color There Are More Things in Heaven and Earth

... great discussions going on with Fred leading the charge :) A couple of observations. Pnina was comparing and contrasting painting with photography and you responded with your statement about the blank canvas (horribly intimidating). I think that this is why people denigrate photography sometime ... there is no longer an apparent barrier to entry (at least now with the cameras readily available on the market). In the beginning, there was a huge barrier of equipment and knowledge.

 

In all other arts there is a physical barrier. The dancer must torture the body, the painter must learn to free the hand completely and after that understand the medium of color on some blank surface. The same with sculptors, musicians. Composers must learn a new language and learn to think in that language. Writers, perhaps, have the least barrier, along with photography and acting, which is probably why so many people consider themselves writers, photographers and actors.

 

Perhaps there is only a barrier to excellence, that same barrier that is to be found in all arts. How do we marry the thoughts of the mind to the feelings of the heart and the instincts of our senses? What is the difference between a fine photograph and art? The work of art is something that transcends the instrument used to convey the message. The work of art does so because it communicates something at a deep level, whether intentional or not, in a way that reveals the onlooker to himself or herself. It never works for all people and never ever works for all people at all time. In fact, art devalues itself when it claims to. Nobody really sees the Mona Lisa anymore. The painting has lost its ability to reveal ourselves to ourselves. It is merely a logo.

 

Okay, that's my rant. It's your fault, Jeff. Something in your plausibly implausible image has struck a chord here.

I thought Fred was a shit stirrer!

 

I really like your appraisal of how the different art disciplines differ and possible reasons for their status. That is a very interesting perspective taking off on Jeff's blank canvas fear.

 

Although, those perceptions are more likely held by ones not practicing those disciplines. For instance those whom have never sat about writing do not know the challenges and "barriers" one faces. I don't draw any longer so I don't have to deal with blank canvas syndrome, however, photography presents a form of blank canvas syndrome in that taking a blank memory card and making an image is intimidating to me. Others may not have this problem, but it is an intimidating barrier to me in trying to capture or make an image out of something unseen such as feelings, concerns, and observations that will convey that to others not present when it was created.

 

The last few mornings, I've stopped by a tent city under the interstate to pass out excess blankets and clothing I found around the house. There is a very profound story to be told here with 50 or more tents on cement and cars passing by and people walking on their way to work. I asked a few of the guys I was talking to if they minded me taking some pictures of their tents with cars passing by and they welcomed me to their area. Well, talk about blank canvas! All of a sudden there is this huge blank canvas in front of me - intimidation would be a mild way to describe how I felt; I was nervous, felt a little odd, and my mind went blank (which is usually good but not this time). I only took twelve pictures and they are crap...

 

Glad you joined the dialog Dennis.

 

Kirk

... it's just that with photography, writing, and acting there is no apparent barrier to entry. I can just sit down and write. I can just pick up a camera and shoot. I can start declaiming Shakespeare. Ah, Kirk, but to do it well ... as you just stated, there are barriers and there are barriers :)

 

The simple fact of the matter is that in anything I've done professionally ... stage directing, film directing, writing, software development, or even now, running a marine science consulting firm ... if I would have had any idea of how difficult it truly was, I probably never would have done it in the first place. It is only our pursuit of bliss that enables us to surmount those barriers that we don't see. What do the Japanese call it? The "Gateless Barrier".

 

Frankly, I've been taught ... and completely believe ... that art without resistance is impossible. It thrives when circumscribed by limitations.

interesting observation about barriers and Kirk's confirmation with an example... I think that both of you are very right. There are barriers to overcome in all fields of creations !

 

When I go shooting a subject , any subject, but dance as one example.Dance show takes at least 20 minutes , I face a lot of decision that has to be taken fast,and questions asked and need fast answers, what is the movement I want to photo, which one is touching me really, my interpretation of a movement, how to build a composition what is the best stage light to be taken, and it is not only with dance. Pushing the shutter is easy, but what have to be taken into account before that..... what do one want to say with a photo taken, thinking process, post processing decision, which technic will give the best results one want to acieve?. I write as well, it is very hard Dennis and Kirk, to build a sentence that will be genuine in its expression, what words will express my thoughts etc.

