Antiwar Protest in U.C. Berkeley

First allow me to state that from both an asthetic and technical point, I like your photo. But the message diplayed on the banner is flawed.Having spent time in that part of the world, I know that the majority of the population of that area are illitirate and basically, a bunch of goat herding fucks whom are nursed on a flawed religon, that teaches zeolitism.They enjoy living in the third century, so lets's bomb them back!!!

 

All the best,

 

No friend of any orgainized relgion

Antiwar Protests in UC Berkeley. Photo was taken in color. I

desaturated it in photoshop and left the banner in color to emphasize

the message.

Since you modified the photo to emphasize the message, I must assume you are endorsing the message and inviting political comment.

 

Perhaps you and the pampered, spoiled children in the photo fail to recognize the irony that if these kids were mounting a protest in Afghanistan a few short months about about Taliban excesses, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT AND BURIED TOGETHER IN A SHALLOW GRAVE. God bless America.

hey Yee, seems like you touched a soft spot there.

dear elise o. you should be thrown out of photo.net for what you just said. i won't go into details as to what i think of you. or did a miss a joke somehow ? bless you for showing us who you are. didn't find any photos in your folders, never mind.

"Illitirate"! Love it! Lets's band together and crush zeolitism wherever it raises its ugly head!

Considering the sign is so huge it fills 50% of the frame, having it remain red seems a bit heavy handed. I don't really see an antiwar protest, either--I just see two people holding a really big sign (and even they look uninterested).

 

As an ironic statement, though, it's quite good. It shows a complete lack of emotion by those supposedly protesting. I've seen more outrage expressed at a church softball game . . .

Hello people.

 

This is the first time I've ever asked for comments regarding my photos and I must say that I'm overwhelmed by the response. Yes, I do endorse the message. Yes, I'm against the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan. However, I wasn't really looking for a discussion of the war when I posted this image up for critique. I was looking more for a critique of the photo, not of the protest. In any case, I appreciate the feedback and find it somewhat necessary to respond to what you guys have said.

 

Elise: I solemnly apologize. I can't bring myself low enough to respond to you.

 

Randall: The barbaric acts of the Taliban cannot be used as justification for America's tyranny. I do not pretend that the Taliban was a good or even legitimate government, but I'm not convinced that that gives America the right to start a war, destroying the lives of the innocent as much as that of the guilty.

 

Jo: Thanks for the sympathy. =)

 

Philip: Hahahaha, that's a good one. I hate zeolitism too! (if only I can figure out what it means)

 

Mike: Thanks for your comments. An astute observation. Actually, there was quite a bit more action and emotion during the protests. I just didn't do that good a job capturing it. If you look at my protests folder you might find a couple more pictures that show the situation a little better. There were also a bunch of pro-war protesters in the crowd. Berkeley is made up of a fractious crowd. *grin*

 

Anyway, I guess I still have a lot to learn about taking pictures. Thanks for all your comments.

The photo is almost perfect. It's an analogy of U.S. opinion on the war. The two kids holding the sign represent foolish Berkley. The kids around them aren't even paying attention. They represent the rest of the nation.

 

None of us in the rest of the U.S. care what Berkley has to say any more. Berkley has become so absurd that it is irrelevant. If we pay any heed to Berkley's antics, it's to laugh at them.

 

The photo's not perfect though. The protesters and their sign should have been desaturated. The rest left in color. Then the analogy would have been perfect. The real world vs. the distorted world of Berkley.

 

Here's to the U.S. armed forces that do such a good job of protecting our freedoms that kids in Berkley haven't the faintest clue what the word "tyranny" means.

First of all, if you're going to criticize someone's spelling, learn to spell for yourself. It's "zealotism," not "zealitism."

 

Secondly, I'm fairly hawkish these days, living about twenty blocks above the World Trade Center and enduring the most painful past four months that I can remember. I also do not agree with the message in the students' sign, but you know what? I'll defend their right to say whatever they want.

 

Sure, my first reaction might be "love it or leave it," but what makes this country great is tolerance and freedom of speech. They're allowed to say whatever they want, just as *our* fanatical religious right can say what they want and our fanatical non-religious left can say what they want.

