Not defeated

Could I say it is not because I am a native Chinese that I am "dismissing " your interpretation, and Could I say I know far more better than you about this man and those who live in the same area. Meanwhile, communicating with a subject before pressing shuttle release is also far more than a friendly talking, that's why I learnt your native language, read your history, studied your custom before I took a photo. I don't want to bring any misunderstanding to my countrymen. As I said, the "Not Defeated" is a "perfect-exposued" snapshot for personal memory, a" freindly talking" is enough, that's all. If you expect something art from this photo, I'd persuade you watch it on the position of photo-documentary. Please forget "conspires against communist China ", that's a bit out of line. You could have your own idea of the photo, I respect that, but may I speak out my opinion please?

I must thank you very much that you helped me understand there is still a gap between east and west, so I could take photos for living for another 20 years.

B.RGS!

Lei

that he's not wearing any pants? Kidding. I think it's too tightly cropped around the window frame. I would like to see more of the building on the right. I've traveled a bit and have to agree that this guy's life might not be as bad as Westerners assume. Just because he lives in modest conditions and doesn't have a SUV parked in the driveway, or maybe he does, doesn't mean that he's been through hell and is flashing the V-sign to prove that he's made it though. He's probably a lot less stressed than most of us. Also, I was taught that you don't title a photo because it should stand or fall on it's own without influence. But of coarse on the internet you don't have much of a choice. Congratulations on POW.

old man,new welcome.not bad.

Carl, the first time that I came across "Not defeated", was whilst browsing the random image ratings UI. That means that I did indeed have the opportunity to evaluate Jan's image without too many distractions, or intrusions. As we all know, apart from the photographer's name and caption, the "Critique photos" queue provides us with little detail. So, your comment ties in with Daniel's statement

"I was taught that you don't title a photo because it should stand or fall on it's own without influence."

I have to agree with Daniel's statement. But regarding what he said about not having much of a choice on the internet (PN), a caption (title), any caption for that matter imho, is better than #002351 (for instance). During my first month as a new PN member, many of my uploads were entitled something like "dsc00023".

However, looking through other folders, I quickly discovered that it was much more 'interesting/entertaining/informative' (insert your own interpretation here), to see the pop-up labels on many thumbnails... It appears to me, that most of us use captions for our uploaded images.

Lei, I ackowledge the fact that, like Jan, you are not a native speaker of english either! While it has taken me a bit more than 5 minutes to compose my comments, I very much appreciate what you said about spending up to an hour (with the help of a dictionary), to post a reply in this thread. Would like to thank you for your efforts to participate and perhaps we should "talk" a bit more via e-mail...

Still not convinced that any PN member can be called your "friend" after you exchange a couple of comments and ratings (I have "0" people marked as "interesting" in my workspace...), but sure, apart from "supporting" Jan's POW, I am probably "protecting" the fact that my name is recorded as the first comment on "Not defeated"...and just wanted to make sure that my initial judgement of Jan's image wasn't misplaced! ;-)

I am sorry to say, old men like this are everywhere in Asia. It's another matter if he's photogenic or not, and willing to be photographed or not. Usually they will let themselves be photographed and then later comment 'ah, foreigners and their weird curiousity'. Then there are the other less usual ones who actually feel that they're being patronized. What's exotic- I bet they will find your house and any living old folks in it exotic too if they ever come over to your country. With a camera, one of them may even start snapshooting away at you. Will you wave hi? Those of you who work or stay in areas popular with tourists may understand what I mean.

And that old man's victory sign. Come on. If you look at any photo albums from east Asian families you'd find them in every picture. I once asked why, what is the sign for, and one answered 'Don't know. Everyone else do it, so why not?'. It's not more different from saying 'cheese' when you are being photographed in holiday shots.

 

Sorry, it is not a bad picture, but I find the interpretation made in this discussion to be veering off a bit from what the subject matter really is- 'oh, foreigner wants to take picture of me...ok, why not, maybe he will send me a back a copy later'.

