Speaker's Corner, London

An important difference we all share between Tony and HCB is that we are still alive (well, most of us) and can continue to make photographs. HCB is not, so we can criticize his photos as much as we want and A) he can't disagree with us, B) he can't retaliate with a low rating and C)we can copy his photographs and his style as much as we want, over and over, until we get it right, dammit, and that's a big, big difference. This is another word to the wise....

I have pondered this for a long time and am sure that it was part of the photograph: The tattered man between death and the good life, the rich folks too concerned with their riches to worry about the decisive moment they were entwined in, the young photographer capturing the moment. It is very sublime, and a good thing to meditate on.

HC-B is still alive...

His camera. I meant that his camera is dead. I haven't seen any of his photos posted here on photonet, so I just assumed the worst.

I do believe that this will go down as one of the greatest photos of all time. It stands on its own, without the necessity of comparison with any other work by any other photographer.

There's one thing I'm curious to know, if you don't mind me asking... Where has this picture been shown so far ? Was it published ? If so, where ? Exhibited in galleries ? Where ? Etc.

I believe that this picture is meant to last, to survive oour times. It is imo one of these images that belong as much to the future, as they belong to the past. I am hoping you have done wjat needed to be done to get the right peole to see it, so it will survive us... Have you ?

I agree with Marc's last comment. This is exactly what I meant when I said in my earlier post "There is now, years after the the photo was taken, an appealing warm nostalgic effect which makes me wonder if this photo will gather increasing admiration in the coming years. I am sure it will. It is already fast becoming a 'classic' with a cult following", and I too would be interested in any past publications or exhibitions.

Off topic, but is your implication that the viewers of this photo are not the "right people"? And are you assuming that it might get more exposure in a gallery or a book than it gets here (183,000+ viewings currently)?

Don't worry Marc. I purchased a print of this over a year ago and it will soon be displayed in the most prestigious photographic gallery in the world.

 

Hello Geraldine! How are you, my darling? I did indeed survive the darkroom poisoning but have had to endure lengthy rehabilitation.

Never exhibited. Never published. My photography has been a private conceit for over thirty years.

 

One of the reasons I put up my pictures here (January last year), in public for the first time, was to see if they were any good by external standards. Hence the slightly "provocative" title of the portfolio. I deliberately left myself no retreat. I was after truthful criticism, not massaged feelings.

 

I sometimes wonder whether I should have continued my "career" in photography instead of studying law and fine art in the 70s (driving taxis to make ends meet), and then becoming involved in broadcast television and audio electronics in the 80s, finishing up in video surveillance electronic design and manufacture from the 90s to date (being a spook, dabbling in other peoples' affairs comes naturally to me, you see).

 

I hope none of my clients and customers read this (then again, they may have already guessed, it's been no secret), but my heart is not really in what I do for a living. My heart is out there photographing the world and the people in it. However, it's truly difficult to make a living out of photography (especially my kind of photography), or even a stipend to augment more mundane income generating activities.

 

There have been a few prints sold of this and other images, several offers made for exhibitions over the years (some of them in surprisingly prestigious galleries), but for one reason or another nothing came of them, or I chickened out... too scared to take the plunge. It's not an unusual story, I'm sure. A calculation that pains me to make is the one where I work out how many pictures of good quality I'd have now in my portfolio if I'd stuck at photography for thirty years, instead of looking for the secure lifestyle (which, to tell the truth, has never really been all that secure). There would be hundreds, if not thousands. Sometime I think it's laziness that has got in the way. Other times I attribute my lack of productivity to insecurity. I often fantasise about cashing in the house, the cars and the expensive accoutrements of modern living and gathering together enough finance to try for two years. I'd either be broke at the end of that time (and perhaps the subject of a photo like this one) or... or... where? There's only one way to find out, but life gets in the way.

 

This is about an honest an answer I can give, although it hurts when I read it.

Honesty pays, Tony. Go ahead and jump in. You'll never be happier than when you're struggling at doing what you love, rather than struggling trying to get to what you love. WooHooo! Yes. You can do it.

 

Vuk, I'll give you $30 (US) for that print. You pay the shipping, though and let's make it twenty as times are very tight.

I was interested in publications so I could check out my local book store if this shot was included anywhere. Exhibitions, although great for exposure, are obviously not as lasting but I was curious nevertheless. I was also interested in the life history of this photograph, as it seems to have taken a life of it's own (a bit like Clifford - but of course not that much). Now it looks like I may have to order a print. If Vuk has one then I want one too (Hello Vuk - glad you survived your ordeal... and that you can still type!).