 

So Jeff feels that photography is easier for him, I see the "blank page " to overcome in every mode of creation, if an artist wants a meaning and value of what he does.

Dennis

"art without resistance is impossible. It thrives when circumscribed by limitations."

What an eloquently-stated and important statement. Bravo! While I always keep in mind that art has limitless possibilities, I do think one can get lost when wandering around infinity and not occasionally being influenced by the finite and even mundane world. Working within confines, working to surpass barriers, and working with no sense of any of that can all be incredibly moving.

we wrote simultaneously, and I think that we are on the same wavelenght...

Fred, you know, I was struck by that same statement Dennis made as well. I couldn't elaborate on it as you did but I did find it profound.

 

Pnina, good additions to the discussion.

 

Dennis, as I said above to Fred, that statement was profound to me and yes, eloquent too. Your examples of your various fields and hurdles is interesting and food for thought.

 

Kirk

I just wanted to clarify so there's no misunderstanding. I said that photography in some ways is an easier path, not that it's easier. I find that putting my eye to the viewfinder and using the frame to organize existing elements is easier than staring at a blank canvas. However, from there, the process is the same regarding the creative process. I don't in any way want to denigrate photography as a lesser art form.

 

 

Apart from that minor clarification, your thoughts ring very true regarding art, creation, and self expression.

...and the last embers start to lose their glow, there's a crackle and the flames kick up again. I'm virtually brain dead from today's activities, so I have nothing lucid to say other than it's nice to be sitting around the fire with you all.

I understood your point very well, but for me when I go shooting, the FEELING of "blank page" is present from the start....

 

I think we understand each other very well. Thanks you Jeff, I enjoy your company " around the fire" ( and in my work) as well.

... Pnina, your description of the barriers in photographing dance is right on the money. Your shot "Life as a dance" is so perfect, there was only one light, a down spotlight and you had to be in exactly the right place in exactly the right time in order to get the only possible shot. Nobody with a camera could have expected to get that right just because they were there.

 

Fred, when I was in theater in my early days, it was remarkable how many phenomenal plays and productions were coming out of the Eastern Bloc, from South America, from Africa. From France came the luminous work of Ariane Mnouchkine and the Theatre du Soleil. My Roumanian directing teacher Radu Penciulescu put it in perspective. First, his statement was "Feh ... ideas you buy in supermarket. It is defending ideas on the stage that matters." His second, more specific to our topic, concerned a world outside the US where life was difficult, where thought was restricted. In such a world, he said, "Nothing is pink." Ideas, suppressed, found an artistic expression.

 

Our ideas must clash. One more story. I was directing the Greek tragedy "The Bacchae". The composer, Joe Seserko, was wonderful, and we met over and over to discuss. I told him how the play was about revels, and wild belief, and fanaticism. He agreed and described a score that was minutely controlled. I argued and said that we need chaos, and he came back with more precise. Finally I challenged him, insisted on chaos ... his calm response set me on my ass, "Dennis, there is no perceptual difference between absolute order and absolute chaos." This understanding, this limitation imposed by Joseph, ratcheted my work up a couple of notches.

 

So, in photography my limitations are self-imposed. I want to pay absolute tribute to the builders of the churches I photograph. To subordinate my own needs to demonstrate what they accomplished, to illuminate their genius. In the course of doing so, if my own work has value, that is good, but it is still subordinate to the objective. That keeps me on the straight and narrow. Outside of those bounds, I am just another photographer looking for something to shoot. Inside, I am inspired, energized.

Very impressive and artistic composition Jeff.

Wow....I wish I had done this......

 

Congratulations

To get in on this REAAAL late, I see both what Jeff and pnina are saying. Photography is both easier and more difficult at the same time than painting. I learned to draw, etch and paint, and have done several more "traditional" art pieces. Photography, however, is a tad different in many ways. The process is more urgent, more matter of fact, and more "what you see is what you get". This argument of photography v. art raged on at the turn of the last century with the likes of Alfred Stieglitz, Ansel Adams, and Edward Weston, who ultimately formed a group dedicated to "pure" photography, which celebrated stark lighting, hard contrasts, and eschewed any romantic soft-focus that was in vogue in the late 19th century.

