screaming camel stuck in river

Right, just your average camel-stuck-in-the-mud snapshot. What incredibly silly commentary; what an incredibly good shot. As for those who say that we would not know what it is if the caption didn't tell, I can only ask: how often do you come up on a camel stuck in the mud?

Robert has other shots that say 'camel stuck in mud' more effectively than this one which is clearly about the interaction between subject and photographer. Show this image to someone - while covering up the title, please - and ask them to tell you what it's about.

Carl, your point is true: I showed it to my 12 year old child and she suggested: "people caught killing camels."

 

But this whole picture stands alone argument is misguided. I'm no art historian, but isn't this the Form over Content,Ccontent over Form jag? Modernism versus Post Modernism?

 

What about the picture of the sailor kissing the woman on VJ day, (or VE day) in NYC, taken at the end of WWII? Is that a complete summation of the story? The american soldier returning from Vietnam, his daughter and family rushing to meet him: Does that tell the whole story without any caption, or context? Tony Dummett's bum on speaker's corner that was POW back in Nov/Dec 2002: Did it tell the whole story? Or just part of it?

 

No. Photojournalism augments text, text augments photojournalism. I don't think there are any photography books, photojournalism, or otherwise, that don't have some context support via text, be it title, caption, or essay.

 

Why should photography be required to "stand alone?"

 

Bull!

Nothing bothers me more than someone talking about the morals or responsibilities that a photographer has to abide by when pressing the shutter. Every time I see one of these comments, I picture the photographer transforming into a Hong Kong Phooey-like character and taking out his Hong Kong Book of Kung Fu book in order to read the what to do if you have a camera on hand and a bunch of camels get stuck in a river chapter. A second thing that bugs me more is that most of these critique artists are usually uninformed. Some people are (or were) under the impression that the camel owner and the photographer were the only two people there; however, one quick look at the rest of the folder demonstrates that there was at least 12 other adults present at one time, so that dispels the cruel, callous and insensitive photographer idea or accusation. These other 12 people can be seen in the photo # 584396 which, by the way, someone suggested earlier (and I whole heartedly agree) is a far better shot. In the photo chosen as POW the man seems to be giving his camel a nice refreshing bath in the river after a long hot trip through the desert, in the alternate photo you can see the travail and the drama unfolding.

Excellent camel photos! And Im not saying that because of the camels, but because you caught a unique moment in the life of these herdsmen. Although I believe the chosen piece, as good as it may be, is poor in comparison to the one mentioned above.

Lemme tell ya, it's tough to post a comment on a POW after everyone else has already had their say. I find myself responding to the ideas that have been posted, not to the image itself. First though, my impressions of the image:

Technically, there's nothing about this photo I would change. Though the image has a great contrast, I can see details even in the brightest and darkest areas; the composition puts my focus first on the frustrated man, and his arms and hands are the lines in the shot that draw my eyes to the camel. His expression seems to me one of mere frustration. The caption is interesting as well. I didn't know camels screamed. And look at the sky, man!

Soooo... Let's talk some about some ideas.

Snapshot? Obviously not. Ethics? Debate on. Confusing? Absolutely! Without the caption, I'd have no idea what's going on. But, my favorite images are those that make the viewer take a second look. (Unfortunately, in my case that only revealed an unsightly bit of rear end cleavage to the right of the shoulder. Decisive moment...) I totally agree that with respect to PJ, text and image are mutually dependent. Posed? So what if the elves were mistaken about how much/little time he had to take the shot? I think he still managed to capture the essence (reality and emotion) of what was happening. So what if his hands are merely resting on the camel? Just how does one "rescue" a camel? I think the photo is more about the subjects emotions, maybe I'm wrong, and in that sense, the photographer did a wonderful job of capturing that, and showing the cause of his distress.

Great shot! I'm content to comment on the image itself.

Let's pretend that this was a photo you saw in the random photos and not the chosen POW. First thing I notice is the man's expression. Very expressive and emotive. Then I start looking at the stuck crying camel. I cannot tell that it is stuck, its eye is closed. The camel could be yawning and refusing to get up and go to work. Then I see the camel in the background to the right. It positively looks like it is enjoying the whole scene. This photo seems to have the man's face and forearms in focus, and that therefore puts those two background camels in focus. I wish there was more of a distinction between the background and the actual activity. I have a hard time deciding how much of that area is the man's clothes and what is background camel or trees. The bit of light on the man's forearm makes an unusual and confusing path of light. I think that whatever was causing that light and shadow pattern should be left in the photo. (I have not gone back to see the other photos, to try determine what was causing that, because I believe a photo SHOULD stand on its own. Bull! or camel dung, makes no difference to me, I believe it should stand on its own and not get stuck in the mud.)