 

Congrats on the POW. :)

Actually, in that particular province of China, two raised fingers held at precisely that angle mean, "up yours, butt-faced barbarian!"

 

(Just kidding.)

 

I think this is great shot! But beyond stating where it was taken, I don't think this needs a lot of explanation. It is a symbolic photo to which a wide variety of meanings may be attached; international brotherhood of man, strength of character over advancing age (and a lifetime of dental deprivation), or just a guy waving at the photographer.

 

Good street photography is very hard to do, and this is an OUSTANDING expample.

While this same composition might have meant something else entirely in Romania in 1981, any time walking around a Chinese neighborhood should be enough to establish that what Westerners call a victory sign is just a fiendly wave with no poilitical implication whatsoever among older men in China. If he were instead a longtime New Yorker who goes out a lot it would be neither a wave nor a victory sign. He'd be hailing a cab. Context means something.

 

It's sort of like how if you take a picture of someone in a vegetable market in Kiev or some other country where this form of Chinese waving instead stands for defiance, and they're giving a thumbs-up sign, they are not saying "right on!" or imitating the Henry Winkler character in the '70s sitcom "Happy Days". Instead, a thumbs-up in that part of the world is how you ask for one of something. Raising your index finger in these places will get you two of whatever it is, since everyone knows a thumb is "one", and you add the index finger to say "two".

 

Next week: an exploration of the semiotics of nose-scratching in Sicily.

Seven, when saying "some see this", and "some see that", whatever one sees should be based on certain facts. For example, take the building, house, boat, or whaterver it is he standing in. My question, is it his structure or perhaps it belongs to a friend or neighbor. Does he live there? Does anyone live there? Is it only a workshop or a tool shed? This guy might live in a nice house up the street. He may be the town Mayor. He may be the richest man in the territory. His dental problems could be the result of the closest dental service being 200 miles away, combined with a culture where dental care, education, access to floride, etc. is limited. Without knowing a few facts, suggesting what you imagine is this guy's plight to be is simply not valid.

There's signs and signs, and nosescratching isn't a good one in Sicily, Steve, so you better watch out. Here's one for you if you keep on threatening my good friends in Corleone: see pic...Cheers, and Jan, what does this sign mean in China by the way?

The sign doesn't mean anything. If there was, it's been lost- it's now part of a 'picture taking' pose. My aunties do it, my cousins do, but I don't, and when I ask them what's that for, they don't know either.

Congratulations on POW! I enjoyed this photo just for the friendly feelings it radiates. The two fingered wave was also used by people of the old west in the U.S.A., Just meant "Howdy Pardner". The age of the gentleman, and the surrounding elements give atmosphere to this image, not of poverty or wealth, instead... human contact as it should be. Peace, Ray

Looking at Jan Martin's portfolio I find little evidence that this photo is part of a definitive photographer's "style". His portfolio is eclectic and un-comprehensive (although this may be because the Photo.Net upload engine has defeated his best efforts to date). I suspect it's a one-off picture, pleasant enough in content, but not really all that weighty, either in itself, or as an expression of a world-view of moment. Lucky shot.

Consider this: good "decisive moment" photography hitherto has relied as much on technique, raw ability to react to changing scenes and pure luck as much as it has relied on a photographer's eye. But this is going to change, and quickly. Pretty soon we'll have (I guess, digital) cameras that can take high-resolution multiple shots of any scene you care to mention, literally in the blink of an eye.

