, I'm hardly jealous of your success on Photo.net (and you are hugely successful I think you know), because it was my delight to introduce you to Photo.net and suggest you post your photos to see the reaction. I think maybe it has spurred you to an interesting and rewarding place.

 

I note that your success not only is related to your SE Asia photos, but your studio work as well, which speaks well for your general photography skills. I think that a brilliant mind (your is incredibly brilliant) is a great boon to a photographer who has other, inchoate skills and talents.

 

And, it seems, you actively are pursuing your goals by seeing, talking with . . . learning from other photographers, going to exhibits, galleries, etc. I wish I had the benefit of having been in London for that, but something about me still is more reclusive . . . and tends to center around 'seeing' the photography of others, but analyzing my own photographs.

 

I LOVE the idea of sharing tips and techniues and analyzing photographs -- especially for composition, because that is one of the wonders of this site.

 

In fact, the loads of critiques and comments I get I don't think relate to my skills, so much as to the way I treat commentators . . . something that many other more talented photographers might learn (I learned a lot from watching Loft Portugal's success in treating his commentators).

 

There's hardly any such thing as a 'bad commentator' for a photo if the commentator is somewhat honest and not vengeful, and in any case, there always is the seldom used right (by others at least) to comment back, and either agree or disagree with a commentator. I ask for comments and anyone with 'superior knowledge' to share with me, and they have in droves.

 

I think in part it's because this is a friendly place where people won't find argument, and their thoughts (which they wouldn't make unless they felt they were valuable) find a kind reception and often are incorporated into my photography in the future.

 

I'm kind to my commentators, because in return they are kind to me, and they share with me.

 

I also have learned from watching the comments of others on the photographs of others -- basic things, like keeping the horizon level in scenic shots, especially over water . . . so that the ocean doesn't drain;-)), etc.

 

And, who said commentaries have to be dull or critiques biting . . . and I know how to reject a critique, but I analyze them all . . . as well as the ratings, because there is a certain 'truth' in ratings as well, as I find on the few times I've reposted a photo, ratings seem unaffected by the time of posting . . . (some of those times are from posting Color to B&W, and the ratings changes seem to come from the receptivity of one format to a photograph than other.

 

I think people on Photo.net 'thirst' for knowledge, and here they can come for observations about not only photography (and some excellent critiques) but also about philosophy, sociology, crime (as here), the general human condition, politics, photojournalism (one member aked for advice on how to photograph demonstrations and possible riots in his former Soviet Country . . . and got good advice) . . . and so on.

 

I'd love it if other photographers were so open with their tips and techniques in their comments, and too often find that a wonderful photographer will not respond when a member asks him/her about a particular technical aspect of a photo, or do so in such sparing words that it destroys the concept of dialogue with the viewer/commentator.

 

Your comments are always well thought out, and always have added something, and for that they are particularly valuable.

 

And the effect of my commentators' observations are being distilled into my ongoing Presentation 'Photographers Watch Your Background' which maybe never will finish but which is open for view. (the software needs to be improved for creating 'Presentations'.)

 

Imagine all the technical points made above just about this photo, which shows how complicated it actually is . . . which doesn't mean that I'm a particularly good photographer, but I'm not bad about editing the many shots I take, nor insecure about pressing the shutter button -- despite earlier critiques that suggested I should have withheld photographing at least one situation that is one of my a highest-viewed (and commented on) photos. (Dead cat in roadway, with bulging eyeball, single photo portfolio, and in that case the 'string' was quite stupendous.)

 

It helps a 'string' of comments if one doesn't get one's back up when comments are made, and to defend a position if necessary after getting a biting or trenchent comment that misses the mark . . . I learned that early on when people rated a photo, and they missed the point of that photo because they rated it in thumbnail or didn't carefully consider it. (Photo of truck in McDonald's, single photo folder, with rear view mirror showing bearded driver's face, hand to chin, intently surveying billboards full of menu items and choices).

 

I am very grateful for your feedback, your comments (which always add something valuable), and your cross-global companionship, and for all those things I thank you.

 

John (Crosley)

Excelent capture!

Excelent capture!

I thought so.

 

If you want, you can say that again. ;-)

 

;-]

 

John

I counted 18 ratings today, and of the 11 whose identity is not anonymous because they didn't rate during 'rate recent', I count 9 subscribers and one foreign contributor who I am sure has trouble subscribing because of payment issues with the system.

 

Now that's affirmation.

 

I know that most members seldom rate all but the very best or unusual captures (usually both), and when I capture the attention of such a high percentage of subscribers -- members who feel strongly enough to pay subscription dues and a very highly regarded regular contributor besides, then I am sure I have made a capture worthy of note.

 

Little really went through my head as I captured except to keep the good stuff in and omit the distracting stuff -- my new motto on explaining how I photograph, (as member Miles Morgan who was with me I think when I took this will attest), and in this instance, it was far too pretty as a color photo, but as a desaturated B & W image, it's something that has composition as well as a message (multiple messages, so it appears).

 

Thanks subscribers (and Biliana).

