From behind the veil

"it will make it impossible to answer the question whether it is ok to nail a dead rat on a painting of a photograph of a piece of cheese and call it photography." --Jeremy

Precisely. Artists don't care to know, for sure, the answer to this. They photograph and paint and construct and those are the answers and the real defining moments. One of them may well photograph the equivalent of this dead rat in just some special and previously unconsidered way as to transport you to where art has the capability of taking you. Art is about new definitions, not falling in front of old ones. The discussions and thoughts and treatises and usages of words about art can only suggest, they are merely an approximation and those who use words to describe art are most effective when they realize those limits. Words about art cannot answer or define and shouldn't try to.

As photographers, we seem to get upset if our creation of an image was largely based on the use of a computer and someone then questions whether the result is a "photograph" or instead should be called something else (a subset of photography or something completely outside of photography). But what if we were computer-based graphic artists (or computer artists) who started our work with a photograph and then, during the process of creating our image, digitally altered most of the original photograph to produce an image that had never been and could never be seen by a person; it came from our imagination and exists only as a digital or printed image. Based on some comments that I read on this and similar threads, photographers would call us fellow photographers, and what we produced would be a photograph. Might we not, as computer artists, be offended at being called "photographers," as if our true nature of computer artists were not given proper recognition and respect?

As a computer artist, I want respect for my profession and my craft, and I don't want to be called something I am not. I'm not both. I spent many years studying the complexities of computer graphics and imaging, I spent no time studying photography, and any photography I do is with a simple point-and-shoot that only captures a base image from which I can let my imagination as a computer artist proceed. The people with whom I share images for comment and suggestions on CA.net (computerartists.net) feel the same, and this often comes up when we discuss the computer image of the week, for which the computer artist who created it gets a little gold computer screen posted by their name.

Please, figure out where you belong in the grand scheme of artistry, and help me do the same. It's not easy, because the transition from photography to computer artistry is very subtle with lots of overlap. But what you do and what I do are very different, and society expects different things from us. You've been practicing your craft for many years, and it has evolved during that time. I've been practicing my craft for only a relatively short time, ever since the day that I wish I had bought stock in a little company called "Microsoft." Some of you will need to stay with your little group called photo.net, some of you may want to be in both photo.net and CA.net, and still others of you have no business in photo.net and need to come over to our group. At least that's what somebody told me [note to self: nice, protective save from flaming arrows and boiling oil].

Thank you.
Steve Penland, Computer Artist (M.F.A in C.A. from Matchbookcover University)

There is just one method left to differentiate between photographic originality and the digital photography, thats switching back to film.
It is the expatriates of this field whom they allowed the camera manufactures to flood the market with digital cameras and they let the films get ruined on the shelfs, if not them the manufacture will never risk their money and invest it in todays digital photography, this is not the cause of amateurs photographers.
Now, for me to except a line of difference, I like to see the big heads or so calling themselves to throw their digital camera in the dust pin and start working with films and make some effort to bring back film cameras and films to the markets and develop them further.
Although I use digital camera I am still widely in films, from 35mm to the large format and still taken the hard time to process my films ad scan them.

It's very windy today. I need to go outside and blow hard enough into the wind to get it to stop.

It's very windy today. I need to go outside and blow hard enough into the wind to get it to stop.

My friend Stephen you try to blow hard enough into the wind to get it stopped, I always thought it is the nature of our universe which comes with the wind, I never knew that we could stop that wind, if I did I would have tried to stop it when it is useful do so for myself, like with some philosophers trying to change Thursday into Friday to suite their need and interest. ( it is nice though to have your cake and eat it ).
My all respect my friend.

I think it might be helpful to put a little scale on this "problem". Saturday I ate in a restaurant with some relatives from out of town. My wife pulls out her iPhone and shoots some record stills and movies of the group. No Photoshopping, no cloning, just the pictures captured as they are so to speak. 99% of photos today are taken that way. Even in the professional/commercial side, it's the same. Wedding pictures, human and pet portraiture, photojournalism, product photos for TV, magazine and newspapers, nature and landscape, nudes, still life, macro, fashion, architectural, etc. The list goes on.

Most photos are photos and most people know what a photo is and isn't.

Further and beyond this astonishing eye and the chocolate skin the rest of the photo is set on  a painter's canvas making it really alive.You have my deepest admiration Bader.Regards

Hi Bader,

I don't know enough about post shoot processing to say if it is over processed. It does has a more real than real feel to it which is fine to me. You have made the most of the skin colour, eyes and veil here. I like the composition too. If I were to say anything i'd say, for me, i'd have the model up and to the top right and I think maybe it would be good to see this without the hands on the face. Hope that helps. Sue 

Even the original looks totally fake