I imagine some sort of contraption that affixes to your sunglasses (much in the fashion of the old Superman comix' back-page "X-Ray spectacles"). A contraption that enables the photographer to merely blink or otherwise subtly react so as to record a whole progression of shots such as this without the main character even realising he or she has been photographed. Technology (admittedly bulky) already exists to allow the continual recording of five or so seconds of real time action in a sort of digital "tape loop". When something of interest crops up you can go back (as long as it's within five seconds, and isn't that ample for this kind of photography?) and retrieve any individual frame that may be required, at the moment for forensic purposes, but eventually for the sake of art. So the technology's (currently) bulky, so it's (currently) low-resolution, so it's (currently) expensive... one day it'll be compact, hi-res and cheap... and auto-focussed into the bargain. Where will all the "decisive moment" photographers (of which I am an occasional member) go then? When suddenly their "art" - the art of reaction and technique - becomes accessible to anyone with the inclination to indulge in this sort of photography and the ability to realise within five seconds that they have a money shot already captured? See an interesting set-up.. and its captured. What will be the art of the decisive moment when all this is possible? ... and it will be, soon.pIn my view, the "art" will lie, not in equipment or physical ability to compose and focus, but in pure vision; the ability of one person to communicate to another their view of the world in a way which is meaningful and important. As technology makes things easier for techno-clutzes (like me), the measuring stick will proceed away from the physical restraints inherent in photography until today, to a much more personal medium: pure, human communication. When this happens, photography will have come full circle: from an egalitarian replacement for that most imaginatative and difficult of arts, painting, through a century or so of technology and science, finally back to a vehicle for the communication pure insight, unrestrained by moment or physicality.

So, as an example of human communication, what does this picture tell us? Something meaningful, or just that an old guy in China will give the "V" sign when he susses yet another photographer pointing a camera in his general direction? I suspect the latter and I have to wonder what else this picture has to tell us, about the old man (who may not, in fact, be all that old) and most importantly about Jan, and the way he sees his world.

The "decisive moment" is dead (or dying). Long live pure thought (something that cannot be hidden forever).

Great photo, Jan. One thing you might try before you shoot anything

else would be communicating with a number of the responders above

to put together a 300 question form to be filled out by future

subjects. Then we would all learn vital photographic information like,

"the ornamentation around the window frame was cardboard, nailed there

to keep the cold wind out...then later torn off.

 

Like I said, great shot!

 

Chris

The decisive moment is not dead yet, just that there are far too many other undecisive moments out there flooding our senses, especially in print. I am one who is guilty of this.

 

I too fear for the death of the art as technology eats in, I'd hate to see the art turned into a science.

Complimenting the photographer seems intended to add legitimacy to one person's claim that their opinion is somehow more valuable than those preceding it, Yeah right.

 

I see that the decisive moment has been left for dead on the side of the road, perhaps the latest victim of a reckless sport utility vehicle owner. Sadly, the decisive moment was no longer what it once was. It was old and tired and prone to telling unbelievable stories that we have since found out can be easily faked.

 

The fact is that we are a society of unbelievers. We are easily led from our convictions by the false Gods of over-saturation and canned solutions. Over time, we have lost our fur and our photographic instincts. No longer do we have the ability to sniff out our prey or to stalk it in silence, confident of our skills and abilities. (I also have the ability to speak for a multitude of people I know nothing about).

 

The decisive moment is near death but not dead, lest if become a martyr for the true believers to rally around. It has been put on display as a relic and a warning to be wary of unachievable goals. Technology is the official God, assigned and endorsed by the government in association with your local marketing agency. The tag line says, "Be fat and happy." Taking time to develop knowledge and skill is surely a waste of a short and meaningless life. Our job is to work and consume then work and consume some more. It's an endless and short life cycle that we should be proud to participate in. Watch out for those wild-eyed fanatics that preach purity and precision. They live somewhere out in the desert and worship light instead of manufactured goods.

 

I don't have any specific thoughts about this photo, other than the man appears to be wearing a London Fog jacket (I wonder where he shops). It is important to note that common gestures do not have the same meaning in different parts of the world. We have a tendency to assign our own values to things. Here is the USA people always seem to pose for a photo by achieving a silly uncharacteristic grin. I keep thinking that if we backed up a few feet we would see a sign above the window that reads, "Tourist Office." I think the photo would be much improved by the addition of a sock puppet on the man's hand in the likeness of a camera-toting tourist.