 

John

Everything has already been said (very interesting discussion on this thread BTW). To me, what I like most in this wonderful capture is the people walking in the street to the opposite direction of the beggar's and how his empty recipient looks like one from the selling women, suggesting perhaps some professional relation between the two of them. There are so many details here, that the more one looks at this picture the more interesting it gets. I think that the B&W was definitely the best choice. Best regards, Alex

Yes, somehow this 'worked' too well as a color capture -- just too 'colorful' somehow, and it took away from the starkness and the 'lines' of the capture and its message. I do think you understood it well. I'm glad you took the time to read this very long thread -- I hope my better threads are like reading a book on composition, as that is part of their intent, and why I encourage them.

 

Best regards,

 

John (Crosley)

Excellent street photography, very moving!

My personal opinion . . . you're right.

 

But the 'view' statistics don't bear that out.

 

In color it was self-contradictory -- the colors were far too nice and contradicted the theme of mutilation (he was apparently mutilated by the local 'mafia' and condemned to 'crawl for cash' or better 'slither for sustenance' and pay them back every evening more than he needed for his bare maintenance, as true 'poverty' is pretty hard to come by in Bangkok for those who will 'hustle' a little -- it is possible to live on the streets for a thin person adapted to the heat/humidity. Homes routinely have no cooking facilities and a little coin buys relatively abundant food from street vendors and they'll take pity on someone who is starving (I've watched them).

 

Nobody I've seen just eats rice in those parts -- he's not a 'starving' beggar except for the results of 'crime'. Part of my information about this comes from member Miles Morgan who was with me (he was a non-member then) was I made this photograph. I'm not sure he saw what it was I was doing, but he sure was interested, and since then he's gone on to his own PN notoriety (with photos he was showing to me even that night -- around that time that he's just taken recently and had no one to show to. (I suggested joining PN immediately and exibiting them to the PN membership and the rest is PN history).

 

Miles had his 'ear to the ground' in Bangkok, as he travels there routinely and also to other parts of SE Asia.

 

I agree: this is one of my very best.

 

Thanks for letting me know your view.

 

John (Crosley)

The funny thing is that the woman that sells the food does not look at him any more :-)))) She looks something on the other side of the road...Like he doesnt exist. Indeed too theatrical. Most of these people are too low profile to get on theit knees or crawl. As you said (again) they prefer beeing in a corner not saying anything, hoping someone will understand.

 

bravo again :-)

This guy, a minor criminal who supposedly had his leg hacked off for some offense, and transported to this spot to beg like this and then who has his spoils taken from him at the end of the evening every day is being humiliated every day -- an awful life sentence. Who wants to look at him.

 

As a color photo it was full of brightness, wonderful side lighting, colorful food, flowers and everything inappropriate for the subject.

 

That's why it got desaturated, and for good reason.

 

Glad you like it -- you are right -- it's one of my best, and I'm proud of it.

 

(Member Miles Morgan was with me as I took this one, he recalls, and he's a better photographer than I, I think, but this is one he didn't 'see'. I had just met him and was selling him on joining Photo.net. Good thing I did; he's a stellar member.)

 

I hope your membership is a high point of your life as it turns out mine has been.

 

John (Crosley)

I like this photo!Sometimes I wish to photograph destitute persons but sometimes I feel ashamed!Shyness!anyway I made a similar photo in downtown Rome,Pantheon square...Then I gave him a coin!Best regards(photo in my foulder B&W)

One thing about charity: expect nothing in return -- not good use of your money to buy food for instance instead of maybe some alcoholic beverage. When you leave your charity, you must let go of your money. That's what charity is.

 

The best charity, of course, is to ensure that the recipient continues to receive, but if you give a coin or a bill, kiss it off. It's gone, so feel nothing if you feel it 'misused' -- that's the nature of the recipient oftentimes.

 

Charity is charity -- that's its nature.

 

Pick your recipient, then 'let go'.

 

And give 'for you' as much as 'for them'.

 

I understand from member Miles Morgan that this guy reputedly (Miles has heard substantial rumors to that effect) had his leg cut off by the Bangkok Mafia and to humiliate him, he is forced to beg, with them taking his 'take' and also forced to show the sole of his remaining foot (it is a grave insult in Thai culture to show the sole of your feet/foot to stranger, and he must do so in order to beg, so here is is perpetually swimming up and down the sidewalk, being humiliated and 'used'. (thanks Miles for the suggestion that you have 'inside knowledge' about this guy, and write me if you find otherwise).

 

So, if he is fallen Mafioso (Bangkok style) being punished with his take being raked off by criminals, I want no part of giving him anything. I'll take his photo, but that's it. He is put there to humiliate tourists, and if I see that, I'm not humiliated.

 

It takes a strong stomach sometimes to shoot 'street' and one earns that bit by bit, as you've seen after perusing all my black and white photos . . . . there are many beggars and some you didn't see who did get some money -- in fact those you didn't see probably got more money because I was moved, not because of 'photo opportunity' -- no quid pro quo need be given or implied to get my charity.

 

If you feel guilty, that's one thing,and it's OK, but if you feel too guilty, you'll end up the world's poorest street photographer.

 

;~))

 

You gotta know when to let the locals take care of their own; you can't save the whole world (there was a time when I thought I might try, and I was doomed to abysmal failure.)

 

Thanks for an informed comment.

 

John (Crosley)

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