 

Congrats on receiving the POW award, Robert. You have taken great good advantage of a situation few of us will ever see. Thanks for the photo, the story and all the great good discussion this one is going to engender.

This is not an "incredible photograph" , and of the historical photographers that come to mind it is most like Weegeee. Weegee, by the way is very collectable, if that makes anyone feel better.

You've missed my point, I think. No one here is saying that this or any photograph can or should tell the whole story. There were many stories to tell at this time and place. Contrary to the title or elves's assertions, this photograph is not about a camel, but primarily about it's owner and his momentary interaction with the photographer. I suspect this was selcted as POW because of the facial expression and tonal range of the photograph, neither of which are present in any of the other images on the roll.

 

If the entire roll was submitted to a newspaper or magazine along with a story that described the event, I doubt this would have been the single shot selected, despite it's aesthetic qualities.

 

My wife thought the camel was being washed.

he did makes a smart composition.

The reason that we cannot immediately figure out what is going on here is that the idea of camels being stuck in the mud is not within our frame of reference. In a case such as this it is more than a bit fatuous to say that a photo must stand on its own. It requires some explanation, or at least a caption, precisely because it is totally outside our frame of reference. That does not detract from its value as a documentary shot. For example, what about the picture of the children running from a napalm bombing in Vietnam? Without knowledge that those injuries were received in war (which someone had to tell us, or which we had to infer because we knew about the war), the photo would have lost much of its power. Context is everything in terms of understanding the full significance of a documentary photograph, and either we must be familiar with the context and the situation, or else someone must inform us. This photo as a documentary photo is not in the least deficient because of our ignorance of background settings and circumstances. The lack in such a case is within ourselves, not with the photograph, and thank goodness that someone (in this case the photographer) is there to tell us what the context was. This is a poignant and powerful photo, but only if one knows what is happening, and knows as well the cultural context within which the loss of a camel is a tragedy not only for the camel but for the poor family which needs it for its survival. Documentary photos and photojournalism are closely intertwined: we need the reporting, however brief it might be, in order to appreciate or even interpret the photo. The folder provides some context, but in this case we need some words, some reporting, to flesh outo the full context.

Joe,

 

Thanks for pointing out the "moon". Definitely gives the shot an added dimension.

 

Bill

Every time I see this image I am struck by its stark emotion! What a wonderful image, well composed, well exposed, great tonality - and LOADED with emotion. I wouldn't hang it on my wall, but I would put it on the COVER of National Geographic. Well done, Elves!

That's excellent work. Taking the shot under stress and post- shot work. The pats on the back are plentiful so, i'll just say what bugs me a little. Too much white. His finger nails look like the purest form of chalk ever made. The whites of his eyes are brighter than the sun. His teeth look like he just got back from laser whitening. But, if that's the drawback...that's not much at all. Really nice job all around. I'm excited to see the rest of the portfolio.

The issue is not whether or not an image requires or would in some way

benefit from further explanation, but rather whether or not the

primary focus of the image is clear. The soldier kissing the girl,

family coming to greet dad in uniform off the plane, the naked napalm

girl are all unambiguous, even if the story each tells is not

complete, as it can never be. None of these examples falls within the

normal life experience of most of us, yet the composition of the

images are such that we are unlikely to miss the point that each

photographer hopes to convey. . . .

In a case such as this it is more than a bit fatuous to say that a photo must stand on its own. It requires some explanation, or at least a caption, precisely because it is totally outside our frame of reference.

Before you start singing us a lullaby about cantankerous camels, consider the shot #584396 in Robert's folder. This is one of the shots taken at the same time and of the same event. It clearly indicates what is happening. As a documentary PJ shot, it can stand on its own. The fact that we may not be familiar with the fact that camels get stuck in the mud occasionally, has no bearing on the actual occurrence and the photo of the occurrence. The photo is about the occurrence itself, not about what you know or don't know. You are free to form your own opinion from what the photo shows you. If I choose to think the photo shows the camel having a bath then that is what it means to me. Why would I take someone's word for what is happening, when the actual picture shows me something different? If someone showed you a picture of a red line and told you it was white, would that help you to observe what is in the picture?