 

And let's get back to photography.

 

I, too, think that leaving the sign colorized was over the top.

CLICK HERE FOR MY PHOTOS

The only thing that images like this make me feel is the desire for a B-52 navigation error to result in several carpet bombing runs on Berkeley. You are all nothing but a bunch of pampered college kids who are wasting mommie and daddy's money in protests like this because you are too lazy and stupid to get a job. The average Berkeley resident would be STUNNED to realize how much hatred the rest of the United States out-side of CA feels towards them. We want you to succeed from the Union, and would welcome a popular vote to do so. You don't deserve the protection and oppurtunities this country allows you.

The barbaric acts of the Taliban cannot be used as justification for America's tyranny

On behalf of my relatives who have served in the armed forces and along with my sincere wishes; Fuck you Yee. Seriously, Fuck you and your lack of grammar school education that would inform you that the United States military is run by a civilian government. Maybe the United States should enact immigration policies just like the tyrannical nation you feel we are? Now this is freedom of speech - and it feels good.

Scott, if you want to unleash your usual venom on her for daring to state political views that don't match your own, I don't suppose I can stop you. It's ironic, however, that you despise the Taliban so much when you also propose and support the murder of many thousands of people (bombing Berkeley) simply because they live in a location where not everyone shares your narrow and hateful political views.

 

 

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Reactions

Wow, it seems like I have really triggered off a stream of heated reactions. Please, let me say this. I am not American, but having been here for a number of years, I consider America a dear friend. The September 11 events were painful and everyone was deeply hurt. I do not think that it is wrong for people to be angry, in fact, I was furious myself. I, and so many of the protesters at Berkeley, fully appreciate the efforts of the men and women who fight to protect us. We thank them from the deepest of our hearts. We salute the firemen who gave their lives to protect us. We salute the soldiers who fight to defend the country.

 

Truely, we are indebted to these people and it would be the very last thing on our minds to protest against them. However, we feel that to start a war against a country for the actions of a small cluster of its citizens is unjust. Think of the many thousands who would lose their lives, their homes, their loved ones because of this war. When terrorists attack America, America can retaliate. By retaliating, we feel that we have avenged the loved ones that we have lost. But what can the poor Afghan girl do when she loses her father to a stray American bomb? Had we considered all alternatives before we started indiscriminate bombing?

 

Yesterday, I sent a friend to the airport. He was flying from SFO to JFK. They didn't even ask for his ID as he checked in and then boarded the plane. Whatever happened to increased airport security? Is the government serious about protecting the people against future attacks? Should we delude ourselves into thinking that by bombing Afghanistan we have destroyed all terrorist threats? While these many questions linger, is it right for the government to concentrate the bulk of its efforts on bombing an invisible enemy?

 

Berkeley is not a gathering of radical lunatics. We do not disagree for the sake of disagreeing. While others may consider us to be radical, I feel proud that any discussion in Berkeley, however radical, is always backed by reason, by conviction, and not just a blind splatter of intense passion. While the nation rushed to the streets with war cries, Berkeley pleaded for peaceful alternatives to be considered first. Students standing in the streets with banners saying "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" and "Justice, not vengence. Reason, not passion" make me proud to be a student at Berkeley.

 

I understand that being young students, we do not have the benefit of experience. Our ignorance and idealism certain shows up in what we say, and how we act. But brushing us off as "a bunch of pampered college kids" doesn't really help. We merely try to be a voice of reason. Share your experience, teach us, educate us, so we may learn. But please, also listen to us.

 

Finally, a tribute to the brave men and women who gave their all to protect us and all that we love:

 

/photodb/image-display?photo_id=520039&size=sm/photodb/image-display?photo_id=522546&size=sm

 

Fiat lux. May the light outshine the hatred.

 

 

ps. To avoid lengthening this flame war any longer, this will be the last thing I say on this topic. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree. Let's get back to photography. This is, after all, a photography website.

