...Association...

Pnina, your prologue explains the caption and your 'association' with everything beautiful,subtle and thought-provoking. This image can be be interpreted in many ways. To me her gesture suggests invocation for emancipation from everything dark and obstacles to freedom.

Like Ton, I think you could have explored further with this idea visually.

 

I think Ton's version has lost the softness you have achieved but I still think you could give this a little more life than it seems to have. I also find Ton's version graphic and unnatural. To me, being able to feel the material's texture is a key here, the delicacy with which the light comes through it, both lost in the stronger black and white version. Most important is the sense of her in the dance studio, which really tells a big part of the story, again lost in Ton's much more isolating version.

 

I'd keep this in color as you have chosen, because I think the pink of her skin and in the walls of the dance studio works nicely against the soft blue of the light coming through the material. A nice pastel palette to work with, against which the black of the material helps tell your story. I think you can really tell your story of association and of women's dress and what it says about their treatment in different cultures and I think you can do it here visually, especially thinking about how the black material can relate to the sweetness of the other colors and how her hands and eyes can play a little more of a role in the image.

 

For the most part, my eye is being carried to the right side of the back wall. I'm not sure that's where I want to be led.

... the one thing that Ton did that I like was to remove the image from the surroundings, the rehearsal room. The image of the woman, the intensity of her eyes, the position of the hands, all evoke something mysterious and liberating. Whether or not you do a delicate bw conversion or not, perhaps you can do something to accentuate the mystery.

Daily, in the dance the split of a second makes the difference....;-))

 

Kirk, thanks ,you have touched two important points, one is the L side. It was the choreographer behind her holding the material, cropping her out, left only an imaginative wall. The second is the upper opening of the ceiling served as the "glass roof" that is so hard to get through. Imo, a very nice observation Kirk.

 

 

Amal ,you are right that it can be interpreted in many ways, , this rehearsal innocent situation evoked a ton of association in me,that is what women are fighting to achieve ,and my wish to present both sides. .

 

Fred, Thanks for your wide evaluation and ideas that are very much appreciated, your suggestions will help me to explain my reasons, and why I think they were right for my intention and association. I have a more contrasted version, and without the bars on the lower R. I decided to upload this version , as I wanted the softness of her hands in motion, and therefor a bit blurred , waving like calling for help. I wanted especially her face an eyes a bit hidden behind the dark material , as they are hidden in other cultures ,far from public eyes, because I felt I want the sense! the feeling of them, less the presence of her gaze. Both "weak"as the women situation in some societies. Composition wise I tried it without the bars, and thought that they connect her, and leave her unseparated from the dance world., also the upper part of the roof line ( glass roof), worked better Imo parallel with the bars than without them .

 

So, to sum it up, it was right for me and my feeling as a woman . I will look at it after sometime, evaluate it again ,and see if I was right, or it needs some changes( as you did in one of your works ).Thanks Fred.

 

Dennis, thanks as well, as I wrote to Ton, it is a good possibility ,but takes it to a different place from my aims ,explained to Fred ,and along the thread. I don't feel that changing it to B/W, will serve my association to leave it in the two worlds....

 

Thanks to all of you in this thread ,your impressions, suggestions, and observation helped me to explain an important issue of women's life and agenda ,through a dance rehearsal.....

Just to be clear, I wasn't at all suggesting that you remove the bars on the right. As I said to Ton, I think it's important that we see this as a dance studio and the bars help that. I like what they add to the photo. When I said I was distracted by that wall, I was not speaking about the bars as much as the lighting.

 

Interestingly, what I said when I did my recent change on the "caged" photo was that I was originally interpreting the visuals too literally, and so even though I wanted his face in shadow and somewhat hidden, my first version took that too literally. The second version, I feel, still maintains that shadowed/hidden feel, adds a bit of a new dimension, and seems to work better visually.

 

You mentioned contrast in your answer to me and I hadn't said anything about adding more contrast, so I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that. As a matter of fact, I talked about keeping the palette in the pastel feel, just doing a bit more with it, which does not have to mean more contrast.

Although I don't presume to have the technical expertise of some of my colleagues (including you), I strongly recommend that you leave the photograph exactly as it is. Your explanation and the photograph are linked. Therefore, to change the photograph would be to change the concept of it. Although I think Ton's version is impressive in its own right, I don't think it connects quite as well with the concept as your original. Perhaps some other concerns could be addressed, though, by cropping a bit more from the top.

 

By the way, it is interesting that you commented on my abstract version of a B&W I posted today. My shot was intended as a commentary on the typical dysfunctional family, while yours was intended, at least in part, as a commentary on the dysfunctionality created by women who are forced to cover all but their faces. Thanks so much for your comments, and also for your efforts to win freedom for people enslaved.

 

My best,

 

michael

 

 

"to change the photograph would be to change the concept of it"

 

Then how would we ever critique conceptual photos that we thought could express their concept better?

 

Isn't it possible, indeed likely in many cases, that making changes to a photo can simply better visually convey the concept rather than changing that concept?

 

Just because a photo is intimately linked with its concept doesn't mean it can't be improved through certain changes. If that were the case, then the concept would be a dictator rather than something to be expressed.

 

Ultimately, it is up to Pnina, of course, to look at her photo in light of the critiques and comments and decide how she feels about it. She may, of course, decide to keep it as is. But, in my opinion, her informed vision will decide that, not the fact that the concept is absolutely determinative of the vision.

