Ella, by Northern Light (B&W version)

Sorry that you seem to feel attacked on this photo...we as photographers get emotionaly attached to our work as most artists do...I complimented your efforts and the beautiful Ella...I never mentioned her perky breasts...I feel when one asks for feed back they have the right to get deffensive but maybe that causes people to just give poor ratings with out leaving a comment...people who post and expect to have their ratings explained might have better luck if they listen more instead of ranting about low ratings with out explainations...you seem pre-occupied with ratings...you are a good photographer wanting a system of poor quality to tell you weather your images are good or not...if you like them... then you did good...Don't let ratings get your dobber down...live by the rating die by the rating...this is jeeeeeez my opinion...Juan de Santa Anna

I muse about the rating system and the comments sometimes because it's my nature and the nature of the comments is that they often make suggestions to do what is on my next capture or they suggest a treatment that was an alternative to the way I did the contrast or brightness, as here.

 

I soon get over it, and it's water under the bridge.

 

When I practiced law, we often got very emotionally bound up in each case; but when a case was over, it was next case.

 

In this case, it's 'next photo!'

 

I did learn a great deal from the feedback on this one, -- some of it actually was constructive, and some was just in favor of treatments that were on other captures or other ways I might have 'brought out' the basic capture through use of basic tools such as shadow/highlight/contrast/brightness/curves/levels, and it's all a matter of choice, to which one must make a commitment when one posts and, one must defend one's choices to some extent or at least say 'that's what I did and if there is a justification, say so (and admit if there was none).

 

And for the person who said for a photo I posted that 'it should not have been taken' -- phooey, the human condition is to learn by honing skills by edging toward perfection through a series of major and/or minor errors/mistakes, even something so mundane as walking or driving. In fact, driving is a constant seriees of corrections from less than perfect directing the car and/or acceleration/braking, but the sum total is that when corrections are taken into account, learned through 'trial and error' (see that word -- error), one gets a smooth ride. That even applies to NASCAR, Indie, and Gran Prix racers -- it's all a series of trial and error. I am never ashamed to make an effort and to make a correction.

 

If someone treats me condescendingly or badly, as a few have done (not necessarily you), then I have a choice of accepting ill treatment or standing up for myself; I usually choose the latter if it appears important to me (at the time, and since the 'tone' of my comments section can be infected by one transgressor who is let to offend, I often will step in vigorously if there is a transgressor.

 

But generally I love good, fairly stated critiques, and my musings about the ratings system are just that -- musings. You might look at my bio page for the total number of comments I've received and look at my comments over time for the wonderful way I generally treat my commentors to see why so many seem to flock to my imagees -- certainly it's not the strength of the images themselves but instead the quality of the reception when someone comments.

 

Feel free to come by and comment whenever you have something constructive to add; the more the merrier.

 

Don't let vigorousness and occasional prickliness be mistaken for ill will or bad manners. Commentators with good manners are uniformly welcome here.

 

John (Crosley)

Hy John. As you say, this photo has engendered a large amount of comments, disproportionately so, but nevertheless in line with its content!

 

I don't know whether this is a good thing or a bad one. I am somewhat biased in that I indulge in this area of photography myself. I think the bad thing is that other equally worthy pictures do not always get the attention that they deserve, though if a photo is really good it will almost always reach top visibility without any problem. The good thing about photo net nevertheless is that it has allowed this genre to flourish and yet maintain certain standards which are not shared by any of the other photo sites that I know. This is a credit both to the membership of PN and those that monitor its content.

 

Now to return to your picture, it is overall very pleasing indeed. Moreover, you have succeeded the ultimate goal in glamour photography which is, as you imply, to flatter the subject beyond her natural attributions.

 

Personally, I would not place this picture in that category though, but more in that of an artistic nude, whose purpose it is to put the accent on the play of light and form, if anything to dramatize the image. As such, it works much better for me than as a glamour shot.

 

I would not necessarily equate beauty with the Playboy image that you say sets the standards for these girls. I have discovered beauty in women at all ages, and sometimes it goes well beyond the curvaceous forms that we see here. One may occasionally be able to render more attractive a particular subject through the way in which the picture is taken, and though it may be the case for the general structure of this subject's face, there is no need for that with the remainder of what we see. What one can only very rarely do however, if at all, is to simulate character, where there isn't any to begin with.