My comment above concerned the advent of the cameraless picture: a device will one day be invented (I suppose it will still need to be some kind of device) that doesn't need to be held up to your eyes, or carried around your shoulder that screams, "I'm a photographer". This device will allow us to record continuous decisive moments without needing to have sufficiently quick reflexes to get only one chance at these instants in time. We'll be able to back up our tape or disk or memory stick a few seconds and pick out the best shot, taken merely by having the device in "record" mode and focusing you eyes on the scene. How many times I've cursed and said to myself, "That WOULD have been a good shot", only to know that, because I needed to utter the words, I have missed the moment.

 

When the cameraless camera comes about we won't be congratulating photographers on their skill in combining focus, composition and reflexes to capture a moment, or in making themselves invisible to their subject, because these things will be taken for granted. What we'll be congratulating and celebrating is pure vision: the ability to see the potential in a spatial arrangement of objects (even after the fact) and faces (that may not normally be related to each other, or may be unaware of any relationship) and to record it clearly and with high fidelity. Who knows, maybe these pictures will be in 3D as well.

 

This is why I mentioned painting as a purer form of art. Apart from simple technical precautions regarding making the image permanent, the painter can paint whatever and however he or she chooses. Soon photography will be like this. Capturing a decisive moment won't be enough. The skill will be in the choice of what to capture and in how these choices are put together. HC-B alluded once to the satisfaction he got from predicting when a decisive moment would happen in a given situation. His skill (as he saw it, and only upon being pressed to say something about his art) was in making some kind of order out of what he saw unfolding in front of him and then following his intuitions by extrapolation so he could be ready to freeze the anticipated moment on film. He claimed this was good for his personal development (although he was supposed to be a cranky old coot) and, by showing his work to others, perhaps for theirs as well - although I'm not sure how altruistic he was in this regard. We only have his word for it.

 

How many HC-B's are there out there who don't have the reflexes or the understanding of human emotion to be ready, waiting for that moment to unfold before them so they can snap off a picture of it? Not as many as there are people who can recognize such a moment if it is put in front of them. I'm talking about what amounts to the "viewer" as "photographer". It's too early to say what is the most valuable talent: anticipation of a moment, or the (less time-dependent) recognition of it for what it is.

 

The history of technology has taught us that, with the advent of word-processors (to take one example), the written word didn't get much better in quality, only in quantity and presentation. It's trite to say we live in a civilisation based on presentation and spin, because technology has allowed us to create such a world. But I hope there's some value in having to strive hard, climbing over obstacles, no longer technical, now personal, for your results - whether they be written or photographed. It'll be interesting to see where we go when photography that is regarded today as excellent is truly, technically available to all and is elevated beyond the ambit of parlor game or conjurer's trick, plus some luck, plus some wit. Will we go back to the dimensionless blank canvas on which we can write, paint, scrawl, photograph anything that comes into our minds (thus freeing them), or will all phtographic output look the same? I hope for the former, I fear the latter.

I think you are getting ahead of yourself. You won't be able to congratulate anyone on their pure vision because the camera (device) will only make an exposure after analyzing the scene to make sure it complies with all known rules of photography and composition. No more bad photos period. Forget about creativity, because the camera will not let you bend the rules. It won't even take a photo of an ugly person because only faces that match the current idealized version of beauty will activate the shutter. For an extra charge, you will be able to buy additional program cartridges to customize the camera for new fashion and beauty fads.

 

I read a comment in the current issue of LensWork Magazine that essentially states that painters (paintings) construct while photographers (photographs) reveal. I'm not sure I totally agree with that point of view but it is an interesting attempt to point out the differences.

 

I wonder if you have ever sat through several hours of the in-laws vacation video shot out of a moving train window. I challenge you to find the decisive moment in that. I think there is still a ways to go from "pointing" to "composing."

You're a dreamer, Tony ... FBI will never let us use them.