Tony thanks so much for your honesty, particularly in light of your last words on that comment. I can understand looking back and wondering if you might have fared well in photography if you took this path or that, but it's not like you never picked up a camera again. Exhibitions aren't my cup of tea to be totally truthful. All the framing, expense, and all those luvvies walking round with cocktails on opening night dissecting every detail of your work! Publishing collections is a real possibility however, and one you shouldn't overlook. I recently bought a book with a collection of Jorg Grundler's work included and it's great! I can look at more than one of his prints any time I like, and best of all it is a recorded in history for all time and accessible to anyone! That's no advert I assure you (AAPPL Yearbook Vol 68), but an example to encourage you that it is within your grasp if you so wished. I'm sure there are plenty of publishers that would jump at the opportunity. It's never too late!

Vuk said "it will soon be displayed in the most prestigious photographic gallery in the world". Come on Vuk, care to explain?

I can't really add to my previous comment on this picture, exceptperhaps to say that every time I look at it, I'm still quite unpreparedfor the effect it has. The "man of many coats and newspapers" makesa powerful, indeed Shakespearean figure, enhanced as he is by the smirksof the onlookers. The picture explains the meaning of the word "poignancy"better than any dictionary.

 

The nature of Speakers' Corner isn't quite as simple as one mightbelieve: I've been there countless times, having spent the firsttwenty years of my life about a mile from that spot. There is anelement of theatre, and even comic theatre in which the protagonistsare often willing participants. Many of the Speakers fully expect tobe lambasted, and take it in good humour. This has the effect ofgenerating an atmosphere of mirth that I think may have persistedwhen this particular gentleman was doing his piece, and which mightexplain a small part of the spectators' demeanour.

Come on Vuk, care to explain?"-- Geraldine Allen

 

It's all been explained to Tony and I leave it in his hands to disclose in public what he feels comfortable with.

 

BTW--shouldn't you be in bed young lady?

" Is your implication that the viewers of this photo are not the "right people"? And are you assuming that it might get more exposure in a gallery or a book than it gets here (183,000+ viewings currently)?" Bill Hocker.Well, yes and no, Bill. It is indeed great to see one of Tony's best images on the frontpage of Photo.net, and certainly, that has meant a lot of viewers... But what did I mean by "right people" ? I left it vague, because I thought it was clear. Yet, my English isn't all that great yet, so maybe it wasn't. The "right people" are the people who can make things happen. As far as photography goes, we are talking about art critiques, gallery owners, publishers, etc.

My question has a simple explanation, which is directly connected with Tony's last post. I was still a student when I decided to drop everything to become "a pro". I had no money and knew nothing at all. 2 to 3 years later, I was starting to sell pictures - and I still knew NOTHING. 15 years later, I feel I know almost NOTHING - compared to Tony at least...

So, I always felt that something wasn't right if Tony wasn't earning a living with his camera. Apparently, that's what Tony's post confirms now.

The way I saw photography personally since I was 20 or so was that one needed to sell pictures in order to buy more time and films, to shoot more pictures - etc. If there is one thing I know about photography, it's just that - how to solve the cash problems... I'v spent 15 years solving cash flow problems...:-)) So, I just thought I would try to tell Tony in a quiet way, that it was more than time for him to go out and show his stuff. It's master stuff, not 3rd class photography, and it CAN NOT not be saleable...

To me, the simple fact that the greatest recognition Tony ever got about this picture was to be picked by a single (drunk ?) Elf, is a real nightmare... 30 years in a drawer ! What a waste !!

If Tony he had made the money, he would be out there shooting more masterpieces... And all I can say, is that I would really like to see that happen... If Vuk has something planned, no matter what, go for it, Tony !

If I may, I would like to add one little off-topic for younger people who would be right now hesitating whether to try to be pros or not. Without knowing who you are, I say " JUMP !"... Your pictures are just so-so...? Well shoot some film fora year and decide that next year you'll be a pro !! Don't wait until life gets in the way ! Be sure that you will be poor along the way, but be sure it won't matter either...

In my ideal world, people like Tony MUST be earning a living with their camera. Not CAN. MUST.

Well said, Marc. You're a shining example to us all.

Bill said "are you assuming that it might get more exposure in a gallery or a book than it gets here (183,000+ viewings currently)?"

Apart from exposure to 'the right people' which Marc explains might benefit Tony, the other important factor is that publishing and exhibitions offer the viewer the benefit of full detail and quality that a hard copy print provides.

A lot of people wonder how this photograph could have been captured or what motivates and inspires the photographer.