Fred, Thanks for your clarification about the wall, but before I have uploaded this photo, that its association was tremendously touching for me, I tried possibilities, I tried more contrast, and without the bars, not because what you wrote ,but because I tried for myself. I understood your observation, and it simply was a good opportunity to explain my reasons and emotion .

 

I liked your second version of "Caged", ! and thats why I mentioned it,as I will look at this one again, after sometime. I liked your interpretation !

 

Michael, thanks, As I wrote and explained ,I like it as is ,and will look at it again after some time. I'm very glad all comments have enabled me to explain what was in my mind.

Michael, I liked your last upload, there are photos that the parts creates the whole, and are thought provoking.

 

 

Fred, It is so fast that I answered yours and Michael's previous comment.

 

"Then how would we ever critique conceptual photos that we though could express their concept better? "

 

I agree with you Fred!

 

Michael we learn all the time,and I like to listen and weight what was said, and if I find it right to my photo ,I will do it or at least try, thats how I feel I develop.

 

Thanks both of you, for an interesting discussion.

 

Very fine portrait, excellent capture! Best Regards. Glauco. (7/7 an.)

strong & real - congrats!

just a few points. I would like to see some more texture as well but that was hardly a choice. First of all there wasn't that much in the original upload to begin with and some more was lost in yet another compression. So texturewise we agree. Even more so, it looks that there is enough of it in the original RAW file and bringing that out would work great to improve the photo as a whole. Contrary to most of you I do find the surroundings far more distracting than adding to a real or perceived story. Perceived because there are different takes on this possible. For ME the strongest and all important elements are the hands and even more so the eyes toegether with that nice posture. So maybe I'm a Filistine but for me everything outside the black is mere clutter, there is just not enough to hold on to. Lastly, my quick edit is, as I stated, just one possibility (thanks btw Michael). I still don't feel it's processed to its potential. It would also work in colour for me, at least with some serious colour correction, especially the skin tone is off. So yes, a good photo but one that needs to be worked on.

I actually had the exact same idea as Ton and took it into ps to try it before I saw his version. I prefer the tighter crop too but I understand that it is Pnina's interpretation of the scene. I look at it from more of a graphical standpoint,trying to arrange the pieces, not the story. A great discussion piece.

I though about what you felt and suggested, and tried to rework on it going again to my RAW file ,taking into account your remarks.I still did it with my concept as a guiding line, and I need some time to know if it is an improvement. But I would like to know what you and all the others that commented on it think of this version. I see it as a learning exercise (and it still needs some work I think....). Thanks.

PDE

The photo is and remains your statement, retaining a hint of mystery whether reworked or not. The original is an interesting one because the pale colors are such a contrast to the black garment. I see her in the midst of an escape, either retreating back into the black or emerging out from it. I see this as a between worlds shot. The original has a hole in the ceiling. The energy from her hands seems to flow up and out. Removed from the scene, the photo feels a bit more static and staged.

 

 

I think that one eye tells it all. Intense and darkly circled. The eye, even more than those upraised hands, appears the driving force in this photo.

To you Pierre .

 

Jeff, "I see this as a between worlds shot."

Thanks for expressing your impression and point of view,

This expresses my feelings . Interesting how a human brain is interprating a scene. I tried a second version,as an exercise , trying a different possibility.

 

I agree with Jeff that the photo loses some important dimension, story, and sense of space without the ceiling.

 

I also agree with Jeff that this is and remains your statement.

 

Pnina, you've been very gracious in receiving valid and helpful critiques on this one. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them. But it's nice to have other sets of eyes willing to share insights.

 

If we are too protective of ourselves and others, shielding ourselves and each other from the possibility of seeing through an outside observer's pair of eyes, we will not really hear and are less likely to accept critiques that could help us grow and improve.

 

I like that Jeff suggests that, even if reworked based on suggestions, it remains yours. I have replaced several photos recently based on the keen eye and thoughts of others. I am very thankful that others were willing to critique the way I expressed my vision. I know they weren't trying to change the vision or the story, but merely offering alternative ways of expressing or realizing what I was after. If I had the attitude that my statement and my original expression were somehow married, I would not have grown from those experiences and I might as well have hung those photos on my own wall and sat there looking at them by myself.

It is a very nice words/wording you wrote me here,Thanks so much. I'm always, from my art school years was open to listen to critique as I quite early realized, that its the way to develop. I like a lot , while getting critique or comments, that a dialogue is developing.This one was very important to me, not only because I photographed it ,but my statement as being a woman,and involved in women's projects and agenda.So it was interesting for me , and I was very glad about the dialogue, that gave me the possibility to upload a subject so important about women's repression , and their fight for getting the right attitude as equal human being, as well as the right place in society.It was important for me also to leave it in the dance world, which is the other side of life, and means creation , building , and beauty .It was a nice experiment, for me, Fred, and I really thank all the people that wrote their points of view, suggested alternatives , like Ton, you and all the others. I think I really gained and became richer .Thanks again for your nice part in it.

I prefer the original. I like the lightness it has in comparison to the reworked one. It feels a bit more open and a bit more natural to me... maybe that's because I saw it first who knows. Either way, great photo and great idea - Lex

Thanks for coming again, and expressing your point of view, as well as being a part in that interesting discussion.