 

What you have done here is to capture a moment in this woman's life which is really quite poignant. The look is interesting and despite the shadows, if not because of them, one can read all kinds of things in her profile and demeanour.

 

Technically, what picture is perfect? This one has its high points, just as it has some weaknesses. Other are much more qualified than me to talk in this area. I certainly like the highlights and may even have been tempted to leave them on parts of the thorax and brow, where some effort may or may not have been made to mellow their effect.

 

Altogether, an interesting shot which caught attention and brought on this onslaught.

 

My very best wishes to you,

John

 

As I prepare to leave your fair city, I have noted your nice comment, and make a few notes about it and this photo in general.

 

This is indeed one of those circumstances where, in my own opinion, in part because the woman was young and attractive enough (and slender enough) that my photography was able to play a synergistic role; to make the parts somewhat greater than the whole, I think.

 

Indeed, she was no great beauty (and contrary to comments above, I recall she was looking rightward with her eyes, and they are not 'vacant' as contended), but she was attractive enough -- maybe a 6 on a 10 scale but with a fine figure for a short girl.

 

But I did find nice features, and after photographing her 'her' way, which is to say, somewhat as she expected, in a more 'glamorous' way, I prevailed on her to photograph her 'my' way. (she had suggested, that, perhaps I pose her with a banana, to which I predictably responded 'quelle horreure'--I simply told her that's not what I do. --People in Dnepropetrovsk don't have enough money for real 'female toys' anyway, I've found, 100% true, based on stories I've been told and real experiences based on 'requests' from friends-- but I don't pose with such things or in that way, or if I were to do so, it would be much more blatant than just 'holding' a banana and looking sensual . . . if you get my drift . . . something that may have floated when I was in the '50s Rexall drug store as a single-digit age young kid looking at girlie magazines strewn all over the floor (nobody cared about protecting the youth that became today's 'strict' parents and grandparents then).

 

Nowadays, things for the 'glamour' genre are much, much more explicit, and I have just been exploring that a little bit,

 

Ella, here, did like my work enough to send me her friend, a lanky blonde woman, just prior to participating in the Miss Bikini contest (presumably for all Ukraine) and based on things I think she learned posing, she scored second runner up (she also was not really much of a looker, nobody you'd turn your head to look at if she passed on the street, but also a good figure, and a so-so face, good enough but not wonderful, but then bikinis are about good figures.

 

When Ella returned, to sign a release, she demanded copies of her photographs, and arrived without an appointment, and was angry at sleepy me (she woke me up in midday), for not being able to copy all the photos onto my one available blank DVD. She also revealed she had TWO boyfriends, neither of whom knew about the other.

 

That's just the kind of person she is; not the sort of person I'd want as my best friend.

 

On the contrary, I had dinner while I was there with young Katya, then 17, just to 'catch up' at my house and she 'wowed' the babushkas there -- she's a blooming true 'Woman' of class and beauty, and I hope to 'shoot' her again and again as she turns (she just turned) 18.

 

I also dined with Yevgenia, seen nude, who's in 'glamour' shots here in my folders, but she truly is a head turner. She has declined to model further for the present; she's snagged a very generous, older and slightly jealous boyfriend. Asked about her looks, she says they're 'perfect' in matter-of-fact Russian. And she's right -- she got hair extensions and she's a woman who turns every-one's head, men and women. The little secret, of course, is that women do as much looking as men, but they're simply 'evaluating', or so they say. Truth be told, I think that women simply like women (and) men more than men like men and women (using the same paradigm, or that's just me about myself and I'm wrong).

 

This was a shot that pleased me; a study, as you correctly note, in light and shadow, and Ella was not so thrilled either at doing it or with the results, but it's quite successful from my point of view. It also works in color, but it needed some extra color coordination to make it work better -- a stylist perhaps.

 

I often cross the line between 'street' and 'fine art', landscape and other genres with minutes in the same media when I'm out photographing, and I find that there are few such lines when photographing women dividing 'glamour' from 'fine art' except in one's approach. I remember the film 'Gia' where the photographer, after doing some fashion shooting, says to Gia, 'Now who'd like to make some ART?' speaking in capitals and promptly changes styles. He has models, the clothes are photographed for the magazine or advertisements and he's working for free with his discretion -- a place I think you often find yourself in, except if I understand it, your models come to you (envy, envy, envy).