I like this photo very much, the sstory in itself is very dramatic and strong.....i've thinked a lot if i like or not the face of the man looking in the camera, but i came back to the first impression: yes, cause it talks about the tragedy even without reading, and after all doesn't distract the attention from the scene, in my opinion...

 

regards..

I wasn't going to make any further remarks to this forum, but an interesting point was brought up, one of subjective vs. objective interpretation of art. One person might say that the REALITY of an image is what the artist envisioned, and that his task is to communicate his visualization through the execution of the photo. Another person might submit that the reality of the image is what the viewer percieves. In this case, I believe that the photographer saw frustration, and decided to depict that. Look at the man's face. He's pissed off. HE'S NOT WASHING A CAMEL! This image speaks pretty clearly to me.

Yes the image speaks very clearlybut only after we are told what is going on. How much better had it been if the guy was pulling on the camels head with a rope from outside the water! Had I not known the complete story I would have been clueless as to what the man is doing on top of a camel or what his expression communicates to me. For all I know the man is furious with the camel and is beating the crap out of it. I can hear the camel screamingplease master stop I wont do it again.

 

By the way, has anyone noticed the plumber to the left of this guy (hes got his left hand on the third camel from the frontor maybe thats a third guy)?

 

To those who insist that a POW should be judged independent of the rest of the folder, and that we should respect the Elves choice, I have only one thing to say. I totally agree that we should judge only the photo chosen, and I myself have, in times past, scolded some people who suggested other photos in the photographers folder as being superior. My reason for objecting to alternate photos is that they usually dont fall under the same category. But in this particular case, I think that we should be able to criticize the Elves choice on the grounds that there may be other more compelling photos within the same folder which FALL IN THE SAME CATEGORY and describe the event much more accurately. In this particular event we have plenty of other photos to choose from and these are not only in the same folder and in the same category, they are of the same event and may even be from the same roll of film. That being the case, I think that to make a comment or suggest an alternate photo from the folder is not only proper, it is called for.

Cant say that the picture as such does much for me :-( But I love the expression of the camel in the background. Sort of a smug "told you so" expression.

Photo journalism is, in my view, both the pinacle of the photographer's art (I did say MY opinion!) and the most difficult to execute well. It also, typically, should include several frames telling a story. What it should NOT do, again IMHO, is be obtrusive to the situation being documented. This shot, like so many of my own attempts for a documentary style, IS intrusive, and visibly so. That is where, sadly, it falls short. What's really recorded here is the relationship between subject and photographer, and not, as should have been intended, the relationship between man, beast, elements, and perhaps too the man's colleagues if they were there.

 

Technically, it's good. Compositionally, it's good. Emotionally, it grates.

 

C.

Sure this ain't a montage? Or can anybody explain why the camel is up to its shoulders in mud and the guy standing just inches away has dry, mudless ankles? Strange!

Cemal, thanks for your comment. It's something I deeply feel too, but it was unconscious and you made it clear to me :-)

It seems to me (from observing the camel's neck) that the man is pushing its head and neck down towards the water (and camera). The man seems to be partially sitting on the rump of the camel situated on his right. I've not had any experience pulling stuck camels but my reaction would be to try to dig around their legs - as the men in the background seem to be doing. So now I ask myself, is this man helping the camel to get unstuck or helping it to drink - or something else alltogether? He probably was most frustrated but the squint in his eyes may well be due to the glare of the sun. Am I the only person who sees in his mouth a trace of a grin? All in all there seems to be too much interaction with the photographer. I can't fully believe "that time was of the esence".

Having said that, I find the photo technically good and admire anyone who can shoot while standing on unstable (thixotropic ?) sediments.

A nicely captured moment. The composition is good, the lighting is good - strange actually: fill flash? - and the depth of field is excellent. It is quite weird and leads me to ask what was going on and why.

If you can take a Pulitzer Prize winning photograph of a man drowning, or attempt to save him...what speed film do you use? (you guys will argue over anything, won't you? :P )

 

When I looked at this picture, I was amazed by the tonal quality of the image. Definitely a PJ image to be proud of...whether or not I got the whole story from it is beside the point. I've looked at lots of images I haven't gotten the full story from, but have been amazed by them all the same.

 

Congratulations on getting a PoW.

 

Nick.