Would those two holding the sign still have chosen to hold said sign if any of their friends, family, or other loved ones would have perished either in the WTC towers or Pentagon that 11th day in September? Somehow, I feel not.

 

Oh, I should be commenting on the photo...you missed some color on some guy's head below the sign.

Oops! Ok, I fixed the colored head. In case anyone is still interested, it's here.

Photo Technical Comments

The comments on Daniel Taylor were very good. This shot would have worked better in reverse. The protestors look like people who are bored and just decided to take a walk through campus.

 

Content Comments - Where do I start?

 

Fiat Lux: ".... any discussion in Berkeley, however radical, is always backed by reason, by conviction, and not just a blind splatter of intense passion ... But please, also listen to us..."

 

Berkley is becoming known not only for it's liberal views but also it's intolerance of other viewpoints. A quick search on Google shows multiple examples of people being shouted down, by Berkley students, because they held a different viewpoint. This intolerance has even been taken to the point of book burning. Shouting someone down without debate/discussion is not intellectually defending your position.

 

For people to listen to you, you must gain their respect. Listening to them is one way of gaining that respect.

 

Fiat Lux:".... to start a war against a country for the actions of a small cluster of its citizens is unjust ..."

 

I would agree with your statement. The US shouldn't and does not try to punish the civilians and innocent bystanders for the actions of a small group. If the small group happens to be the government of a nation, we go to war with the nation to remove the group from power and prevent threats to our people. Reporters and other human rights watch-groups are monitoring and reporting on the actions of the US military to help keep it in check. The military is waging a war, while specifically trying to prevent civilian loss.

 

Yee Jiun Song: "The barbaric acts of the Taliban cannot be used as justification for America's tyranny."

 

What is the appropriate US response to a government who support the Taliban, the group responsible for killing thousands of its citizens? The military has the job of defending our nation. This means, if someone is going to try to kill us, we will have to kill him. You cannot have a peaceful debate with a government while that government is kill your citizens.

 

The US bombing of the Taliban is not tyranny. Here are some examples of tyranny: The Cuban shot dead because he publicly disagrees with Castro. The farmer in Columbia who must work in the Cocoa fields or his family will be killed by the drug lords. Beating someone severely because their beard is not long enough, Taliban. The torturing of women because they are getting educated, Taliban.

 

People do get upset and tempers flair; nobody really wants to see Berkley blown up as posted above. It would be an ironic twist if Berkley would come under attack from some terrorist group. Would all these protestors be calling for a peaceful resolution while they are being tortured and killed? It is sad to see people who are living under the protection and commitment of our military so easy to protest.

 

Being upset about innocent people being killed, whether US or Afghani, is a terrible thing and should be abhorred. We should also defend our nation to keep the freedom we have.

I think that this is a wonderful example of what a phot should be for one major reason: the passion that it has evoked in the people that have viewed it. It can also mean so many things to different people.

It's spelled "Berkeley" for Christ's sake, Berkeley! And there's a lot more intelligent people there than at photo.net. It's true, "You cannot have a peaceful debate with a government while that government is kill your citizens." Oh, and "mommie" isn't a word. Yes, Mr. Eaton, to Hell with people "wasting" money on an education.

As documentary, good photo. The red color is just right. It's the right color too ;-). It took me back to those days when I hung out on Sproul Plaza 20 years ago and joined the occasional protest.

Yee Jian Song wrote:

Berkeley is not a gathering of radical lunatics. We do not disagree for the sake of disagreeing. While others may consider us to be radical, I feel proud that any discussion in Berkeley, however radical, is always backed by reason, by conviction . . .

Surely you jest.

While Berkeley may have been on the side of the angels in the Free Speech Movement of the early 1960s, it very early degenerated into political theatre. Political theatre so rigid, in fact, it makes Kabuki look like improv. Most people can't understand it, either. People do disagree for that sake of disagreeing, in the 1960s, 1980s, and now. People do elevate petty spats to the greateast national importance. Everybody pushes their own agenda on every cause, appropirate or not.

The Sparticists hate the Maoists . . .