Tony, would'nt you want to see through the eyes of the others? I think Philip Dick wrote a few stories about this. Just imagine if your inbuilt camera (perhaps in the eye as you suggest) is not of a still type but actually a live video camera, where you can uplink your 'footages' to anyone interested. Would that world be a nightmarish one or one where knowledge and information can truly be shared by all humankind? OK, this is getting off topic already.

That's easy, Dennis. The decisive moment of your in-laws' video is when it ends.

 

Of course there will be "photographers" who still cannot see. The cameraless camera will reveal all.... about the photographer.

 

What I was suggesting was that we should start assessing candid photographs with the new technology in mind; get into practice before it sneaks up on us and bites us on the bum. Would this guy have waved if it wasn't for the camera? Was there a more interesting shot? Is it POW because of the photographer's eye or the unusual juxtaposition of the "V" sign wave and the culture, itself a seeming response to the presence of a visible camera?

I guess by now I should realize that I am doomed to be upstaged by The Master of Rat Cunning and Charm.

 

I think there is a basic difference between candid photography and vacation photos. The same can be said for family photos where everyone seems to launch into a circus act as soon as Dad pulls out the camera. There is just something about having your photo taken that make humans behave in odd ways.

 

I glossed over what Tony was saying on both occasions. We are about out of time on this one.

Maybe indeed the days of fully automatic art productions will come. Maybe Tony's dream cameraless camera will exist some day, and possibly fairly soon in fact...:-)

If that's the case, I too will regret the good old days of the street photography hunts, when it was still easier to fail than to succeed...

But if we look at the fact Tony stated very well above, which is that quite a fair bit of street photography is partly luck anyway, I can only wonder why we would care so much about the merit one has to produce any image.

Photography, in essence, and even in studio environment, can only aim for "PARTIAL CONTROL" of all human subjects. In studio, a fantastic expression can be ruined by the blink of the model's eyes, for example - and I know no prevention for such things... Or to put it in a humoristic way, the model can even faint, have a heart attack, or simply decide she's bored and walk home...:-)) On the photographer's side, besides human errors, the equipment can just stop working any time - as we all well know...

Basically, there's luck in every picture we take - admittedly a bit more or a bit less, ok... So, logically speaking, we can safely say that every great picture is a bit of a miracle to some extent... Merit suddenly appears then as a very relative value. I respect the merit of a photographer, for sure, but the point I wanted to make is just this: the image-maker is only one of the 3 poles of photographic communication.

If the photographer has a lot of merit for grabbing a rare image, but the picture is technically or artistically bad, then how much more than what it is will that merit be worth...?

In photographic communication process, there's a photographer, but also a photo, and a viewer as well... I don't care much about the talent or the merit a photographer has for a capture, UNLESS I see a great or a fantastic photo. The photo is what matters, and for me, the photo's content & form matter more than anything, because the photo is what in the end will give me a viewing pleasure - or not.

To put it in simple terms and with regards to this POW, I see SOME merit, and SOME luck on the photographer's side, but I don't really care all that much in which exact proportions. What I care for is simply this smile in this window, which just tells me that somebody is friendly to a photographer, and probably a happy man in general - just based on his expression... What I also care for is the fact that the window itself and its surroundings are the sure sign of a POOR habitation. And I care to see a happy person in a poor habitation in China.

This shot isn't empty at all. I don't see any political sign in his hand, and I don't even care all that much for his hand... What I care for, is just that simple happy expressions in poor surroundings. I have seen way too much of "miserabilism" going on worldwide, as if the crowds in the west would feel sometimes reassured to see Asians looking miserable, and to think "Hey, aren't we lucky to have 3 TVs 29" in our flat !"...

This shot, in that resect, is just fresh and optimistic, and it tells me that money isn't everything - something most passionated photographers can probably understand.

Sorry if this isn't a very innovative conclusion to my post, but sometimes a feel-good shot simply feels good, eventhough it isn't a masterpiece to be hanged in the European House Of Photography...

Wonderful !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

to the heart...Marvelous.

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I really admired the the elder in the picture!