 

My own photographic vision leans more toward Fred's and I do have some "issues" with this image, but I also respect the time and effort that went into making it. As to Jeff's comments about photography being "easier", and pnina's point about dance, I totally agree with both, hard as it is to fathom. I think it's easier to photograph the Belvedere torso than to sculpt the Belvedere torso. I think it taks more effort to paint the Sistine Chapel than to photograph it. That said, does that mean photographing the Sistine Chapel is "easy"? Hardly. You face problems Michaelangelo never faced, lack of light, how to flood the place with enough light to illuminate the figures, yet retain enough of the darkness to maintain the mood Michaelangelo intended.

 

At the end of the process, the photographer might end up with a hunchback like old Buanarotti, poetic justice, if you will.

Very original and very cool, and very well done....and congratulations for striking up one of the longest conversations between folks I've seen in a while.

Nice work Jeff. Glad you found something to do with that billboard....it gave Fred something to talk about!! Just kdding Fred!

J

 

Jeff, my finger cramped up while scrolling down to the bottom of your list of comments. You are always stirring things up, making people think. I caught a glilmpse of one of the comments saying that you are an artist, and I agree. This is wonderful, very striking, interesting, and orginal. You really do have a gift.

Without any doubt its wonderful shot. The colorplay and the light effect is fantastic to me. Exceptional work.

Laurent L: Somehow in the bustle of the week, I forgot to thank you for your comment. I think you encapsulated in your comment the visual goal I had in mind.

 

 

Michael: Thanks always for your thoughts.

 

 

Sorin: You have many, many photos in your portfolio of which I feel the same.

 

 

Emmanuel: I liked your explanation of the difference in making various types of art versus taking pictures of that same said art. There are different processes afoot, but the spark that drives capturing something "out there" is the same. Regarding one's preference for subject matter and technique, truly to each his own. Each of us are moved and inspired by different things in the world, and I'm always taken with what other people choose to photograph. Sometimes I find others' work deeply moving, while at other times what someone finds fascinating does absolutely nothing for me. Like you, I find it important to divorce my personal investment or interest in a subject from my appreciation of the work that went into it and a recognition of the artist's passion. Thanks for your always erudite comments.

 

 

Janis: I think any time Fred arrives on the scene, conversation picks up. I don't think this photo necessarily caused the debate, but merely existed in the vicinity--kind of like blaming the onion dip as the instigator for a heated debate at a party. Thanks so much for your thoughts.

 

 

Linda: Thanks so much for a wonderful comment. I always appreciate your thoughts.

 

 

Kaushik: Thanks for liking this shot. I'm glad you found it interesting.

 

 

The rest of y'all: Thanks for such a lively discussion, which got me thinking about all sorts of philosophical, practical, and existential issues.

Jeff, you get inspiration from Heaven & Earth. Like this image very much.

... her first comment was "It takes an artist to see the possibility in this" which was reinforced when I showed her the original shot. Her next comment was "I would love to see that printed large on watercolor paper!" You have another fan.

Contradictio in terminis. Ciao, Alx

A.K.: I thank you. And Hamlet thanks you.

 

 

Dennis: Tell PJ thanks immensely for such a nice review. I took her good advice and printed it on watercolor paper. It ain't half bad.

 

 

Alex: Thanks. There's always more to the story.

Gee, another such image that makes me feel speechless... As many others have stated, this is such a thought raiser. :-) I just like this one a lot. As you mentioned in some comment, this doesn`t raise any special need to find the main subject, more like this raises abstract and strong emotions. Something wailing in between of warm and half safe moment in time and place vs. "did somebody drop a crazy-pill into my mug?" No, really, this is very intriquing creation. My warmest congratulations, once again!

 

Alpo

Jeff,I'm amazed by your creative talent, your eloquence, and the discussion this image has inspired. When I have a week I'll read all the comments !!! and analyze why this image is so provocative. I'm pretty simple- I respond to emotional appeal and since this reminds me of a barn and I love barns I LOVE IT. A big thank you for seeing Wyeth in my barn photo. I'm living in Ottawa for a year and am in awe of the beauty of Ontario barns. Cheers.

Very nice, creative and captivating! Congrats Katherine