 

After much thought on the subject, I have concluded that Tony is simply drawn to subjects possessing strong odors. It's just that simple. He has been holding back on his collection of road kill photos out of embarrassment. Its a strange fetish but every great artist must have a (strong) source of inspiration. Well, I admire him anyway for the many catch phrases he has coined here on photo.net

Talent is obviously not in question here; it's more to do with

a feeling of exclusive commitment. Long ago I was given advice by a distinguished

teacher: "If you feel that you can't possibly do anything other than xxxx, then

by all means, but otherwise no." Tony's situation is made difficult by the fact

that he is so good at so many diverse activities - indeed, he's very much better at electronic

wizardry and subtle programming than he'd have us believe. However, Tony, perhaps you

should note the following: Leopold Godowsky Jr. combined a career as a concert violinist with pioneering

work in the development of Kodachrome, and Henryk Szeryng, one of the great violinists of

the last century, pursued a parallel career as a diplomat. Also, Rachmaninov started his

extraordinary pianistic career at around your age (to pay the bills, apparently.)

Erwitt : "It's about time we started to take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby".

 

While I (we all) truly grieve with you at your missed oppurtunites and more importantly, missed masterpieces that didn't come to be, if it's any consolation, atleast you've had the oppurtunity to function unfettered and unrestrained from the dicates of the mighty dollar and the very many obstacles and pressures one faces when making a photo for making money. Perhaps this "freedom" was a crucial ingredient to your flair and your classics.

But, honestly, it's still not too late. You know you're special.

I've asked the bookstore in my town empty the front aisle for you.

This is an excellent POW - so much so that it has forced me to make my first post - the entire picture shows a slice of life and has so many interesting nuances to it that each time you look you see something more. Seeing this photo prompted me to view the rest of the portfolio and after initially being depressed at the excellent pictures (yes Mr. Dummett you are indeed an artist) it has now inspired me to start taking photographs again (i have had a break of 7 years).. so very well done Mr. Dummett and hopefully at some stage you will have yet a third POW

Hey, don't forget to send us post cards!

Thanks everyone for your warm encouragement, erudite commentaries and multiple (failed) attempts to insert Clifford into my masterpiece. And thanks also to The Tramp, The Smiling Banker and the Guffawing Israeli (at least that's I've always thought he was), The Stunned Chinese, The German, The Lady In The Rabbit Fur, The Peering Boy, The Accusing Swede and the Casual Yank, looking from afar at this strange group of people, thinking, "Gaarrrd! There's a helluva a stink 'round here somewhere...". That one split-second of your lives has been done to death: your motives analysed, your actions criticised, your laughter derided and any lessons you may have learned speculated upon to the Nth degree. You never thought you were that interesting, did you? Each of you moving in separate directions, to separate destinations, with separate inspirations... you came together for a moment in time and gave us here, twenty-seven years later in 2002, something to ponder. You forgot about that moment within seconds, but we - your audience - will explore and re-explore the whys and the wherefores for years to come, perhaps one day to know them (and ourselves) for the first time.

 

I live and work in China. My home computer, a laptop, was stolen during a break-in at my home, so I have to use the office computer to get my fix of Photo.net. I sneak it in between my "real" work; don't tell the boss. This is usually done in a hurried fashion as my schedule allows. In this case, I wish I had taken, or made, more time to read all the critiques, and to study the picture more carefully.

 

For the record, I am definitely not against candid or street photography. I do a lot of it here in China. Personally, I like people to pose for my shots, and I always ask permission. In my experience, only one person has ever refused, they love to have their pictures taken (especially by a foreigner!).

 

Tony made a good point, in that people in London, at Speaker's Corner, are there to be seen, so what's wrong with seeing them? I agree. Nothing wrong with that at all. I was only making the point (now beaten to death)of contrasting the assumed arrogance of the well-to-do with the assumed pathos of the bum, while ignoring the ethical role of the man in the middle, the photographer.

 

Has anyone been to the Burning Man festival, in the Black Rock desert of Nevada? Surely you've seen something about this. Talk about spectacle! It's a place where there are no formal rules of conduct, but a few un-written ones. One is that everyone ought to be a participant in some way, and not a spectator. Any kind of outrageous attire or conduct is ok, as long as you don't interfere with someone else. Lots of photographs are being snapped by everyone, but somehow it's participatory but not voyeuristic. I'm not sure what the fine line is, but people can somehow sniff it out. I saw one man "outed" before. He was there just to take photos of the nude and semi-nude girls (maybe for the Internet?), and you could feel it. Everyone berated him, and he skulked off. He was obviously not there to participate in the emotion, but to steal it. So I was just raising this as a general issue - but people have already addressed it and disposed of it thoroughly.