 

And I can't afford such things as photo stylists; I just buy cameras, lenses, flashes and shoot.

 

I also pay models very little, which is why I shoot models in Ukraine. Maybe that'll change in the near future; I may try to turn pro, or at least get published with my better work. (think 'Black and White from then to Now' folder and some of my better color work, and any hints you have in that regard are solicited.

 

Maybe some day, John, our paths will cross. Maybe they already have in the past few days, as I've trudged the same streets you do, but you just didn't know it (though my portfolio may have shown it if you've perused it).

 

(I'm the rumpled guy, trudging along, overburdened by Nikons, with that seeming glazed look, hardly able to move, until, out of the corner of an eye, I 'see' some likely photographic happening or circumstance, then my cameras (and/or I) move like lightning ;-)) )

 

I'm always delighted to see that you've read my meanderings.

 

And delighted that you are as able a writer, critic, and thinker as you are a photographer.

 

John (Crosley)

Thanks John. Admittedly, I am just a little disappointed though to learn that you are in Paris and have not contacted me ... if it's not too late and you have the time for a drink, let me know ... I have just returned from NY incidentally, where I met and dined with two wonderful people from PN, Chris Niels and Jonathan Davis, as well dining also with Robert Farnham and his adorable wife in Paris just before my departure. Being such wonderful people and friends, I am sure they will not mind me mentioning their names.

John,

 

You are 'the most interesting guy' on Photo.net, and perhaps the most envied.

 

I am far from a presumptuous guy; a little timid it may seem despite my heroic efforts to prove otherwise, and maybe even as reflected in my photography or even in my personality. (Have I told you very much about me?)

 

In any case, it is way out of character for me to contact any Photo.net member except one with whom I have had a long-standing e-mail relationship or otherwise been 'close' to, as I know that many people dearly value their privacy, and when a person has been named 'the most interesting guy'

on a service like this, it certainly is presumptuous to make the first move until one actually has received an invitation.

 

But truly I would like to meet; though not this trip, for I have just returned to the U.S. and as the sun is on you midday Wednesday, I haven't had sleep yet my first day back.

 

And of course, because of your erudition alone, your acquaintanceship is something I look forward to making, but fear you may be disappointed with the more than slightly rumpled me (I'm kind of a fan of Rumpole of the Bailey, by Sir John Mortimer, for maybe just such reasons -- it's hard to be a 'street photographer' and go about impeccably dressed, with two and three cameras with huge lenses -- not Leicas -- hanging from one's neck and NOT have them ripping at one's clothes, and almost always looking somewhat disheveled, though for reasons that may have escaped you, winter is my ally.

 

Long coats provide perfect opportunities to hide lenses in long pockets and to cover those large cameras surreptitiously -- I have a London Fog jacket bought half-off in California's December, padded, when everybody thought icebergs were going to melt in a day, which I carried into Ukraine's nearly coldest winter in recent memory (the one which killed people across Eastern Europe, and even found me in Russia -- for Russian Christmas -- in minus 42 degree C cold).

 

And a long, black, coat, blends in with the Eastern Europeans, for whom black is NOT the favorite accessory color of some kinky rock band, but a way of life, partly because of the winter mud on their streets, constantly roiled by the salted streets, and the changing from snow to sleet to rain to snow to rain, all exacerbated by salted roads and sidewalks in major and regional cities, which would stain terribly anything lighter. Black is the color not only of rock bands, and 'cool' teenagers, but of Eastern European street pedestrians and metro riders.

 

So, winter hides my disheveled dress, when it's truly cold out, but a day like last Saturday or Sunday in Paris, (warm days) saw me looking my worst, and what a horror it might be to a trim guy like you to be seen with a guy like me, unless I put down my cameras and spiffied up more than a bit. (which I CAN

do.)

 

And I would like to do that.

 

I'll write you next time before I visit your fair city.

 

It's perhaps the most livable city in all the world -- the city of neighborhoods, each of which I've been discovering one by one, over the years. It's a pleasant task and now I have cameras to give it some challenge.

 

My best to you.

 

(And my admiration)

 

John (Crosley)