That students should come to the defense of a government that would summarily dismiss 54% of the Cal student body should the Taliban wrest hold of the government of University of California is a black mark on these protestors and those who support them. The protestors would have to eliminate that URL on the bottom because the Taliban also banned the Internet.

Hint: An act of war was committed 9/11. Appropriate responses to acts of war include bombing. A non-violent solution was not appropriate.

If anybody goes Ghandi on me, just remember what he said and did throughout his life applied to colonial and civil disputes; that is, internecine dispites, not international disputes.

Actions I'd like to see Cal students take up:

Committee In Solidarity with the People Outraged by Daniel Pearl's Murder. (CISPODPM)

People for the Solution of Hindu-Muslim Subcontinental Conflict (PeSH-MSC)

Oh yeah, but those require real solutions.

Comments like the one from Scott shows that Talibans aren't the only fanatics out there...

I'm sorry but I do have to question your statement that, although you do protest the US actions, the true purpose of the upload was to have your photo eval. Your a student in a country that has had several thousand of it's people killed by a finatical rogue goverment in concert with a terrorist group. To think you would recieve different post from such a US dominated board is, I believe, simply not true.

 

I would like to point out to you that many of the folks your photo hurts are not so much for war, or killing to avenge, as much as to respond to save lives. The lives saved by my countries actions are not just american, but people from scores of countries who will have their people killed by heartless terrorist if they are allowed to continue. At some point even the most peaceful and educated person must acknowledge this.

 

As hard as it is for young idealistic men and women such as yourself to understand, military action is sometimes the only response in certain situations. In the 1930's-1940's Nazi Germany, Italy and Japan could only be dealt with force. Sadly, any other response was not possible. From your position of comfort it may be very dificult for you to understand the magnitude of the current threat to not only America, but the world in general. I do wish you well and hope that as a person who advocates peace that you one day realize that the pursuit of a peaceful world can not always be obtained by simply protesting all military actions and that often the price for peace is someones life.

It drives me nuts to see this debate raged on in photo.net. I lost two family members in the WTC and I still don't care for the bombing of anyone anywhere.

 

It behooves us all to support the University and it's culture, be it protest, or whatever, anyone who say's that we ought ot dismiss the message by virtue of the location and history of the school is just over simplifing their own life at the expense of their intellect, so be it.

 

Cursing at the photographer is plainly rude and I am disappointed that it is allowed here, I see it from Mr. Eaton who is currently the POW photographer and I am most disappointed in the low brow expression of others like him.

 

After the innocents of American aggresion I feel most sorry for the soldiers of America that inflict the violence and perpetuate the ignorant satisfaction of being able to move along through history and do it again, and again, and again, ad nauseum.

 

Soon we will see photos as emotional as those that ended Vietnam, this one is not at that ability, but is an early indicator of that trend.

rob

The only thing that images like this make me feel is the desire for a B-52 navigation error to result in several carpet bombing runs on Berkeley. You are all nothing but a bunch of pampered college kids who are wasting mommie and daddy's money in protests like this because you are too lazy and stupid to get a job.

 

What if educated, employed tax-paying non-students strongly disagree with and protest against the bombing? Are we to be derided in the same dismissive way?

 

Such outbursts display a breathtaking ignorance of the complexities of international politics and terrorism. Do you really think bombing a desperately poor country into the ground is going to stop the terrorists, most of whom aren't even Afghani nationals? By early December over 3,500 civilians had been killed by allied bombing raids in Afghanistan. Now, SEVEN MILLION remain at risk of starvation. But then they're not American citizens, so they don't really matter.

 

I can understand the desire to exact revenge, but the history of such actions is not successful. You only have to look at the Israel-Palestine conflict and Northern Ireland to see that "an eye for an eye" will never work.

 

Try reading a bit more widely, Scott, you might even learn something. You could start with Noam Chomsky on The New War Against Terror.

In addition to Mr. Eaton being a racist and full of rage - regardless of what one might think based on his 'peaceful' flower photos - he wants them to SUCCEED from the Union!

You can bomb the world to bits,

 

But you can't bomb it to peace.

 

Words by Michael Franti